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Spark-gap + Step-down-transformer = OU?

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  • Spark-gap + Step-down-transformer = OU?

    I have always been fascinated by the ability of electrical components like resistors, capacitors and inductors to be connected in not just one way but two ways, in series and in parallel. But its not until recently that I have looked into the underlying formulas to determine how to utilize it in a favorable fashion energy-wise, yes I'm that lazy.

    But before I present my idea I would like to elaborate on what the effect might be if there was two ways of adding masses into one, the “ordinary” way m=m1+m2, and a so far “unknown” way m=1/(1/m1+1/m2).

    The formulas I will use are E=½*m*v² for kinetic energy and p=m*v for momentum.

    Assume two masses with equal mass m. Accelerate them when they are added in the “ordinary” way to 2*m. When the acceleration stops they will have speed v, kinetic energy will be E=½*2*m*v² and momentum will be p=2*m*v. Now, rearrange the masses so that they are added in the “unknown” way to ½*m and assume Newton was right in that momentum will always be preserved. This means that to preserve momentum speed has to change like a departing UFO from v to 4*v so that p=2*m*v=½*m*4*v. If the new speed is 4*v the new energy is E=½*½*m*(4*v)²=4*m*v² which is 4 times higher than when the masses are added in the “ordinary” way.

    COP=4.

    Now lets do this with coils. Energy in a coil is E=½*L*I² and the entity corresponding to momentum would be the magnetic flux which is Φ=L*I. A battery, a switch and two windings on the same core are in series. Energize the coil and turn the switch off. Collect the flyback with a diode but just from *one* of the windings (or from both if they are rearranged and combined in parallel). If momentum is preserved, that is, if magnetic flux is preserved, the energy in the flyback is 4 times the input (minus losses) as above.

    I have tried this without success so far, but my switch has either been a 2N3055 transistor which I guess is too slow, or a relay that just generates sparks and get stuck.

    A spark-gap and a step-down transformer would probably do the trick. It seems like most OU-probable circuits have this in them somewhere.

    So I tried another approach. Using the “stingo”-circuit (2N3055/2N2955) to energize a bifilar coil with its windings in series and capturing the flyback in a capacitor with a resistor in parallel as in the first pic I measured the voltage over the capacitor and resistor to 17.1 V. Then I connected one capacitor with a resistor on *each* winding as in the second picture, same type/size of capacitor and resistor and diode for each winding. This has the feeling of the two windings in parallel. I trimmed the circuit slightly to make it draw the same amount as in the first setup. The voltage over each capacitor and resistor was now 11.9 V. This is a slight gain in energy. (Edit: no its not, ill try new setups though...)

    /Hob
    Attached Files
    Last edited by nilrehob; 01-07-2011, 04:21 PM.
    Hob Nilre
    http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

  • #2
    Your reasoning is very good. A while ago I made a thread about a similar concept but which is mechanical.

    http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...entum-law.html

    It makes sense that the flux remains constant so changing L should change I.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, same thing, in my case i need to switch off the current as abrupt as possible to mimic something of an reverse elastic-collision situation.

      /Hob
      Hob Nilre
      http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

      Comment


      • #4
        I think you should search Jerry Voland work too, since he obtain some interesting phenomena with spark. Unfortunately, still clue, not solution.

        Comment


        • #5
          MIT doing it with a capacitor?

          The energy formula is E=½*C*U²
          and the "momentum" formula is Q=C*U

          When the charge Q is constant
          and capacitance C drops
          the voltage U rise.
          What happens to the stored energy?

          YouTube - MIT Physics Demo -- Adjustable Capacitor with Dielectric

          /Hob
          Hob Nilre
          http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

          Comment


          • #6
            @nilrehob: there's something we forgot. The parameter we adjust, windage, in order to change inductance has actually a squared relationship in our inductance equation and a linear one in flux. Flux isn't L*I but L*I/N. Here are some relevant equations for a straight solenoid:



            That means if we for instance halve the amount of windings the current would double so flux is conserved. However our inductance will actually drop 4 times, not 2. Compensating for the increased square amperage in the energy equation.

            In other words the windings do not have a linear relationship with mass. But a squared one. So this defeats our point. However there are other parameters that do have this linear relation. Area and permeability. If you can change those during operation the change would directly be reflected in an equal change of current through conservation of flux. And since they have a linear relation in both the flux and energy equation you will thus see an increase in inductive energy.
            Last edited by broli; 01-08-2011, 01:00 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              @broli

              Yes, youre right, the inductance is not added as H+H when sharing core.
              This is however only to our benefit,
              as theoretical COP is Hin/Hout. (1)

              This comes from COP = Eout/Ein = ½*Hout*Iout² / ½*Hin*Iin² (2)
              since (if) flux is constant Hout*Iout = Hin*Iin (3)
              from (3) you have Iout = Hin*Iin / Hout (4)
              put that into (2) and you have ½*Hout*(Hin*Iin / Hout)² / ½*Hin*Iin² (5)
              simplify this and you get Hin/Hout (1)

              But maybe I need to digest your point some more.

              /Hob
              Last edited by nilrehob; 01-08-2011, 12:47 PM.
              Hob Nilre
              http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

              Comment


              • #8
                @broli

                So if you have a 6-filar
                put 2 winds in series, thats for input
                and 4 winds in parallel, for output
                might do the trick?

                /Hob
                Hob Nilre
                http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nilrehob View Post
                  @broli

                  So if you have a 6-filar
                  put 2 winds in series, thats for input
                  and 4 winds in parallel, for output
                  might do the trick?

                  /Hob
                  The problem will persist. As you said, digest more what I said. It's a mathematical problem. When you decrease windings 2, 3 or 4 times the current will indeed rise 2, 3 and 4 times. However energy is dependent on windings squared times current squared. So mathematically you can write:



                  From conservation of flux we know that the product N*I remains constant. So that means energy will remain constant as well no matter the combination.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    @broli

                    Doh!

                    So lets use a toroid with a ferrite core, all flux is now in the core, in the Weiss-domains of the ferrite,
                    now this has to work, please...

                    BTW, doesn't ferrite have a kind of delay for getting magnetized and demagnetized? Whats it called? If there is one wouldn't it dictate the maximum switch-off-time?

                    /Hob
                    Hob Nilre
                    http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well, tomorrow I plan to make a toroidal transformer.
                      I don't have a proper or fancy core so I'm going to use a plastic-coated "garden-wire" which has some iron in it it seems.
                      Maybe I shall do the core as a torus instead, with the coil-wires inside?
                      First wind the coil-wires like an air-core coil, and then wind the garden-wire around it?

                      /Hob
                      Hob Nilre
                      http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        When you use a core you change the game, because then you start to play with permeability. Permeability change would truly change energy because it has both a linear relation with flux and energy. But the problem is that we can't instantly switch between permeabilities like we could between winding amount...or can we? For instance a ferromagnetic material losses its magnetic properties when it's heated above a point. You will gain energy through conservation of flux, the heat will go nowhere, so in theory you can extract the increased inductive energy, recapture the heat and start all over. But using heat would be terribly inefficient.
                        Last edited by broli; 01-08-2011, 07:43 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Different layers of coil-wire and garden-wire will change the permeability.
                          I guess the coil-part with the smaller induction H shall have the greater amount of core?
                          Or do I have it backwards again?

                          /Hob
                          Hob Nilre
                          http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nilrehob View Post
                            Different layers of coil-wire and garden-wire will change the permeability.
                            I guess the coil-part with the smaller induction H shall have the greater amount of core?
                            Or do I have it backwards again?

                            /Hob
                            Does H stand for Henry or the H field?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I meant Henry, sorry for being unspecific.

                              /Hob
                              Hob Nilre
                              http://www.youtube.com/nilrehob

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