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Turion 02-18-2012 07:17 AM

3 Battery Generating System
All things must come to an end sometime, in order to make way for that which is new.


garrypm 02-18-2012 08:43 AM

Hi Dave,

Hope you had a look at the link I posted in tesla switch.


FRC 02-18-2012 09:15 AM

Hi Dave, I did a second attempt since I posted on the Lockridge thread. This
time I used the small motor instead of the larger one I used the first time. Now
the bad battery went to zero volts instead of rising. More interesting results
the first time. Will try again.


FRC 02-18-2012 12:46 PM

Replication success
Replication success or kind of. This time I used a third much smaller sla for the
bad battery. I observed everything that you have described and shown in your
videos, load on bad battery speeds up motor, load on motor increases bad battery output, etc. The hard part seems to be finding the right "bad battery".
Could there be some way to replace this part of the system ? Capacitor bank ?
Or some kind of circuit, maybe attached to another good battery ? I think you
have something more here than what someone claimed at Overunity.com that
it was just the arcing or sparking of the motor brushes causing this. I think
this might turn out to be an important discovery if the bugs can be ironed out
so that it will work on a consistent basis. Thanks for telling us about it Dave.


FRC 02-18-2012 03:05 PM

I checked out Garrypm's Tesla thread link to the tinman's L.A.G. motor. He seems to be getting similar results when in oscillation mode. I think he is using three good batteries. He claims that you can not do this with a regular off the shelf motor.without major modifications. But you have proved him wrong. An off the shelf motor does work here. Have you tried this with three good batteries ? Or will it not work that way ?


FRC 02-18-2012 03:13 PM

Another question
Dave have you tried charging a fourth good battery as a load on the bad battery ? I think you would have to use diodes or a FWBR.


wrtner 02-18-2012 04:41 PM

Your three battery idea reminds me of this:

SkyWatcher 02-18-2012 10:11 PM

Hi folks, again, this looks very similar to magnacoasters first videos.
Where he had a bedini type rotor energizer feeding radiant pulses to a dead battery i believe, then he would hook a standard inverter to his car battery and would try to run medium loads like a power drill and the inverter shut off sounds and lights would kick in.
Then when he turned on his energizer and then tried to run the loads off the inverter connected to his large dead battery, it would run the drill and many other loads.
So something similar to this setup is happening inside the battery with this setup.
I don't think the 3 batteries are needed in all setups, there is an effect here inside the battery that needs to be figured out, I bet bedini knows all about it and I bet the Watson machine used a similar principle.
peace love light

FRC 02-19-2012 06:27 AM

Thanks Turion
Thanks Dave for replying with all the extra info. This definitely works. My good
batteries returned to their full charge after resting for a while. That last test I ran for well over half an hour. I want to try different possible configurations
now. I will try my first two bad batteries in parallel first, then go from there.
This does seem to be the Tesla switch principle working. Lets hope more
people start messing around with this so we can uncover the secret of the
"right bad battery". Thanks again for revealing this.


Joit 02-19-2012 11:37 AM

A few Observations what I got from bad Batteries.
When i charge them on a Bedini charger, my Rotor indicates if the Battery has less or more Resistance in it, with the noise what the Coils make.
Bad Gel Batteries have mostly less Resistance in herself. The measured Resistance is may different.
Once it happened to me, that one from the bad Gel-Batteries had little Resistance, and as I did start to charge it, it was like, the Current did break like through a Barrier and the Accu had less Resistance again, rised fast in Voltage and did not keep charge anymore.
At Lead Acid Batteries it looks like its the other Way around, once i damaged the Transformer inside a Charger, it did overhead because of the high Resistance from a LA Batterie, what was a few Years outside Summer and Winter.

But the Effect i see here seems like is, as if the 3rd Battery is kinda a Load, what change its Resistance with the State from its charge from low to higher, as more Current runs through,

FRC 02-19-2012 04:17 PM

Well I did not try the two batteries in parallel. Instead I tried the battery that worked after draining it. It worked for a while but then stopped and the voltage was at about 12.3v. Then I put it on a 2 amp charger and now it was taking a charge whereas before it did not. I think somehow it might be restored now. Then I tried a battery that had been in my car which I had replaced with a new one. After taking a while to start the motor, it worked for a while also but when it became charged it quit. Seems like you need a battery that will not take a full charge, but still has to be able to take some charge. Adding loads also helps
to keep the battery from taking too much charge. We need something that can mimick these qualities. Maybe a motor with a cap or caps, that can take a charge (at the right rate) and then send the rest into the load of the motor.
Maybe some kind of cap pulser like Bits and Bytes has.


LutherG 02-19-2012 06:13 PM

Hello Everyone,

I've been playing with this setup for the last 3 weeks before I have had to charge the first 2 batteries. In this time, I've used a 12-volt CIM motor like those used in robotics, model FP801-005 and a Pacific Scientific motor rated at 2.5HP, 124-volts @ 18amps. The PacSci motor is from a treadmill - so it has a shaft that comes out of each end of the motor... With the differential of only 12 volts, I've used welding gloves and my hands to apply a load to the PacSci shaft and there is so much torque developed that it literally smokes the gloves...

I am more inclined to think there is something going on in the magnetic domain than just a charging effect from pulsing, though I don't have the equipment to see what the magnetic fields are doing. Maybe we can some up with some way to see? A Hall maybe? I think its interesting how there is a sudden "switch" and the motor jumps up in rpm. My first thought is that its a magnetic domain switching? I don't know enough about this to understand why the instant increase in RPM. I would think that if a battery is slowly gaining in charge, that the motor would slowly gain in rpm but that's not what happens here... it leaps up in rpm as you can see in the video...

Also, the increase in load on battery 3 seems to relieve the generated power in the motor which would normally be fighting the incoming power according to Peter Lindemann's DVD "Electric Motor Secrets"... The goal here is to pull as much of the generated power out of the motor as we can thereby lessening the motor's voltage requirement to run. Plus the faster the motor turns, the more it generates... you stairstep your way up... load on battery 3, more load on motor, more load on battery 3, more load on the motor... The motor load does NOT have to be mechanical. It can be a nose or belt coupled motor being used as a generator adding more load to it. That in turn will create the mechanical load on the first motor...

BTW, that's my video at Valerifon1 that David posted the link to. I shot this while out in the garage waiting for a load of clothes for work late at night.. :D I hadn't planned on sharing it with the "masses" else I might have been a little more clear about what was going on wth it... It was originally just meant for a couple of people but then decided to share it with the group... I really didn't want to post anything until I had it really and completely working... which I do not yet....

My initial thoughts about this circuit were that as the battery gains some charge, it gains enough that it can send something back across the motor to batteries 1 & 2. If you read Leedskalnin's book on magnets he explains that current, even in a DC circuit, flows both ways even if synchronously... In our discussions, David said he thought the voltage lowering on the meter was showing the difference between the 24-volt stack and the 12-volt battery. That may be the case - I'm not certain of that yet. There are several things we're not certain about - hence the thread here. Then, once the motor is turning, the voltage continues to drop...

Now, about this voltage drop. Since the battery is a bad battery that won't hold a charge, its apparent to me that there is some kind of shorting or bridging going on between the plates of one or more of the cells in the battery and the result is that the battery is discharging itself. What this means to me, is that there is a resistance between the positive and negative plates and this is not far off to seeing the positive pole as the plate in a vacuum tube, and the negative pole as the cathode. The resistance between them, allows each side to "see" just a bit of the other. This is like putting a resistance between the signal path and ground to increase gain in a vacuum tube circuit. At least, in my mind this is how I relate to this.

Since my 3rd battery kept wanting to recover, I put the dome light between the terminals to mimic what is happening inside the battery to some degree. It did help. Now I'm thinking of using a variable resistance across the terminals of battery 3 in an attempt to see if it can be tuned. (I will also try it in series with battery 3). Being that there is a little negative bias on the positive terminal and a little positive bias on the negative terminal of battery 3 due to the inner resistance bridging due to the material falling off the plates and shorting the cell, I then wondered if this little bit of negative bias (like the grid in a vacuum tube) is causing a polarity flip in the motor and I wonder if THIS is why the motor suddenly leaps upward in RPM?

My batteries took 2 days to get back to original voltage but they are now sitting at the voltage they were at when I started this run. In an earlier video I made of this setup running, they did not fully recover - but that run was done after playing with and running the setup with 2 different motors for almost 3 weeks...

So this is pretty much the bulk of where we are with this setup at this point. Other things I want to try, are putting a variable resistance across battery 3 to see if I can help tune-in what might be happening in David's original bad battery... and of course, trying other "bad" batteries in position 3. I have one more out in the garage that is sitting at 1.8 volts that might be a good candidate... this setup has the "bad" habit of fixing bad batteries...

It may be a resonant system that we retune by adjusting the load on the DC motor which in turn keeps the voltage in a range that can accomodate the inverter...



nueview 02-19-2012 06:51 PM

I built the following circuit to test a concept of Don Smith it is not the same as your motor as it drains the battery of any current such that it will not run anything yet it retains its voltage to a major extent.
it was designed to use the base collector as a diode rectifier to collect any reverse charge pulse from the oscillators and it has run for more than 38 days before i stopped it lighting a LED the whole time.
though it is not the same it may have some clues for someone here as a reverse action to what you are seeing so want to pass it along.

Flip-Flop Double Joule Thief - YouTube


ewizard 02-19-2012 08:20 PM

Nice work Turion! I did some things similar about a year ago. Don't have time now to write more - just skimmed your info but will check back in later. I really think there is something good to this to further investigate.

Neight 02-19-2012 10:29 PM

Hey guys, Great thread!
I am poking through my batteries for a bad one that fits the description.
I have been testing one for a few days, attempting to charge it up with an SSG then draining it with a small load.
It is doing some odd stuff, like reading over 12V when on the charge side of the SSG, but immediately after you remove it, it drops to maybe 2V. When I put a joule thief on it as a load with 3 series LEDs, it will run the LEDs and the voltage drops to less than a volt.
is this what I am looking for, or should I move on to another one?
(almost forgot to mention) it is a 12V 4Ah battery, and my run batteries will be 12V 7.5Ah, if that makes some difference.
I am interested in giving this a shot, and might start with the AA version mentioned by Stealth.
Any advice is greatly appreciated!

clueless 02-20-2012 06:46 PM

Some random rhoughts on this 3 battery setup
First let me say I'm intrigued by this arrangement. I seem to remember that the load on the motor and the third battery needs to be closely matched for best results. I wonder if matching the motor and third battery in either capacitance or resistance would help.
As I was reading this thread I had another thought about using a generator instead of a motor. The generator I'm referring to was in use in US cars until about 1965. The ones where the headlights would dim at an idle and dependent on rpm to make current.
Turion thanks for posting this as it would seem to have potential if nothing else using regular LA batteries in a solar setup instead of the more expensive deep cycle. Exhaust those batteries and at "worse" recondition them. Speaking of deep cycle batteries would those make a difference as the first two batteries in this set up?

Neight 02-21-2012 02:33 AM


Originally Posted by Turion (Post 180701)
If that is a lead acid battery, I'd say it's an excellent candidate. I don't have any experience with having ANY success with other than lead acid batteries. There is just something about them that I don't think other batteries have, so I will stay away from anything else. That's my advice, but this is all about experimentation.

I got 10 batteries that were in the trash pile. Four of them I have restored to working usable condition using this setup. The others I am working my way through, trying to find a battery that will mimic my original setup. If you can find a battery that sits at low voltage and WILL NOT TAKE A CHARGE, you are probably Golden...at least for a while. I think eventually it might even restore a completely sulfated battery if there is any lead at all left in the plates.

Excellent, thank you Turion! It is a Lead Acid battery. I found it in my house when I moved in, it was in an old security system control panel that hadn't been in use for years. I have been trying to get it to take a charge with my SSG for quite some time with no luck. I need to pick up a 12DC motor somewhere to run this experiment, but short of that, I am eager to give this a try!
I will see what I can come up with, and will post my results!
I am pretty excited to see what comes out of this, and thanks for sharing!

Neight 02-21-2012 05:50 AM

That is what I meant, I have made several brushless motors, but I don't have any on hand with wound rotor and brushes. I might try to hook something up through a simple brushless motor, but ultimately I want to stay true to the current tests, and that means I need to find a working motor somewhere.
would I need 24VDC motor, since I will be using two 12V batteries to power it?
I need to re-read your first post, but I do get the concept, and I am sure I can find a DC motor easy enough, though I might have to wait a bit, if I have to buy one.
Thanks for the heads up, I am not always great on details in my posts, but I did mean a brushed DC motor :)

FRC 02-21-2012 06:46 AM

Here is the motor I have been using (video made by kcarring). I also use a smaller 12v fan as a load. I have retried the battery that seemed to get fixed
and it still works when drained. It did not get fixed completely, but is better than it was. Also tried another battery and the process worked for a while.

12volt DC motor - Bedini Mod? - YouTube


Neight 02-21-2012 07:17 AM


Originally Posted by FRC (Post 180917)
Here is the motor I have been using (video made by kcarring). I also use a smaller 12v fan as a load. I have retried the battery that seemed to get fixed
and it still works when drained. It did not get fixed completely, but is better than it was. Also tried another battery and the process worked for a while.

12volt DC motor - Bedini Mod? - YouTube


I am glad you posted this! I completely forgot I have a few 12DC PC fans. They are brushless, but it gave me something to try tonight.
The bad battery that I am using wouldn't take any thing more than 3.5V on my SSG, and as soon as I connected any load at all to it, even a joule thief, it would drop down to 1.5V or less, and die in a hurry.
when it is on the SSG charging, it would read 11-12V charge.

I hooked everything up as per Turion's first post (fan connected to pos of battery 1 and 3, neg of 1 connected to pos of 2, and neg of 2 connected to neg of 3) and the fan started right away, which I understand may not be a good thing, but oddly enough the bad battery (bat 3) is reading 17V and climbing at the moment when it is under load. when I remove the fan, I now get 4V and dropping, instead of the 3.5V I had seen on it previously as a high mark. Not sure what to make of it yet, but I am looking to connect a load to bat 3 and see what happens next :)
The fan is running, though no where near full power yet, and it has some LED's in it, which will flash off every few minutes. the fan doesn't seem to change speed when it happens, though it is hard to tell. Not sure what that means either. I will leave the test running for a while, monitor all three bat voltages, and post what happens.
Thanks for making that post FRC, you got me started at least!

I have connected a light bulb I pulled out of a drill press that stopped working to bat 3, to see what happens. With the bulb connected, The voltage on bat 3 drops to 14.5V and sort of stabilizes, though it does still show it climbing slowly. Batteries 1 and 2 don't seem to notice the extra load at all, and in fact, bat 1 gained a few mV after the bulb was connected. I do not get much light at all out of the bulb mind you, but it does glow ever so slightly...
Again, not sure if any of this even means anything, but I am trying to document it, in case it is helpful in any way :thumbsup:

Neight 02-21-2012 09:03 AM


Originally Posted by Turion (Post 180935)
I think you will find that battery one will hold its own. It is usually the second battery of the two in series (the one with the neg connected to the neg of battery 3) that tends to drop in voltage. You will get some charging of batt 3 and then it will level off. At this point the two batteries will hold level for a while and then #2 will begin to lose a little charge. This is when I will shut it down and allow my batteries one and two to recover. If you push it too far, they won't. The longest I have had to wait for full recovery is two days. But I have been running loads on battery three for "free" during the time it was running. My next attempt will be to switch my motor to between the two NEGATIVES at this point and see if I can flip the polarity of the batteries back the other way. Run it this way for a while, and then go back to splitting the positives again. Once that polarity has flipped and run that way for a little while, that's when we lose the ability of the system to generate power without USING power. Getting it to sustain the power production without using power requires a VERY SPECIAL battery in the third position. You need one that will still let current flow, but will NOT accept a charge AT ALL. Totally sulfated!!! This will be very hard to find. Possibly switching the motor to between the negatives and then back to between the positives will extend the power production window. I don't know. That's what I will be working on tomorrow, among other things.

You may find that this setup "fixes" your bad battery. I have 'fixed" several. LOL It really ticks me off!


So far, my results seem to be more or less fitting the profile here. Battery 3 did pretty well stabilize at around 12.5V and the other two batteries drained a tiny bit, bat 2 more than 1, so I removed power, and placed battery 3 under a load to drain. Battery 3 did drop back down to 4V again, and when I put a joule thief with a few LED's on it, it dropped down to 1V pretty quick, though it is still running the joule thief nicely. It's kind of funny seeing that big of a battery running a small joule thief with 3 series LED's and not getting full light out of them, but they are lit, and I will leave it go until bat's 1 and 2 are no longer going up, and until bat 3 is dead again. Might take some time to drain bat 3 with such a small load, but I will test again once it is done :)

I look forward to seeing what happens when you split the negatives, sounds like an interesting couple of tests you have in front of you :thumbsup:
I will keep testing and updating as I have more info

FRC 02-21-2012 10:09 AM

Glad that the post helped. I should start trying smaller loads on battery 3 also.
I have a lot of 12v computer fans and should be using leds also. The reason
for smaller loads is that I go from one 12v fan then try a 12v ceramic heater
and this usually kills the process very fast. Instead I should be trying to extend each run longer. I also have noticed that battery 2 has dropped a bit also. All
in all, we do have free energy happening here and it is very fascinating. Hope
more members try this so more information comes out with different variations,
as you have done Neight. That way we will all find out what works best.


LutherG 02-21-2012 05:59 PM


Originally Posted by Turion (Post 180902)
All the motors that Luther and I have used so far have been wound rotor and wound stator 12 volt DC. No PM (permanent magnet) motors. They may work, but I don't know for sure.


Hi Guys,

Actually, the CIM motor I'm using and the Pacific Scientific motor are both permanent magnet DC motors with brushes and commutator. My next test setup will be with 2 of these 2.5HP PacSci motors nose coupled together.

I'll drive lights off the second motor to create the mechanical load on the first motor... I may even try a dimmer switch of some kind to tweak the adjustment to keep battery 3 in range for the inverter... What would be really interesting is if we can route some of the generated power from the second motor back to batteries 1 & 2...

I also want to take a moment to thank John Bedini for this circuit and for generously releasing it on his pages. This is where I first became aware of this circuit and became reaquainted with it when David first appeared on Peswiki... This is an awesome circuit with many possibilities!

Great posts guys!


clueless 02-22-2012 09:07 PM

Turion or anybody else who has experimented
with this, have you considered matching the 3rd battery to the motor? Does that 3rd "bad" battery act as a capacitor? If it does would the motor capacitance be a factor?
This set up fascinates me for several reasons. It doesn't cost an arm and leg to replicate, it seems simple enough and has just a few variables. The other thing that stands out is from the testimony this system does real work. Something we can use to make something move is real work.
Has anybody tried smaller batteries like 6 volt lantern batteries or "D"/"C" batteries non rechargable?
Thanks again for the information.

clueless 02-22-2012 09:43 PM

Thanks Turion for that reply
What I was asking is if the size of the motor and the 3rd battery size has any influence on the operation of the unit.
I was wondering if the 3rd battery was function in some manner like a capacitor.
Just curious what the secret to battery 3 is.
I may try this with a smaller setup as I don't have room for a larger one.

LutherG 02-22-2012 10:17 PM


Originally Posted by Turion (Post 181232)
I have only been able to get it to work with lead acid batteries. You're welcome to try something else, and it would be good to eliminate other types of batteries as possibilities, because that would give us even MORE information.

If you read what we've been saying, you MUST match the load on battery three to the load on the motor. You do this by putting a load on the motor and then adding small loads to battery three and waiting. The second you add a load to battery three, the motor will speed up. If you wait a few minutes it will speed up AGAIN if the load is matched. If not, keep adding or subtracting loads until you get a match.

Hi David,

Waiting for the motor to speed up a second time is something I haven't tried yet... Usually, once it has sped up, the voltage has dropped either below or to around the 10-Volt range so I've been adjusting the load on the motor to bring the voltage on battery 3 back up into range needed to support the inverter...

So this will be the next thing I do with this system and I'll switch to lighter loads to see if I can get my system to replicate this behavior. Thanks for mentioning that again.



SkyWatcher 02-23-2012 12:20 AM

Hi folks, I have a dead car battery, though it didn't work well because the plates, etc. are bulging the sides of the battery out.
I also have a 6 volt 4.5AH SLA that I knew was very dead and sulphated, so i used that as a third battery and used 24 volts, 2-12 volt 7Ah SLA for input.
Using a small 12 volt motor splitting the positives, it gradually started rotating while 6 volt battery is around 16 volts and if i put finger load on shaft it drops to around 10 volts.
Another thing, the motor periodically stops for awhile while 3rd battery voltage rises and then for no apparent reason, it will start rotating again.
And when i put a car tail light bulb on 3rd battery as load, the motor rotates much faster, though i do see the input batteries 1 and 2 dropping in voltage, though they do recover fairly well, not sure what to make of it so far.
peace love light

FRC 02-23-2012 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by SkyWatcher (Post 181264)
Hi folks, I have a dead car battery, though it didn't work well because the plates, etc. are bulging the sides of the battery out.
I also have a 6 volt 4.5AH SLA that I knew was very dead and sulphated, so i used that as a third battery and used 24 volts, 2-12 volt 7Ah SLA for input.
Using a small 12 volt motor splitting the positives, it gradually started rotating while 6 volt battery is around 16 volts and if i put finger load on shaft it drops to around 10 volts.
Another thing, the motor periodically stops for awhile while 3rd battery voltage rises and then for no apparent reason, it will start rotating again.
And when i put a car tail light bulb on 3rd battery as load, the motor rotates much faster, though i do see the input batteries 1 and 2 dropping in voltage, though they do recover fairly well, not sure what to make of it so far.
peace love light

Thanks for trying a 6v for battery three. I was wondering if this would work
myself, but do not have a six volt battery on hand that I could try.


FRC 02-23-2012 04:56 PM

I saw this on the Tesla Switch thread. It does look very similar. Maybe they
came up with a circuit to mimic the third battery. Would be nice if it made to
market without being suppressed.


nvisser 02-23-2012 08:34 PM

They use 24V batteries on both sides. No tesla switch configiration.
The system was comprised of a series-wound, brushed, DC motor (slightly modified) powered by one bank of two 12-Volt batteries (102 Ah) wired in series for a 24-Volt output. The company says the back-EMF is harvested into a second, identical battery bank, which is also wired in series. These two banks are periodically cycled, trading places in the circuit, and the net charge stays essentially the same, across both banks. The optimized cycling of power and storing of the back-EMF are all controlled by a proprietary circuit board and software developed by the inventor. The motor shaft is connected directly to the shaft of the AC generator, which spins at 3,000 rpm to produce 5 kW of power at 50 Hz, 220-V.

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