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#1
08-04-2018, 12:00 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 339
Physicists lost reality in Mathematics

Physicists lost reality in Mathematics
a)
1905 - Einstein involved negative time in* SRT
( nobody knew what negative time really was)
b)
1908 - Minkowski* said that Einstein's* equations look ''ugly''
And he gave beautiful mathematical* solution changing
Einstein's ''ugly'' negative time into a positive time.
Minkowski* explained his solution as a* ''space-cone''
Today professors say to students:
''you cannot be physicists if you don't understand* Minkowski's
beautiful mathematical solution''*
( but nobody explains* what ''space-cone''* or 4-D* really is )
c)
Then in 1919* Kaluza and* O.Klein* involved* 5-D
And* in 1969* ''string''- physicists involved 11-D, 27-D, M-D*
These* super - D* have never been observed, but physicists believe
that they are on the right way

You cannot do more complex arithmetic if you don't know what* 2+2 = 4
and if you don't know what 4-D really* is,* then more complex dimensions
are only* mathematical play for mathematicians
====
a) Classic view: dimension = direction
There are Descartes' three dimensions in space as
three directions in space. The point where all directions
are united shows place where object is.
We don't need more dimension, 3-D is enough to solve problem.
Looking on watch we know at what time object was in this point.

b) Minkowskki view:
there are four dimensions in space as four direction in space
but this ''space'' is not ordinary, it is very specific - '' an absolute spacetime''.
In this ''absolute spacetime'' we don't know the point and time
where object is exactly
=====
Attached Images
 Eternity and Time.jpg (73.0 KB, 2 views)
__________________

Last edited by socratus; 08-04-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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#2
08-04-2018, 12:30 AM
 spacecase0 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 223
I run into people that claim that math is more critical than reality all the time.
drives me nuts.
and I have not yet found a mathematical solution for the issue.
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#3
08-04-2018, 12:41 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 339
Quote:
 Originally Posted by spacecase0 I run into people that claim that math is more critical than reality all the time. drives me nuts. and I have not yet found a mathematical solution for the issue.
Maybe this problem is not mathematical but psychological;
''Old habits die hard''
===
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Last edited by socratus; 08-04-2018 at 05:55 PM.
#4
08-05-2018, 05:35 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 339
Quote:
 Originally Posted by spacecase0 I run into people that claim that math is more critical than reality all the time. drives me nuts. and I have not yet found a mathematical solution for the issue.
When mathematics is going in front of physics
then many surprised things can suddenly appears.
===
” Mathematician may say all that he wants,
but physicist must maintain at least some spark of common sense “
/ Josiah Willard Gibbs /
And Feynman had the same opinion:
” Since the mathematical physicists have taken over, theoretical
physics has gone to pot. The bizarre concepts generated out of
the over use and misinterpretation of mathematics would be funny
if it were not for the tragedy of the waste in time, manpower, money,
and the resulting misdirection”
====================
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#5
08-05-2018, 03:55 PM
 wayne.ct Silver Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 526
Minkowski

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Some people have the ability to talk fast and don't always make sense. They put forth a bunch of claims as if they were facts and what happens then? If you are skeptical, you question the claims and facts. And, if you are gullible, you accept the claims and facts at face value. Is there a middle ground? If you are willing to accept such a thing, there are shades of grey. If you tend toward absolutes, there is only true and false, black and white, light and darkness.

IMO, there are big egos that think they are right and you cannot question the truthfulness of what they assert. This is typical of humanists. They thing, say and apparently believe that if the carbon based life forms are allowed enough time (and space?) they can solve all mysteries and understand all of reality. If you don't buy that theory you are forced to accept that the CBLFs are not god-like and there is some sort of super being. Does it really boil down to one's personal experience, education and DNA?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Do your own experiment in the real or thought universe and base your life and behavior on the results. What other choice do you have? Live a life of ignorance?

So called main line physics has lost its bearings and it is largely the focus on mathematics that is the cause. I agree on that, Socratus, if that is your view.
__________________
There is a reason why science has been successful and technology is widespread. Don't be afraid to do the math and apply the laws of physics.
#6
08-05-2018, 10:56 PM
 spacecase0 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 223
Quote:
 Originally Posted by socratus Maybe this problem is not mathematical but psychological; ''Old habits die hard'' ===
clearly it is a psychological issue,
I was trying to point out that it was not a math problem by showing that you can't solve social issues with with math.
I like math and all, use it when it applies,
but I don't get lost in it either
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#7
08-06-2018, 05:27 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 339
Quote:
 Originally Posted by wayne.ct Some people have the ability to talk fast and don't always make sense. They put forth a bunch of claims as if they were facts and what happens then? If you are skeptical, you question the claims and facts. And, if you are gullible, you accept the claims and facts at face value.
Science is built up of facts, as a house is with stones.
But a collection of facts is no more a science than
a heap of stones is a house.
/ Henri Poincare /

Quote:
 Originally Posted by wayne.ct So called main line physics has lost its bearings and it is largely the focus on mathematics that is the cause. I agree on that, Socratus, if that is your view.
Why some scientists say physics has gone off the rails
Has the love of "elegant" equations overtaken the desire to describe the real world?
by Dan Falk / Jun.02.2018 / 5:13 PM ET
===
"People can believe in the multiverse all they want — but it's not science."
#
"Theoretical physicists used to explain what was observed.
Now they try to explain why they can't explain what was not observed.
And they're not even good at that."
* /* Sabine Hossenfelder, /
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science...ils-ncna879346
====
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#8
08-07-2018, 04:34 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 339
Einstein wasn't satisfied with his SRT because the theory
doesn't take in account*concept of ''gravity'' and therefore
he* involved masses in the theory.
So, at first, the SRT (as a flat spacetime) was absent of gravity-masses,
(zero gravity) and only later Einstein put masses in this absolute spacetime.

As a result of this idea, the ''absolute spacetime'' changed
its* Pseudo - Euclidean geometry into the beautiful theory
of Riemannian geometry.
Two expeditions from different places,*at one and the same day
proved Einstein's prediction. The triumph of GRT started to run.
On the basis of GRT many new theories were created.

In my opinion most these theories are paradoxical because
the two expeditions showed that only in local region of*
''an absolute spacetime''* (where there was masses of Sun)
the* Riemannian geometry takes place.
Without masses Riemannian geometry would change to
the Pseudo - Euclidean geometry.
=====
P.S.
'' A world without masses, without electrons, without an
electromagnetic field is an empty world. Such an empty
world is flat. But if masses appear, if charged particles
appear, if an electromagnetic field appears then our world
becomes curved. Its geometry is Riemannian, that is, non- Euclidian.''
/ Book 'Albert Einstein', the page 116, by Leopold Infeld. /
===========
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Last edited by socratus; 08-07-2018 at 04:37 AM.
#9
08-08-2018, 05:35 PM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 339
A math point - particle
=
A point particle is an ideal particle (not real image of particle in nature)
A point particle is mathematical idealization of particle heavily used in physics

Definitions:
zero-dimensional, a point- mass, a point- charge, a nonzero charge ,
an elementary particle, with no internal structure, occupies a nonzero volume

Atom:
A proton do have internal structure ( made of quarks - ? ! )
An electron doesn't have internal structure
That is impossible because electron takes part in many different
actions that are reflected by many different laws and formulas
( E=h*f and e^2=ah*c , +E=Mc^2 and -E=Mc^2 ,
E=-me^4/2h^2= -13,6eV and E= ∞ . . . . . )

From far enough a way, any finite-size object will look like and behave as
a point-like object, but when we will come nearer, we discover out our error.

Until today we are still far a way, to see the structure of an electron.
=========
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Last edited by socratus; 08-09-2018 at 03:32 AM.

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