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#1
08-04-2018, 12:00 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
Physicists lost reality in Mathematics

Physicists lost reality in Mathematics
a)
1905 - Einstein involved negative time in* SRT
( nobody knew what negative time really was)
b)
1908 - Minkowski* said that Einstein's* equations look ''ugly''
And he gave beautiful mathematical* solution changing
Einstein's ''ugly'' negative time into a positive time.
Minkowski* explained his solution as a* ''space-cone''
Today professors say to students:
''you cannot be physicists if you don't understand* Minkowski's
beautiful mathematical solution''*
( but nobody explains* what ''space-cone''* or 4-D* really is )
c)
Then in 1919* Kaluza and* O.Klein* involved* 5-D
And* in 1969* ''string''- physicists involved 11-D, 27-D, M-D*
These* super - D* have never been observed, but physicists believe
that they are on the right way

You cannot do more complex arithmetic if you don't know what* 2+2 = 4
and if you don't know what 4-D really* is,* then more complex dimensions
are only* mathematical play for mathematicians
====
a) Classic view: dimension = direction
There are Descartes' three dimensions in space as
three directions in space. The point where all directions
are united shows place where object is.
We don't need more dimension, 3-D is enough to solve problem.
Looking on watch we know at what time object was in this point.

b) Minkowskki view:
there are four dimensions in space as four direction in space
but this ''space'' is not ordinary, it is very specific - '' an absolute spacetime''.
In this ''absolute spacetime'' we don't know the point and time
where object is exactly
=====
Attached Images
 Eternity and Time.jpg (73.0 KB, 2 views)
__________________

Last edited by socratus; 08-04-2018 at 09:50 AM.
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#2
08-04-2018, 12:30 AM
 spacecase0 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 351
I run into people that claim that math is more critical than reality all the time.
drives me nuts.
and I have not yet found a mathematical solution for the issue.
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#3
08-04-2018, 12:41 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
Quote:
 Originally Posted by spacecase0 I run into people that claim that math is more critical than reality all the time. drives me nuts. and I have not yet found a mathematical solution for the issue.
Maybe this problem is not mathematical but psychological;
''Old habits die hard''
===
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Last edited by socratus; 08-04-2018 at 05:55 PM.
#4
08-05-2018, 05:35 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
Quote:
 Originally Posted by spacecase0 I run into people that claim that math is more critical than reality all the time. drives me nuts. and I have not yet found a mathematical solution for the issue.
When mathematics is going in front of physics
then many surprised things can suddenly appears.
===
” Mathematician may say all that he wants,
but physicist must maintain at least some spark of common sense “
/ Josiah Willard Gibbs /
And Feynman had the same opinion:
” Since the mathematical physicists have taken over, theoretical
physics has gone to pot. The bizarre concepts generated out of
the over use and misinterpretation of mathematics would be funny
if it were not for the tragedy of the waste in time, manpower, money,
and the resulting misdirection”
====================
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#5
08-05-2018, 03:55 PM
 wayne.ct Silver Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 535
Minkowski

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Some people have the ability to talk fast and don't always make sense. They put forth a bunch of claims as if they were facts and what happens then? If you are skeptical, you question the claims and facts. And, if you are gullible, you accept the claims and facts at face value. Is there a middle ground? If you are willing to accept such a thing, there are shades of grey. If you tend toward absolutes, there is only true and false, black and white, light and darkness.

IMO, there are big egos that think they are right and you cannot question the truthfulness of what they assert. This is typical of humanists. They thing, say and apparently believe that if the carbon based life forms are allowed enough time (and space?) they can solve all mysteries and understand all of reality. If you don't buy that theory you are forced to accept that the CBLFs are not god-like and there is some sort of super being. Does it really boil down to one's personal experience, education and DNA?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. Do your own experiment in the real or thought universe and base your life and behavior on the results. What other choice do you have? Live a life of ignorance?

So called main line physics has lost its bearings and it is largely the focus on mathematics that is the cause. I agree on that, Socratus, if that is your view.
__________________
There is a reason why science has been successful and technology is widespread. Don't be afraid to do the math and apply the laws of physics.
#6
08-05-2018, 10:56 PM
 spacecase0 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 351
Quote:
 Originally Posted by socratus Maybe this problem is not mathematical but psychological; ''Old habits die hard'' ===
clearly it is a psychological issue,
I was trying to point out that it was not a math problem by showing that you can't solve social issues with with math.
I like math and all, use it when it applies,
but I don't get lost in it either
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#7
08-06-2018, 05:27 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
Quote:
 Originally Posted by wayne.ct Some people have the ability to talk fast and don't always make sense. They put forth a bunch of claims as if they were facts and what happens then? If you are skeptical, you question the claims and facts. And, if you are gullible, you accept the claims and facts at face value.
Science is built up of facts, as a house is with stones.
But a collection of facts is no more a science than
a heap of stones is a house.
/ Henri Poincare /

Quote:
 Originally Posted by wayne.ct So called main line physics has lost its bearings and it is largely the focus on mathematics that is the cause. I agree on that, Socratus, if that is your view.
Why some scientists say physics has gone off the rails
Has the love of "elegant" equations overtaken the desire to describe the real world?
by Dan Falk / Jun.02.2018 / 5:13 PM ET
===
"People can believe in the multiverse all they want — but it's not science."
#
"Theoretical physicists used to explain what was observed.
Now they try to explain why they can't explain what was not observed.
And they're not even good at that."
* /* Sabine Hossenfelder, /
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science...ils-ncna879346
====
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#8
08-07-2018, 04:34 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
Einstein wasn't satisfied with his SRT because the theory
doesn't take in account*concept of ''gravity'' and therefore
he* involved masses in the theory.
So, at first, the SRT (as a flat spacetime) was absent of gravity-masses,
(zero gravity) and only later Einstein put masses in this absolute spacetime.

As a result of this idea, the ''absolute spacetime'' changed
its* Pseudo - Euclidean geometry into the beautiful theory
of Riemannian geometry.
Two expeditions from different places,*at one and the same day
proved Einstein's prediction. The triumph of GRT started to run.
On the basis of GRT many new theories were created.

In my opinion most these theories are paradoxical because
the two expeditions showed that only in local region of*
''an absolute spacetime''* (where there was masses of Sun)
the* Riemannian geometry takes place.
Without masses Riemannian geometry would change to
the Pseudo - Euclidean geometry.
=====
P.S.
'' A world without masses, without electrons, without an
electromagnetic field is an empty world. Such an empty
world is flat. But if masses appear, if charged particles
appear, if an electromagnetic field appears then our world
becomes curved. Its geometry is Riemannian, that is, non- Euclidian.''
/ Book 'Albert Einstein', the page 116, by Leopold Infeld. /
===========
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Last edited by socratus; 08-07-2018 at 04:37 AM.
#9
08-08-2018, 05:35 PM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
A math point - particle
=
A point particle is an ideal particle (not real image of particle in nature)
A point particle is mathematical idealization of particle heavily used in physics

Definitions:
zero-dimensional, a point- mass, a point- charge, a nonzero charge ,
an elementary particle, with no internal structure, occupies a nonzero volume

Atom:
A proton do have internal structure ( made of quarks - ? ! )
An electron doesn't have internal structure
That is impossible because electron takes part in many different
actions that are reflected by many different laws and formulas
( E=h*f and e^2=ah*c , +E=Mc^2 and -E=Mc^2 ,
E=-me^4/2h^2= -13,6eV and E= ∞ . . . . . )

From far enough a way, any finite-size object will look like and behave as
a point-like object, but when we will come nearer, we discover out our error.

Until today we are still far a way, to see the structure of an electron.
=========
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Last edited by socratus; 08-09-2018 at 03:32 AM.
#10
08-22-2018, 03:42 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
About ''real'' imaginary numbers in mathematics
and ''not-real'' imaginary numbers in physics.
#
Imaginary numbers are a fine and wonderful refuge
of the divine spirit almost an amphibian between
being and non-being.
/ Gottfried Leibniz /
#
One might think this means that imaginary numbers
are just a mathematical game having nothing to do
with the real world. From the viewpoint of positivist
philosophy, however, one cannot determine what is real.
All one can do is find which mathematical models
describe the universe we live in. It turns out that
a mathematical model involving imaginary time
predicts not only effects we have already observed
but also effects we have not been able to measure yet
nevertheless believe in for other reasons.
So what is real and what is imaginary?
Is the distinction just in our minds?
* / Stephen Hawking /
#
Pi is not merely the ubiquitous factor in high school
geometry problems; it is stitched across the whole
tapestry of mathematics, not just geometry's little
corner of it. Pi occupies a key place in trigonometry too.
It is intimately related to e, and to imaginary numbers.
Pi even shows up in the mathematics of probability
/ Robert Kanigel /
#
The more science I studied, the more I saw that physics
becomes metaphysics and numbers become imaginary
numbers. The farther you go into science, the mushier
the ground gets. You start to say, 'Oh, there is an order
and a spiritual aspect to science.'
/ Dan Brown /
======
Can imaginary numbers be real in physics ?
Can imaginary numbers show real substance in physics ?
=================================
Attached Images
 Euler =e= i=pi.jpg (3.2 KB, 0 views)
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#11
08-24-2018, 08:29 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
In the real Nature every piece of math is a model of something in Nature.
===
Let's say math describes* nature by transcendental, complex and real numbers.
Let's say physics uses* these transcendental, complex and real numbers to describe nature.
Let's say transcendental numbers must be described not only by the mathematical
formulas but also must have a real image in the physical world.
And if we take the number (pi) then the first thing we have in brain is a circle: c/d=pi=3,14 . . . .
Can quantum particle have geometrical form of circle-membrane ?
=======
Math without physics is med subject.
Physics without Math if dead subject.
======.
Attached Images
 Lincoln.jpg (11.0 KB, 0 views)
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#12
08-25-2018, 09:25 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
In nature, in evolution of nature, in mathematics, in physics . . .
something complex was made from something more simple
Nothing new.
But if we take mathematics then, . . .* the evolution of mathematical nature
didn't start* from natural numbers* 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 . . .
The evolution of Nature started from transcendental and imaginary numbers.
Then complex numbers appeared and at last natural numbers 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 ...
This is a mathematical model of evolution ''something'' in Nature.
(my opinion)
====
Attached Images
 Niels Bohr = 1.jpg (8.1 KB, 1 views)
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Last edited by socratus; 08-25-2018 at 09:27 AM.
#13
08-28-2018, 02:34 AM
 artoj Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 170
Ideolgical March

To create you must first have a real need or reason to do so.

Recreation is what we do when we know that particular creation was successful.

So to recreate, you measure your functioning creation and you commit it to
set of plans, instructions or rules. To be more precise you use mathematics
so the error of poor judgement is minimized.

Now you have a process, you can now call this art a science and the
reproducible is engineered by your accuracy of measure. Thus Mathematics
follow the science, which followed the creativity of what you call artistry,
which in turn was preceded by a reasonable need.

So it follows -
1 Need
2 Art
3 Science
4 Engineering
5 Mathematics

So once you codified and refined this simple process, the bureaucrats and politicians wanted to control it, as they found out it was not that simple, but given enough time and indoctrination it could be accomplished.

So a physiological methodology of deconstruction began and the first target to be destroyed was the visual arts, where the most imaginative were clustered. As you can see it was was second on the list processes. Need can be eventually eliminated when they tell us what we need and we don't question it.

This destruction of the Artist was accomplished fairly quickly, as they took control of the institutions and directed the output to conform to a de-contructionalist agenda, this is what we now know as modern art.

The march of this ideological poison took hold in the US universities and was reborn as Cultural Marxism in the 60's and 70's where the all stem fields were also being infected.

Mathematical Physics had its birth with Einstein and by the same slow march of deconstructions and codification in all the Sciences we arrive at the present "Theoretic Physics" as if it is something we must believe in or you will be cast out the the Scientism Church.

It is now a complete and multi-disciplinary mathematical fantasy land where unicorns pop out of black holes in eleven dimensions by the use of a God equation. The computer revolution has accelerated the disassociation people have with the real world, where every equation can be a pretty pattern on your screen. The feedback loop is now established by the re-enforcement of the unreal via CGI and Hollywood in general, where MSM lies must be believed or you are a racist and evil Nazi.

Regards Arto.

__________________

#14
08-28-2018, 10:32 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
@Thank you, Arto.
=====
To create, at first, you must be.
Then you need a reason to do something.
It means to have a set of laws / rules of mathematics
So it follows -
1 I am (who am I: object / subject ?)
2 Need of creation (why?)
3 Science as creation: Physics + Mathematics: (object + math idea)
4 Art, Engineering, Physiology, Psychology , . . . . . etc . . . etc
====
Modern Mathematical Physics had its birth with Minkowski / Einstein,
with conceptions of negative time, many dimensions, space-time . . . . etc
and if somebody doesn't adopt these dogmas he cannot enter
in the church of scientific "Theoretic Math/Physics"
The puzzle is:
Nobody knows what negative time is,
Where can the many dimensions (4-D, 11-D, 27-D) be found in Nature ?
Where is the absolute space-time ?
Conclusion:
The Minkowski / Einstein's ''scientific bible'' must be rewrote.
==============
Attached Images
 god-bible.jpg (134.2 KB, 4 views)
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Last edited by socratus; 08-29-2018 at 09:04 AM.
#15
08-29-2018, 09:34 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
The impossibly stubborn question at the heart of quantum mechanics
/ by Jim Baggott / August 2, 2018 /

Everybody knows by now that quantum mechanics is an extraordinarily
successful scientific theory, on which much of our modern,
tech-obsessed lifestyles depend. It is also completely mad.
Although the theory quite obviously works, we’re left to puzzle over what
we think it’s telling us, with all its ghosts and phantoms; its cats that are
at once both alive and dead; its collapsing wavefunctions; and its seemingly
“spooky” goings-on.
It leaves us with a rather desperate desire to lie down quietly in a darkened room.. . .

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/s...ntum-mechanics

============
Attached Images
 images No clothes.jpg (10.7 KB, 3 views)
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#16
10-03-2018, 05:40 AM
 socratus Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Israel Posts: 354
Five things physicists hate about physics
12 July 2017
By Richard Webb
=====
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#17
12-12-2018, 06:47 AM
 Gambeir Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Peoples republic of Washington Posts: 634
Quote:
 Originally Posted by socratus Science is built up of facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house. / Henri Poincare /
Quote:
 Originally Posted by socratus Why some scientists say physics has gone off the rails Has the love of "elegant" equations overtaken the desire to describe the real world? by Dan Falk / Jun.02.2018 / 5:13 PM ET === "People can believe in the multiverse all they want — but it's not science." # "Theoretical physicists used to explain what was observed. Now they try to explain why they can't explain what was not observed. And they're not even good at that." * /* Sabine Hossenfelder, / https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science...ils-ncna879346 ====
I don't know why I'm commenting here socratus except that I know you're an intelligent person. The way I see the problem scoratus is science is first a tool and not a science as imagined: A detective, a lawyer, a judge, or even a lowly policeman are all people whom undoubtedly have a much finer grasp of the scientific method than 99.9% of all self proclaimed scientists.

Scientists aren't trained in investigative science and applied law and so they cannot claim to know what science is. The difference in understanding between the two is the difference between hanging innocent people and or discovering the truth. We have hundreds of years refining the method under the judicial system; when correctly applied it has a far greater chance of finding the truth than any other method known.

It is no wonder that the biggest quacks are also the biggest icons in today's criminally operated education systems. Being a mathematician does not make one a scientist any more than it makes them qualified to be the lead investigator in a criminal case. The idiocy of science today is the failure to grasp the true nature of the forces behind their own work. The first thing to recognize is that education is big business, it's an economy in it's own right, and so now what do you do when the basis of that business is to keep it going or else face exposure, and which would collapse the whole? It is naive to think that many varied ideas which encompass so-called science are merely the consequence of creative minds. Remember this is first a business and not a science, and so the science of business is how to make it look like it is science.

See, the issues run deep and are far outside the bounds of science. The system cannot now put in place a requirement for police science or Pre~law as a prerequisite for a masters in science. That would introduce a requirement for critical reasoning skills as prerequisite area of study before even beginning a study of any other field of science. The system is now too dependent on an already existing field of science under Einstein; which is almost certain to have fundamental errors that would require an entire revamping, and so now we are back to \$\$\$ once more for all sorts of reasons, and of course not forgetting the fact there are no " certified rubber stamped" professors of the new science to hire as replacements anyways, so that means the complete destruction of revenue doesn't it?

This is a problem, a very big problem, and so the solution is to continue paving over the increasingly glaring error's in the hopes that by the time revolution arrives the organized collapse of civilization and knowledge will make the issue moot.

Civilizations rise and fall according to the desires of those whom control the monetary systems, and the reason they fall is that all nations are created for their eventual final use in an endless game of rulership passed from generation to generation. There is good reason to believe that you are right now living in a time where another collapse of civilization may take place. Western Civilization seems right now to be heading for another repeat of the same kind which destroyed the Roman Empire and for the same reasons.
https://michael-hudson.com/2018/08/a...m-their-debts/
__________________
"The past is now part of my future, the present is well out of hand." Joy Divison "Heart and Soul LP."

Last edited by Gambeir; 12-12-2018 at 07:11 AM.
#18
12-12-2018, 07:37 AM
 Gambeir Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Peoples republic of Washington Posts: 634
Quote:
 Originally Posted by socratus Five things physicists hate about physics 12 July 2017 By Richard Webb https://www.newscientist.com/article...about-physics/ =====
I'm not sure I understand where you stand but to me this is pure propaganda of the worst kind and then there's this fine grammar;
" you’ve done all the hard maths."

Maths huh? Not mathematics: I mean good God seriously? But wait, there's more....unfortunately....

"Einstein’s general relativity is a case in point. It’s the best theory of gravity we have."

I think rather that it's the only theory of gravity Richard Webb is allowed to write about in the New Scientist because it certainly is neither the only or even best theory available.
Good Lord and this is what passes for a science publication? Just check out their psycho mind control mag-rag cover. Notice the subheading on "Spider Milk."
Where is my illuminati birds nest head piece and antlers when I need them?
https://images.newscientist.com/wp-c...8-800x1052.jpg
__________________
"The past is now part of my future, the present is well out of hand." Joy Divison "Heart and Soul LP."

Last edited by Gambeir; 12-12-2018 at 07:46 AM.

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