The Tate power module was one of the first things I built, it produced little except during thunderstorm weather conditions. This obviously has its dangers. The Cockroft Walton device and the Tate have a basic flaw in that their design has multiple capacitors that will all have high losses. We know that placing an inductor in each part of the circuit can negate these losses but this then introduces a new problem. It will tune the circuit to a given frequency thus disallowing other frequencies from being efficiently collected.

As small caps and diodes are very cheap, I suppose we could have multiple circuits to catch a wider range of frequency.

As both these devices raise voltage and loose current, maybe it would be more beneficial to start with low voltage and high current such as we find in earth currents. the problem here is that much bigger wire will be required and a greater initial cost.

Relevant post from Duncan on Franco Malgarini's Crystal Radio thread:

I have heard similar stories as a child from my uncle, he was a tv engineer and operated a Hallicrafters 80M transceiver for years, he got me into messing with electrical experiments at age six and thats when I built my first crystal set. I had many hours of fun with that. at age 12 he gave me his Hallicrafters transceiver, a big black thing that weighed a ton this is where my interest in electrical phenomenon began.It was 30+ years later when I started to experiment again and built the Tate module. It would take a day or two to build up 2 or 3 volts in a 63uf capacitor but during a thunder storm it would rise to 50+ volts in minutes.

Here is the picture of a Hallicrafters unit, I wish I still had it.

first thoughts and scribbles ---

Hi bob thanks for the re-post I must confess I had never heard of a “Tate power devise” so --- I have done a very quick read here

Joe Tate: Ambient Power Module

I am not much impressed with the rush to get into volts and amps in the REX write up still that aside It brought to mind this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5lV5GT2o1M

lol Mr Brownn my first Rx/Tx was similar and just as heavy happy days! however I suspect as we start to consider antenna theory wireless and electric systems not considered for over a hundred years are about to surface! we never ever tune an antenna to series resonance these days (in fact we are pretty much obliged to a 50 ohm characteristic impedance to ground by design). and series resonance is exactly what Tesla did with his 'wireless' system' used this way present electrical theory does not apply. In fact in ye olden days of telegraph the lines were often run after dowsing because it was noted the system could then run with no power input.
here then is the nub, Rex in its write up informs that this system is powered by various abstract radio frequencies and /or EM radiation. I don't agree …. if the Rex author is correct then this investigation is onto a hiding for nothing, I don’t believe the Rex author is correct but to demonstrate that and particularly to replicate and prove the effect at high power is difficult.
Still on the plus side there is no room for nay sayers here the principle and circuits demonstrably work , a most unusual state of affairs in the free energy circus.
T.H.Moray had much the same uphill fight and eventually was forced to demonstrate huge power from his machine for the US navy in a canyon miles from any radio transmitter and particularly from any power lines....( Emigration Canyon) he did so , and of course his machine performed flawlessly . You can read of that trial here (if you wish)

Moray Valve Manuscript - Nu Energy â„¢ Research Archive

So what I believe we see here is not an infinite range of RF frequencies but rather that which is not frequency but (for want of a better description) an impulse at resonance . Perhaps better described as back ground noise brought to resonance , money grubbers have a term for this which they use in their calculations …” Stochastic resonance “
but before considering its electrical equivalent lets consider the infinite RF frequencies scenario, antenna theory and how one well known free energy researcher adapted and used sulphated batteries to load match, the idea being one or more of the batteries in the bank will match the source to the load Ossie calls the bank of sulphated batteries 'a REAC' it may not be immediately apparent how this fits into an antenna system but for sure impulse rate and impedance matching are important factors.

http://www.syscoil.org/medias/pdf/do...rgy_system.pdf

regarding the Tate power device and its clones we are considering systems that demonstrably work (however feeble they may seem) however history tells us huge amounts of energy are available from similar systems alas the pieces of these jig saws have been cast asunder and some well hidden whilst red herrings abound.
As Mbrownn noted natural ground current could be measured in KA but how to get hold of it ? Prof EPD tells us if we do but take the time to listen carefully and he in turn is translating Tesla lend an ear from 1M30 > in this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5ZWrjcrPl4

EPD says ..“a SWR of infinity rather than unity” “ large coils to give a tight series resonance” this is of course almost the exact reverse of theory we are familiar with and the resulting electrostatics are equally as peculiar to our standard electrical training … standard treatment of SWR is like so ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1eE13UXAKs

it is rather the reverse of what we seek since we wish to encourage the large currents mbrownn notes exist, it is undoubtedly series resonance we wish to achieve. Keeping in mind that as power consumption in AC systems is P = V I Cos Ø . In antenna systems we are used to V is relatively high across a high impedance tank circuit and I very low we of course want the reverse - high current to charge batteries ! Lead acid batteries are rated and charged in AMPSx HOURS .. volts don't really enter the equation.
There is another amazing cherry on the top of this series resonant battery / antenna cake read here what happens when (and if you can) catch and hold a lead acid battery at resonance … this extract

When you hear the sulphate crystals buzzing and crackling inside the battery, you know something amazing (and kind of scary) is happening.

Is from this web page http://www.johnsavesenergy.com/Capac...l#.VOkwEFLyHoY

kind regards Duncan

Hi Mbrownn,
That transceiver looks like a beauty. If we only knew what we had sometimes... My wife doesn't feel that way about my treasures, but as long as I keep them confined to one room...
Bob

Duncan,
Thanks for your post and the links you provided. I'll go thru them today. They look familiar, but the one thing I've found is that when watching some of these videos, there's always some new insight to be gained, especially when it's EPD presenting.

The way I understand it, series resonance dovetails quite nicely with the open system concept. Would you agree?

Regarding the Tate Power Module, I think it's just a start. As you say, the vast reservoir is out there, but at the initial stages of harvesting this stochastic resonance or sea of energy, we're only able to get small amounts of voltage, as MBrownn pointed out (with the exception of thunderstorm time).

But I think the TPM, or some variation on it, can give us enough voltage to proceed....

So what might this entail?
I'd suggest something to amplify the voltage - something as simple as say, a Joule Thief. I think Larskro is the latest to produce an extremely low voltage JT (35mV). See video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnZqZ4dMvG0

I believe There are things that can be done to amplify this voltage in turn, and then provide a means to draw in energy from the electrostatic environment to provide the necessary current, but more about that later. Hint: Don Smith thread.

Bob

@Duncan, thanks for the info, ill have to try and understand Eric D more, problem is he leaves me waaaay behind hehehe.

@ Bob, Yes it was a real radio hehehe It took two of us to carry it. Women generally just dont understand guys "things" how we can be so interested in a bit of wire.

The problem as I see it is that capacitors are just too lossy, even if we put an inductance in there with its gains we only end up at break even. We have to find a way to replace the capacitance with an inductance and then we will be really cooking.

Hi Bob yes .... I see series resonance as very much key to an open circuit system. I believe it is the impulse, It has frequency but no waveform. … Its very kind of you to try and chew through my train of thought and follow through the links . You mention Prof Eric and he is a superb communicator himself still I am trying very hard to amplify one of his key points (because I believe it pertains) which I'll post on this thread in due course even if it results in my crucifixion on open forum. ( shouldn't really mess with the writings of a magician like Eric) You obviously know the simple version of this works .. you have tried it . So have I using my TV aerial far from ideal still it did what was expected.I wish I lived else where and could fling a decent antenna still beggers cant be choosers. … kind regards Duncan

After Eric Dollard was back into lab there seemed to be some progress mostly in small pieces here and there. Because everyone was making small contributions a general theme around tesla's work was evident.

I would like to point to one experiment in particular however there were many others. April 2014 is about a year back I felt the thread as a whole was going somewhere.

http://www.energeticforum.com/eric-d...ollard-64.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNvjj7_EBnE

Electricity ,power and energy … energy in particular , It is energy for which we must pay … It is defined crudely as “The ability to do work” for that we are encouraged to pay for it as a consumable .
Is it consumable ? Is it a substance ? You would be hard pushed to weigh a bucket of volts or amps or indeed a basket of kW/hours because they are a phenomena a phenomena we know next to nothing about ask any boffin … what is electricity ? Its certainly not a substance .
a phenomena one that occurs quite naturally at that ! Bertie told us this..

"energy cannot be created or destroyed only changed from one form to another “Sooo There is as much energy available for constant free use in our universe as ever there was, not a penny weight more or less! .. agreed ?

Our task then is to convert this energy which we know is all around us back into a useful form on a domestic scale … where is it ? In his book Mr Moray describes the situation as being rather like having a bucket of water in a swimming pool and asks us to ponder how to separate our bucket of water from the surrounding sea

http://blueshift.nu/doc/sea-of-energy_henry-t-moray.pdf

first may it please you to consider the physical operation of a loud speaker … It is a diaphragm which can only move back and forth, ergo it is essentially a straight line percussion action there is no lateral movement ! The sin wave concoction of complex frequencies which make up the richness of sound are then obviously a result of that impulse at any instant in time being projected into the surrounding (ambient) air pressure …. no air = no sound change the composition of the ambient and the sound will be different. The order is then easy first impulse then immediately waves are formed – (Imagine slapping water and the effect) The trouble is this impulse has been intentionally omitted from electrical theory It might be nice if we let Prof EPD and Oliver Heaviside put them back with example….. from the pen of Eric Dollard ...


...for those who’s minds have been polluted by the prevalent quantum goddess reality:

Let us turn to the Heaviside Equation which is the most fundamental equations in all of Electrical Engineering:

(RG + XB) + j (XG – RB) = propagation constant squared

where:

R resistance in Ohms
G conductance in Siemens
X reactance in Henrys per second
B susceptance in Farads per second

Therefore:

RG is the scalar or DC component that is NOT A WAVE,
XB is the longitudinal or AC component and is an alternating electric wave

XG is the transverse or OC component and is a forward moving oscillating electric wave. RB is the transverse or OC component and is a reverse moving oscillating electric wave

This equation allows for all electrical conditions in time and or space and combinations thereof. The example equation is the dimensions of time (see: Steinmetz Theory of Transient Electric Waves and Phenomenon and also my paper: Symbolic Representation of the Generalized Electric Wave.)

Example:

The air in the room; the room is filled with air and has atmospheric pressure of 2998 mB, your stereo is blasting away, the speakers are creating longitudinal waves having length and frequency and exert a oscillating force centered on 2998 mB (+ or – 10 mB)

RG is the air pressure, a scalar
XB is the sound of the stereo, a longitudinal wave

XG = RB, thus no transverse waves exist (XG – RB) = ZERO

Hence (RG + XB) is what is going on in the room, the disinformers have convinced you that this whole quantity (RB + XB) is scalar, RG is the only scalar component. It is DC and has NO FREQUENCY, no WAVELENGTH and thus NO WAVE! SCALER = NO WAVE - GET IT???

If people don’t get this fundamental concept – my time is better spent talking to my pet Coyote… I have nothing further to say…
I hope you now start to envisage the difference between the longitudinal wave and the transverse wave .
Let me be permitted to press your imagination one step further.. remove the speaker cone and replace it with a plate (just impulse) … (that’s the wave that doesn't exist by the way) … now consider this short video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvJAgrUBF4w

a plate of sand is given shape and form by resonance not of a transverse wave but an impulse so now with the longitudinal wave (Aether) in place a method of separating our bucket of water from the swimming pool presents .. a way forward. Sound you would not hear in a vacuum …. would the sand perform in a vacuum?

now consider a battery to be little more than a huge capacitor.. place that capacitor in this reality and dimension consider its operation as described by fzzzy here ...

Imagine this. We have a capacitance. The capacitance contains a certain pressure (voltage). We then apply an impulse pressure to this capacitance at a regular interval. This impulse pressure distributes itself evenly throughout the capacitance with every impulse. Thus, the voltage changes inside the capacitance at a regular interval. The fact that these changes happen at a certain interval gives us a frequency, which we normally associate with waves. However, this pressure is felt equally at all points within the capacitance simultaneously. Therefore, there is no travelling wave. The impulses are felt at a certain frequency, which makes us want to think of it in terms of waves, however, since the impulse is felt at all points within the capacitance simultaneously there is no wave travelling through the medium.

It's a very subtle point, but the difference is a transverse wave operates using the principles of light and heat, and the longitudinal "wave" operates using the principles of pressure and sound. Thus, we cannot use equations describing one to describe the other; they have different properties. …
very good fzzzy but its not really a subtle point for me … its huge, I can effect the internals of that battery/ capacitor now using no energy …. isn’t that what we seek a fully charged battery with no energy expended ? …. from the air /Telluric current …. with apogogies in advance for messing with Erics example but having seen battery terminals frost up whilst feeding a load I know this is a very different sort of electriciy. I don’t believe for one second that the Tate device is feeding off spurious emissions any more than T.H.Morays device was .
To try and make this a little more understandable the difference between the two resonances would be rather like ringing a bell with the clapper attached to a rope which takes time and expends energy as opposed to having the clapper attached to a solid rod – every action is instantly relayed to the bell with little expenditure of energy ,
That may draw the picture of some sort for you how ever it leaves no room for energy gain I believe that’s because series resonance given the right timing and conditions is rather more of a whip action than a solid rod …. the difference betwixt a tsunami and a transverse wave .
The correct mathematics of a bull whip there lies another enigma

@ Duncan, Excellent post, its really got me thinking

longitudinal waves, i.e. pressure waves like we have in sound are the thing I understand best. It is the transverse wave that requires more thought and understanding.

Ill use your analogy of slapping the water in the pool. When you slap the water a longitudinal wave of pressure propagates out in all directions but this is not what we see. We see the transverse wave of the ripples spreading out on the surface. These waves appear to be the water moving outwards when in fact the water stays in its approximate position and oscillating up and down.

The transverse wave is at 90 degrees to the longitudinal force applied.

It is interesting that the oscillation of the water is in the same plane as the longitudinal wave. A bit like AC current in a wire when compared to DC

Could you explain the transverse wave wave better? do you have a better analogy? Does AC have transverse and longitudinal properties and how do we differentiate between them? Have I got all this mixed up?

I believe you are correct in that most of us mix transverse and longitudinal when we think about waveforms.

The way I understand it, transverse electromagnetic (TEM) waves are of varying lengths, and traverse distances in space and over time from origin to their various destinations where they are received/absorbed/deflected.

Longitudinal magneto-dielectric waves are not really waves. Rather, they are vectors which influence bodies without traversing distance or time. Rather, as I understand them, they influence bodies through counterspace, in a fashion which is instantaneous and does not lose strength, because they are not passing through space or the delay of time.

There's that classic demo of EPD (I think) and someone else holding 2 ends of a rope. When one end sends a ripple thru the rope by quickly raising and lowering it, the analogy to a TEM wave is created. When EPD pulls the end of the rope, it instantaneously pulls the fellow at the other end; if it were a rod, you could push or pull from one end and feel the effect without attenuation (minus losses in the rod, but this is only an analogy).

I think the key to tapping this vast reservoir that frosts our battery leads with endothermic electrical phenomena is FREQUENCY.

So... As far as scaling up the Tate Power Module, it's not just a question of adding more caps and diodes. It's about taking the small amount of charge it gathers and getting it to oscillate in tandem with the right coils at the right frequency.

Now, if we're not using a TPM, another oscillator could be run from a lead acid battery thru the right coils to produce the same effect, I believe.

Bob

Thanks for taking the time to read and consider Mbrown I'm sure Bob is clawing his way through my scribble too! I only wish I could simplify and amplify things , like you I struggle as best I can to grasp what Eric is trying to convey he is obviously very frustrated that so few understand his writing... such is the lot of a genius. …( even if he doesn't regard himself as such) In simple terms I think the story runs so …. There is another type of electricity it is in a different dimention just as when you TX the electromagnetic wave is in a different dimention to voltage and current you probably have seen an antenna propagation drawing a bit like this

The EM wave being at 90 deg or better still like so



It is drawn in isometric because it is the only way to demonstrate the dimentions . This is the radio wave we are familiar with and the voltage and current we are trained to use It is not the stuff Tesla used at all!
With an SWR of unity (which we strive for) the current leads the voltage by 90deg this is the resonance that we have used for a 100 years or more it results in an electromagnetic wave .
All our current theory and practice is based on electromagnatisum and the electromagnetic wave is of course part and parcel of that . BUT ... The thing is there is another type of electricity and system altogether the electrostatic system, In this system current lags the voltage by 90deg proagation is mainly by ground.
The electricity (for want of a better word) is different and has to be used very differently. Defending his wireless system in court Tesla stated time and again … “ this is not an electromagnetic system “ so please to consider this -- as volts and amps are to the electromagnetic wave what is the equivelent to the electrostatic impulse wave? The dimention is simply omited in the lorenz force law … looking at the same bit of radio / wireless theory through electrial eyes we end up with the same mush … power = VI cos ø like radio or Teslas wireless there are two possible resonances parellel or series from Radio comes the electromagnetic wave , Volts and Amps from Wireless comes the electrostatic impulse wave and the unknown … “there be dragons” still it is there, it does work I've seen it !!the trouble is I can't engineer and reproduce it at will becaused I dont know the laws, certainly not ohms law, amps,volts or power Its extreamly frustrating ! Its very different stuff I'm sorry if what I write only serves to confuse I'm certainly no EPD
kind regards Duncan
PS Bob I was composing this as you posted …. It does lead where you point but it will take a little thought to get the minds picture to words … if I can

Thanks for the posts, Duncan. I'm still chewing on them, enjoying the taste

Thought I'd throw out some related gems from EPD - basically a transcript (as best I could do) of the video I link right below. Might be worth opening in a separate window and reading - some real great points of clarification on what's of Tesla and what has been fabricated and put in its place. Duncan, I think it ties in with some of what you're saying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wiFboM3f2M

Hope you guys enjoy it.
Bob