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  #1981  
Old 10-30-2011, 01:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Maybe it would be easy for you all to get a fire starter stick make the electrode like I said then play with the silicates doped with the salt substitute in a cup. Please listen to what I'm saying about this cell as it has taken a long time for me to do. What to start with Go to the store and buy drying silicate add the Salt substitute and experiment from that point, but make the electrode as I said. you want to convert the Hydrogen to Co2 with this chemical, you might even add a small bit of calcium carbonate, it's the carbonate that is going to generate the Co2.
John
JB it seems that your using something different DRYING SILICATE. Is the drying silicate for flowers a much finer grain than silicate gel?

So for a basic replication we would melt some epsom salt down on the stove than add the salt substitute, sodium carbonate, and use copper electrode and magnesium electrode that must oxidized with either EPSOM SALT or ALUM prior adding the cell?

Also you mentioned that the ALUM and SODIUM CARBONATE neutralize each other out. So I take it that these 2 should not be added together when trying to make a cell crystal?

regards
rick
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  #1982  
Old 10-30-2011, 03:57 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Lead Carbonate Battery
Lead Carbonate Fill Battery - YouTube
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  #1983  
Old 10-30-2011, 04:07 PM
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Heptahydrates

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Originally Posted by phinine View Post
JB it seems that your using something different DRYING SILICATE. Is the drying silicate for flowers a much finer grain than silicate gel?

So for a basic replication we would melt some epsom salt down on the stove than add the salt substitute, sodium carbonate, and use copper electrode and magnesium electrode that must oxidized with either EPSOM SALT or ALUM prior adding the cell?

Also you mentioned that the ALUM and SODIUM CARBONATE neutralize each other out. So I take it that these 2 should not be added together when trying to make a cell crystal?

regards
rick
Rick,
I have given two examples in what I have posted.The drying silicate for flowers is fine and that is what I would use. The other mix is a hot method, but I was talking about a cold method with the carbonates.
You can not mix the Alum with the Sodium Carbonate without that reaction, these are two different Crystal Cells.
John B
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  #1984  
Old 10-30-2011, 05:43 PM
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Rick,
I have given two examples in what I have posted.The drying silicate for flowers is fine and that is what I would use. The other mix is a hot method, but I was talking about a cold method with the carbonates.
You can not mix the Alum with the Sodium Carbonate without that reaction, these are two different Crystal Cells.
John B
My question is with the cold cell how do we get the ingredients to solidify into a solid crystal without heat or a liquid binder? So you put the dry ingredients you mentioned together and mix them and insert the copper and magnesium electrodes and it will show voltage and current?
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  #1985  
Old 10-31-2011, 08:47 PM
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Heptahydrate

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Originally Posted by phinine View Post
My question is with the cold cell how do we get the ingredients to solidify into a solid crystal without heat or a liquid binder? So you put the dry ingredients you mentioned together and mix them and insert the copper and magnesium electrodes and it will show voltage and current?
Rick,
Look at this as making cement.
John
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  #1986  
Old 10-31-2011, 08:47 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Here is a video of the big crystal cell that is painted and running a LCD clock.

Update on big crystal cell amp reading - YouTube



I will keep on testing it and making new ones. Just keep in mind that testing these things takes time.
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  #1987  
Old 10-31-2011, 09:34 PM
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editAt All,
Remember that I'm using Magnesium and can not have any Galvanic Action, it's a no no. Toothpaste(Sodium Hydroxide) is not the same thing and the mixture is much different then straight Sodium Carbonate. This is a Hydrate mixture and this cell is using Carbon dioxide for fuel from the break down of the water inside the crystal. These cells use that hole you see for water intake this is why I gave the hint about Heptahydrates . The electrodes must be multiple metal bonded semiconductors. I figure your all on your own thing here and do not have time to listen to me, so I kept going on my experiments.
And again I'm not talking about Epsom Salts....

The cell that is cut in Half is patterned after a Emitter junction to a power semiconductor on a much bigger level. The reason I said Heptahydrates is because they lock up water, as soon as it is used up to form Carbon Dioxide then the cell remains for two to three days at full power output. The holes you see are for feeder tubes for water and not much. The Hydrates reverses the Ion flow so no galvanic action occurs and the process starts all over again. Magnesium is Sodium Carbonate in a crude form. The cells have been under rated at 150 Ma more like 250 Ma under short circuit. The cells gain power under load the four Leds at 3.2 volts @ 20Ma each are all in parallel, we could add more but we just need to finish the testing. As chuck said these have been going for months now under extreme conditions, water is the fuel and the hydrogen is converted to CO2.

Don't jump to conclusions here Chuck and I will explain it in much better detail in a better Youtube, and Yes Ibpointlass ( should have been B Rads) I know what your doing also with your mixture so you do not need to give your secrete mix away. You just need to explain where the energy comes from.

To make this cell requires some real chemistry and machining . Also how many did the experiment with the Salt Substitute on Lasersabers battery to see what happened ? The chloride is very important but you do not need the glue at all, as it just adds water for the Heptahedra mix.
John B

This is an interesting process. This cycle with cleanup is the beginning
of true maintenance free, also it moves us in the direction that energy exists in the open system and not dependent on electrolytic consumption.
One set of cells heal for a few days while the other cells are working.
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  #1988  
Old 10-31-2011, 10:56 PM
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Precoating both electrodes with an oxide layer---seems to work

@All
The small cell that I mentioned in my last post is still working and I made another one today to verify the results. I took the first one apart after a day and examined the magnesium for deterioration. I found none so I decided to put it back together and resume testing it. In the process I DROPPED IT and knocked off some of the crystals. All I could think of was the nursery rhyme "Humpty Dumpty" and how ..."all the kings horses and all the kings men" ect. ect. Somehow I got the pieces back together and the cell came back to life.

Here is a video about "Humpty Dumpty"----the cell that had a bad fall and survived.

Humpty Dumpty---- The crystal cell that had a bad fall and survived - YouTube

There might be a PN junction going on here John. I really don't know.

Lidmotor
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  #1989  
Old 11-01-2011, 12:12 AM
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GUYS,
THIS IS A WD 40 QUESTION....
I TOOK A CARBON/MG MINI CELL FROM MY LAST EXPERIMENT.
IT WAS DESICCATED AND READ NOMINAL VOLTAGE. BUT CURRENT REMAINED BETWEEN 6-8 mA. I FLOODED it with WD 40. It STILL RETAINS CURRENT at the SAME LEVEL. Now only reads 85 mV......
So the question remains, why current is LESS affected by insult eg, removal of all hydration by displacement, more so than voltage.
All thoughts welcome,
Very Best Regards,
Jim
PS Bravo IB and Lidmotor.
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  #1990  
Old 11-01-2011, 12:19 AM
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By the way,
If I take the cell after the WD 40 immersion and simply swirl it in 70% Rubbing Ethyl alcohol for a few seconds, the voltage returns to normal......i.e. over 1.8V
Thoughts?
Jim
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  #1991  
Old 11-01-2011, 03:58 PM
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As I've mentioned before, the conducting grease really helps to maintain the voltage and current levels. It works well with the WD-40, once that has a chance to penetrate and then dry out a bit, I then apply the conducting grease on the connection points, ( I got some from the Power Co. here). Which keeps out further moisture and prevents oxidation, thus helping to maintain the original output levels.
Maybe using the combination of the WD- 40 and then the alcohol also helps to cut, dissolve and clean the oxidation crusts that forms where the copper, aluminum, or mg electrodes, are exposed to the air. Then the grease helps to to further seal the contact points and keep them clean.
I have also been using Bees wax on some outer metal surfaces to protect the metals from the air. The whole cell can be dipped into wax when its hot and molten. Paraffin (candle wax) may work almost as well, but may have have all the anti-corrosion inhibitors. Oxidation prevention is the number one issue.
NZ
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  #1992  
Old 11-01-2011, 05:08 PM
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Anyone else notice this effect with the crystal cell....


you take a capacitor and one of your crystal cells and record the standing voltage on it. You hook the cell up to the capacitor and let them sit connected over night. When you go to check it the voltage in the capacitor and cell is at a higher voltage than what you started with.

I have a big crystal cell with a standing voltage of 1.300V.
The capacitor has a standing voltage of 270.9mV.
Hooking the copper of the cell to the positive of the capacitor and then hooking the magnesium of the cell to the negative of the capacitor and letting it sit over night and now both read 1.388V connected together.

When I say standing voltage i'm talking about leaving the cell and capacitor alone for 12 hours without touching them and then record the voltage.

The capacitor should have charged to the 1.300 volts of the cell but for some odd reason its gone up in voltage and keeps going up.

I don't think its temperature because its now colder than it was when i started the experiment.
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  #1993  
Old 11-01-2011, 05:17 PM
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Yes IB, have noticed that..but because i'm a little wayward in cell construction at the moment, didn't know if or how or whether it was a real effect.
It seems similar to that odd phenomenon with diodes, where leaving them in one place for extended periods (weeks or months) can see them develop voltage across them.
Any fresh capacitor appears to ambiently soak, for want of a better set of words. Short a cap and the mV will begin to appear, slowly creeping up. I thought it was residual, a voltage held within after a short period of shorting it. But, you can short a cap for days and the same thing begins to happen.
I had a 'cap kit' for the replacement of old capacitors in an arcade game monitor and tried those. None have been used, all in a sealed packet....they showed the effect.
Older caps, say a decade old, may show a negative voltage and some may just sit at almost zero.
Series or parallel connecting doesn't seem to work and kills the effect..but...as you are trying them singularly combined with these type of cells, well it may be that same effect is allowed to occur because of the crystal cell construction.

As I say, unsure if it is real or a previously well noted effect by electrical engineers.
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  #1994  
Old 11-02-2011, 02:08 AM
NextGen1967 NextGen1967 is offline
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Originally Posted by ibpointless2 View Post
Anyone else notice this effect with the crystal cell....


you take a capacitor and one of your crystal cells and record the standing voltage on it. You hook the cell up to the capacitor and let them sit connected over night. When you go to check it the voltage in the capacitor and cell is at a higher voltage than what you started with.

I have a big crystal cell with a standing voltage of 1.300V.
The capacitor has a standing voltage of 270.9mV.
Hooking the copper of the cell to the positive of the capacitor and then hooking the magnesium of the cell to the negative of the capacitor and letting it sit over night and now both read 1.388V connected together.

When I say standing voltage i'm talking about leaving the cell and capacitor alone for 12 hours without touching them and then record the voltage.

The capacitor should have charged to the 1.300 volts of the cell but for some odd reason its gone up in voltage and keeps going up.

I don't think its temperature because its now colder than it was when i started the experiment.
@IB

The higher charge reflected in the capacitor is due to the fact that your DMM uses some of the energy from the cell (usually they use a 10Mohh internal resistor). If you would record the cell voltage on a quality bench meter (which generally measures over an 1Gohm or more resistor), it would record also an voltage that is higher then the 1.3 volt a general handheld meter would measure. So, you could see your DMM as a load on the cell.

If you store the energy of the cell in an metalized polyester capacitor of say 36uf@250v, the charge will probably reach a bit higher even, due to the lower leakage rate of this type capacitor, and the low uF value makes sure the charging will not be to slow.

Something which can even more push the level of the capacitor up, is when the cell is receiving fluctuating signals from the outside... The peak voltages of this energy will be stored in the capacitor, a meter generally could not measure these because the peaks are to fast for the meter to register.

A simple way to register incoming fluctuating energy in the cell is by simply take the output leads of the cell, and connect them to an (high gain) amplifier.... Place a 10nf (or any small capacitor value) in between the non grounded lead to protect the amplifier for incoming DC. The Mic input usually has an high enough gain for such. usually when you bring mass (your hand) in very close proximity of the cell, the incoming fluctuations (if they were there), will gain in strength.

--
Ron.

P.S: If the value of your capacitor is very small, and you connect your DMM on the capacitor (while still keep everything connected), you probably will notice that the voltage *very slowly* drops back down to the 1.3 volt level (due to the load connected now). If your capacitor value if high (>36uF or even >1000uF, seeing a gradual drop will probably take a looooong time).
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  #1995  
Old 11-03-2011, 03:30 AM
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Hi Guys,
Here is my latest test with regards to showing ANODE to CATHODE mass and surface area ratio. This test seems to show that it may indeed be beneficial to have a larger ANODE than cathode. This is the highest voltage I have attained with one cell.
3 Volt One Cell - YouTube
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:14 AM
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@ Jim:
I have also had very good results from using the small pencil leads, although they are easily broken. But I notice that your voltage after only a couple of seconds of readings drops fast. Maybe you can mention at what levels that cell will maintain at, even after a few minutes of being connected to a meter, or to a red or white led. As it is acting as a capacitor which starts high but quickly drops. In any case that's quite a voltage its got.
The ratio of cathode to anode is a mistery, but the hardest part is getting a higher current level that will maintain its level under a load. That is much harder to do with a small cell, and is where mass is important.
NZ
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  #1997  
Old 11-03-2011, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
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@ Jim:
I have also had very good results from using the small pencil leads, although they are easily broken. But I notice that your voltage after only a couple of seconds of readings drops fast. Maybe you can mention at what levels that cell will maintain at, even after a few minutes of being connected to a meter, or to a red or white led. As it is acting as a capacitor which starts high but quickly drops. In any case that's quite a voltage its got.
The ratio of cathode to anode is a mistery, but the hardest part is getting a higher current level that will maintain its level under a load. That is much harder to do with a small cell, and is where mass is important.
NZ
Thanks Nick,
Yes the voltage after sitting overnight stabilized at 2.42 volts. The cell is not a capacitor really. It is an interesting gizmo. You can drain it down with a LED, let it sit, or add an aliquot of water and it bounces back. Again, it is neat in that the bounce back does not involve recharging with current per se.
This is but scratching the surface on this mix. So, the capacity for sustained load will be perhaps proportional to the mass of not only the anode vs cathode, but the "reserve" of the mass of the electrolyte as well. I am still tinkering with the mini cells trying to see how and what electrode material is best. Next step will be larger can like cells machined out of magnesium in the "C size and D size." Has anyone else had any findings with the Zn0 epsoms cells?

Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1998  
Old 11-03-2011, 02:34 PM
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Thanks for the reply Jim. I'm really glad to see that the starting voltage is so high. That gives us all some hope, as nobody has really gotten that high an output before.
I also wonder about the amount of mass of the electrolyte that is really needed. As it seams that it does not take much of an electrolyte just to allow the ions through, possibly just a thin film or layer is enough, like capacitors use.
Will that last cell light an led? And, was it you that had another cell that read 100 mAs?
I have been working on the capacitor type cells which I am now making in a 1 by 2 inch galvanized pipe, until I can get aluminum pipe, but i'm using just the carbon and the outside galvanized can, and still can get an output. That is, with no other anode like the carbon rod, or electrolyte mix. Just the two things. But I find that if I make the size of the cell smaller, the output drops much faster, or will not sustain. So, cell size is a limiting factor also.
My idea is to connect my cells to a big Joule Thief like Lasersaber is working on now, but not have to depend on the solar panel and batteries that he is using. That is my ultimate goal, for now. I'll take some pics when I get it all together, I have his type of Joule Thief working now, using my own home made 8 inch toroid coil, but I'll try it with the big 6 inch split Tv yoke ferrite core, also.
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:06 PM
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Crystal Battery

Jim,
Good work.
I still say that the Milliamp reading is because of the internal impedance of the cell. That cell should light a 2.8 volt Led and stay until surface charge is gone. Can you do that test to see how long it takes to run down?.
John B
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  #2000  
Old 11-03-2011, 05:25 PM
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I still don't understand why people are not putting a load across the cell and then take the amp reading, while at the same time show the voltage on the cell drop. Even though the voltage drops and the amps go down, it still gives us a good basis to run off of.
BTW our cells still run the little WM using SSG ckt after all this time, we only have to add a few drops a week.

Patrick
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Old 11-03-2011, 05:41 PM
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Impedance Crystal Cell

Minoly,
Correct you should load the cell and not let stand alone. You must form the Crystal as to which the electron flow is going. It's very important to form the lattice in which the cell is going to work. Led's have a working time in hours and so do crystal cells. This is why I keep cycling them as I want to know the maximum run times. I have seen Marcus Reids cells do the same thing here. His bigger cell we have been able to kill dead and then cycle it back to full again about 100 time now. The crystal cell is an automatic adjustment device with the load. So the impedance can change in continuous operation, works just like a transistor with heat and cold.
Leakage current goes down when cold and up when hot. Happy Sailing.
John B
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Last edited by John_Bedini; 11-03-2011 at 05:42 PM. Reason: Correction
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  #2002  
Old 11-03-2011, 06:42 PM
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[QUOTE=John_Bedini;165139]Jim,
Good work.
I still say that the Milliamp reading is because of the internal impedance of the cell. That cell should light a 2.8 volt Led and stay until surface charge is gone. Can you do that test to see how long it takes to run down?.
John B[/QUOTE

John,
How long should/could the surface charge last once the load is placed on it?
Meaning, how do we ascertain what is surface vs intrinsic capacity?
By no means are my little cells what I would envision as suitable for extended large loads. By golly they light LED's but need larger mass.
I am specifically working on mixes, and geometry for building larger.
Thanks for the clarification as to note when one can know surface charge is gone. My thought was to short cell then look at it.
Or just leave it be, would the surface charge dissipate?
Thank you again
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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Old 11-03-2011, 07:20 PM
NextGen1967 NextGen1967 is offline
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Quote:
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I still don't understand why people are not putting a load across the cell and then take the amp reading, while at the same time show the voltage on the cell drop. Even though the voltage drops and the amps go down, it still gives us a good basis to run off of.
BTW our cells still run the little WM using SSG ckt after all this time, we only have to add a few drops a week.

Patrick
@patrick,

What is the average power rating of your cell? And did you notice a declining time in water intake needing.

I agree, that would give a good indication... Having a load that takes down the voltage maybe to 75 or 50% of standing voltage. It would allow power (watt) measurements, which is a much more realistic value and is more easy to compare.

Yellow, Orange and Red led's usually work around the 2.0 volt level, with clear (transparent) lens. Green are also available in the same voltage range, tough also in many other voltages. With some luck your DMM meters could show which forward voltage the led's have, so one could use them in declining voltage order while testing.

Agreed with JB, the cells should always be on a load, as when there is potential (voltage), the Crystal structure will be forced to align. More potential difference is more forced.

Surface charge would normally dissipate in several hours, and after 12 hours most if not all would be gone. However, for this kind of cells, just place a light load to dissipate the surface charge... Normally this would drop quit rapidly. By measuring the slow down curve of the drop one could more or less determine when the surface charge is gone. I think however that with these kind type of cells, we cannot really speak of 'surface' charge.

Shorting the cell fore a few seconds will cause a 'bump'.. There would be a rapid Vdrop, but once the short is gone, the cell recovers quickly again with a rapid Vclimb which 'overshoots' the (new) standing voltage again. In this kind of cells the 'overshoot' could result in a higher voltage then before the short, because of crystal alignment.... There could actually be merit in a high continue pulse discharge for these cells due to conditioning of alignment. However, I would need to verify this myself.

--
Ron.
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Old 11-03-2011, 08:08 PM
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Was good to see the 3V reading Jim
Got some pencil 'leads' from the dollar store last week and will see about making comparison cells.
As far as ZnO, all I have is that sunburn cream stuff and it's bombed out on each cell try when using it.

Last night saw an odd phenomenon with my 'failed' cell that's still running the Ha'penny oscillator (overcooked baking soda, boric acid, alum, couple of drops of Spic+Span cleaner when the cell registered hardly anything on first building).
Poor thing is just limping along now at 0.475V, but the oscillator is still going. I think the quit level of the oscillator is approx 0.45V so it may or may not reach the 1 month run time in a couple of days.
There was a storm that went through yesterday evening and the cell was on 0.500V. With seeing a rise to 0.504V in the first few minutes, I took it outside onto our porch and let it sit there for a while. Was my wife's idea about it being closer to the natural forces at work and away from any household frequencies.
The reading after half an hour went down, for the first time ever in such conditions to 0.483V.
So, I brought it back in, disconnected the cell and let it rest for 1 hour. It's the only break it's ever had and at this point in its life, something had to change for the better. It rose to 0.567V.
It was put back on the circuit and the mV began to fall back off over several hours. Now at 0.475V it seems the difference was a fluffy charge, rather than a replenishing charge.
If the cell had remained stationary and not been touched at all, the reading now would have been expected to be approx 0.492V....so, removing the load may have been detrimental.
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  #2005  
Old 11-03-2011, 10:11 PM
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Crystal Cells

At all
Maybe I did not say it right. Surface charge would be the charge developed at the beginning of the cells life. Later it would settle down, say to a working voltage of 1 to .5 volts under load this is where the curve is important. The cell can and does sustained under this load for a time period, then you can notice if the cell is gaining which means the cell has formed as a constant current source semiconductor. Impedance is the next issue as the load seems to be divided in the crystal mixture. So if the cell can do 30 Ma then the working part is 15 Ma, you must balance the load to 1/2 the total short circuit current. So when Jim showed the current under short circuit of 14 Ma then working under load it should run at 2.5 to 7 Ma with no problem.
John B
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Last edited by John_Bedini; 11-03-2011 at 10:12 PM. Reason: correction
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  #2006  
Old 11-03-2011, 11:14 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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Thanks for the clarification John.
I hadn't realised about the 1/2 loading
What has been noticed though, are the very fine lines at which a 'tipping point' can be reached. Very fine for my cells anyway, which typically output only a couple of mA for long terms tests, if that.
Too small a load and a cell will die at a week old. Too large a load and the same thing. But, Goldilocks loading sees cells of exactly the same mixture trundle along for much longer.
In the case last night, the cell had been very happy, for what it is, to drop slightly as it went per day, then charge itself a bit with electrical storms.
When disconnected from that apparently happy balance, it reacted negatively.
Cell now reads 0.476V, so it seems to be stabilizing out.

However, it might need a defibrilator applying to get through to 1 month of running on Monday.
The dog in the film 'There's Something About Mary' springs to mind
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  #2007  
Old 11-04-2011, 02:14 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Crystal Cell powering a pulse motor

Pulse Motor being powered by Crystal Cell - YouTube
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  #2008  
Old 11-04-2011, 03:56 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Guys,
JB is correct on the cells internal impedance issue. Here is a video showing TWO carbon based electrodes of two different mass and surface area as related to measured voltage output, Resistance, Current levels etc.
I will be off bench for a bit. All thoughts welcome and I appreciate your patience with my experiments. Still just scratching the surface.
DUAL CATHODE TO ANODE RATIO FINDINGS V, I, R, IN SAME CELL - YouTube
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #2009  
Old 11-04-2011, 12:03 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jehdds View Post
Guys,
JB is correct on the cells internal impedance issue. Here is a video showing TWO carbon based electrodes of two different mass and surface area as related to measured voltage output, Resistance, Current levels etc.
I will be off bench for a bit. All thoughts welcome and I appreciate your patience with my experiments. Still just scratching the surface.
DUAL CATHODE TO ANODE RATIO FINDINGS V, I, R, IN SAME CELL - YouTube
Very Best Regards,
Jim

It doesn't feel like a fair test. A carbon welding rod is not the same as Pencil lead. It would be fair to stick with the same thing. For example use multiple pencil leads wrapped up together instead of the carbon welding rod, this will make the test more fair.
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  #2010  
Old 11-04-2011, 02:08 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ibpointless2 View Post
It doesn't feel like a fair test. A carbon welding rod is not the same as Pencil lead. It would be fair to stick with the same thing. For example use multiple pencil leads wrapped up together instead of the carbon welding rod, this will make the test more fair.
Agreed.
Fair enough, but it does still point out there is something
To surface area of the cathode can skew findings as well as perhaps performance, or so it seems.
Very best regards,
Jim
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