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  #1951 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 07:21 PM
everyidea everyidea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiant1 View Post
I dont know how to polarise the crystals as they form.
Put the salts between two large magnets that are in attraction mode. This static field will polarize your salts when they are formed.

But, I believe they might loose this polarization if and when they are heated. Then use a pulse to train them back into alignment.

rw
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  #1952 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 07:45 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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The last two posts make me wonder if pulse train polarisation is a better method than the brutal cooking method that is sticking the cells on a 12V battery and similar. Of course, the man to know would be Mr. Bedini

I'm catching up - made a hybrid stovetop cell last night that works
Wrong ingredients, right results, a non burned version of the 2 week runner.
Pre-cooked baking soda, boric acid on top and then alum, all on a piece of aluminium foil. Melt the mix on the lowest electric stove setting for 15 minutes, add the electrodes (copper and galvanized steel) add alum again to cover the electrodes and melt that in the same way for several more minutes. Allowed to dry thoroughly, then added a shiny cardboard over the mix and sealed the cell.
The copper electrode has a red oxide layer, created by high heat on the stove previously. Got no magnesium so hence the steel again.
Initial reading of 1.018 volts. No polarisation was used.
It ran a blocking oscillator last night for 12hours and showed 0.750V an hour ago when removed. It now reads 0.841V and is still climbing back up
We have a storm due tomorrow and it'll be interesting to see if it reacts.

So, i'm a little way behind, but now have seen a cell run with no added water. Don't worry, am listening, watching and reading and must too thank Chuck and John for their work, as well as you other chaps - this stuff is great

Last edited by Slider2732 : 10-26-2011 at 07:50 PM.
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  #1953 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 09:18 PM
gnino gnino is offline
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behavior of my glue battery

hi i can read the resistance only if I connect the positive terminal of the tester to the negative pole of the cell and i read a negative value,the meter is in 20 mega ohm range

ingredient: salt substitute, magnesium sulfate, vynil glue,aluminium and copper electrodes

is normal?

sorry for my bad english i'm italian

ciao luca
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  #1954 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 10:22 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnino View Post
hi i can read the resistance only if I connect the positive terminal of the tester to the negative pole of the cell and i read a negative value,the meter is in 20 mega ohm range

ingredient: salt substitute, magnesium sulfate, vynil glue,aluminium and copper electrodes

is normal?

sorry for my bad english i'm italian

ciao luca
Dear Luca,
I have seen negative resistance values with my ZnO
Material with two magnesium electrodes.
Very best regards,
Jim
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  #1955 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:41 AM
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Lidmotor Lidmotor is offline
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Good news & Bad news

The good news is that the things that have been working are still working but the bad news is that nothing new that I have tried has worked.
Both Penny LED oscillators are running on IB's "stove top" cells and solid. The cell's voltage vary up and down but I am confident that we have a winner there. The stainless steel and magnesium cell that has the auto on/off LED light has worked out well and is stable. It goes down to about .65 volts during the night and recharges up to .95 volts during the day when the circuit turns off the LED.

What didn't work was spraying a mixture of salt substitute and water on an old Lasersaber carbon and magnesium cell. Just plain tap water had the same effect. I don't know why. What also didn't work was a stove top cell I made with just salt substitute and Alum. I don't know why that didn't work either. Not understanding chemistry and blindly trying things really hinders me on this project.

Lidmotor

Last edited by Lidmotor : 10-27-2011 at 02:43 AM.
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  #1956 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 05:32 AM
NextGen1967 NextGen1967 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lidmotor View Post
The good news is that the things that have been working are still working but the bad news is that nothing new that I have tried has worked.
Both Penny LED oscillators are running on IB's "stove top" cells and solid. The cell's voltage vary up and down but I am confident that we have a winner there. The stainless steel and magnesium cell that has the auto on/off LED light has worked out well and is stable. It goes down to about .65 volts during the night and recharges up to .95 volts during the day when the circuit turns off the LED.

What didn't work was spraying a mixture of salt substitute and water on an old Lasersaber carbon and magnesium cell. Just plain tap water had the same effect. I don't know why. What also didn't work was a stove top cell I made with just salt substitute and Alum. I don't know why that didn't work either. Not understanding chemistry and blindly trying things really hinders me on this project.

Lidmotor
Good to hear the things continue to work. Also the bad new is not to bad, as most things we learn is from failures. Maybe the magnesium ribbon is a bit oxidized... Rubbing it with a fine mesh sandpaper might help.

I just found a small piece of left over magnesium ribbon in my junk box, and tried JB's dual copper oxide idea.. I used a binder to for the oxide layers, and having a piece of about 1.5 inch square copper, with a tiny bit of magnesium stick in a mix of epsom and washing soda powder with a few drops of water and 2 tiny tiny spot drops of chlorine, I get about 1.23 volt (it did climb up to 1.5 volt) at some 20mA.

I have not oxidized the magnesium strip yet.. I want to try both JB's as well as Jim's idea to make the oxide layer on the magnesium. (do not have the materials yet... slow country where i live in).

I think might know how JB did this, due to the fact he mentioned a 'strange semiconductor' and self heating. This tells me the magnesium was attacked by some solution. Could be wrong tough.

A bit speculation, as we don't know YET much about JB's cell working principle, but as I understand JB, he uses some hydrogen bonding in his mix, which allows for an 'open' structure (many Oxygen gaps) and there is an transfer happening that comes to an end at a certain point -when the water contained in the lattices is mostly depleted-, but with incorporating water in the cell structure, the process is reversed, and it repeats again from the start.... The water probably uses a capillary effect to spread distributed into the mix (the special hole design).

By replacing the Epsom salt and washing soda, probably get a much higher amperage reading, but I do not have the right Carbonates and Hydroxide available here yet... The IGBT transistor idea seem to work tough.

John, any help on here ?

--
Ron.
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  #1957 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 06:49 AM
area46241 area46241 is offline
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strange stovetop results...

I finally got around to attempt the stovetop cell using a copper strip heated and dipped in borax laundry booster stuff...then i mixed up alum epsom and borax cooked it till liquid and put the mag stick on top the weird thing was it had 1.44 volts and zero amps on my meter was wondering if the copper should be left alone and not treated with the borax wash....i feel like lidmotor about my latest attempt my kitchen is a salt dissaster now however i am getting a good education in cell technology....
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  #1958 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 04:05 PM
everyidea everyidea is offline
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Three things that can make an exothermic reaction with Mg:

1. HCL acid = Mg + 2 HCl → MgCl2* + H2
So, you get chlorine ions infused with the Mg.

2. Hot water vapor = Mg + hot vapor H20 → MgO + H2
So, you get Magnesium Oxide

3. (DANGER) Mg + CuO + flame → Thermite reaction

Two things that would make Mg hydrophobic:

1. Cold water = Mg + cold H20 → Mg(OH)2 + H2
So, you get Magnesium Hydroxide that repels water

2. A nano glass bead layer that repels water. This can be applied through evaporation deposition.

@Lidmotor, to help understand what MR is doing, study this image. He's doing this:

+ electrode (p-type oxide) → n-type Polycrystalline that blends to a p-type → - electrode (n-type oxide)

rw
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  #1959 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 07:21 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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area46241 - That mix sounds similar to mixes that i'm doing presently. I'll guarantee the cell will instantly increase to a few mA's with a touch of water added. A few mA, which will deplete over a couple of hours and leave a cell with around 1mA for weeks if sealed. Not much use in it, but better than zero if you have an efficient blocking oscillator to work with it.


Are BBQ starting ribbons the best way of obtaining Mg ? I just don't have any, nor a budget for anything with shipping. Am having great success with galvanized steel, but it's steel, galvanized.

Would like to try the IBGT transistor, but am not sure on the method.

There was a storm that went through last night, huge mess of a thing with little in the way of lightning. Not really a true indicator of possible powerful electrostastic influences. The 2 weeks running stovetop didn't flinch, hopefully it'll still be running when something stronger comes through.
So, last weeks Sun CME data becomes more interesting.
@Lidmotor - did you experience cell risings on Monday and Tuesday ?
Here's the data from those days and, with last nights storm not producing the risings of previous storms on the same cell, have to conclude I have no idea

Monday Oct 24th
12.30am 0.571V
12.30pm 0.572V
07.30pm 0.579V 14 days constant running
------------Direct CME's of 5 then 7 at 10pm --------
Tuesday
12.30am 0.583V
02.30pm 0.590V
07.30pm 0.594V
Wednesday
12.30am 0.593V
02.30pm 0.582V
07.30pm 0.577V
Thursday
12.30am 0.569V
THUNDERSTORM -
04.50am 0.568V
01.30pm 0.552V
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  #1960 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 07:48 PM
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John_Bedini John_Bedini is offline
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Heptahydrate Cells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidmotor View Post
The good news is that the things that have been working are still working but the bad news is that nothing new that I have tried has worked.
Both Penny LED oscillators are running on IB's "stove top" cells and solid. The cell's voltage vary up and down but I am confident that we have a winner there. The stainless steel and magnesium cell that has the auto on/off LED light has worked out well and is stable. It goes down to about .65 volts during the night and recharges up to .95 volts during the day when the circuit turns off the LED.

What didn't work was spraying a mixture of salt substitute and water on an old Lasersaber carbon and magnesium cell. Just plain tap water had the same effect. I don't know why. What also didn't work was a stove top cell I made with just salt substitute and Alum. I don't know why that didn't work either. Not understanding chemistry and blindly trying things really hinders me on this project.

Lidmotor
Lidmotor,
I guess your not having any luck with the chemistry. The Carbonate Cell is constructed as I said to Ibpointlass, and yes I did build his cell to check the current. The Star Cell design take advantage of the pattern of the center electrode. You Guys need to think this one out.
Heating Copper forms Corpus copper the P device. Now leave that in the oven or flame until you get the black oxide layer over the red and leave it alone, do not scrape it. you now have two layers N and P. The chemicals must be pure no substitutes or you think you know better. Do the simple experiments first with the salt substitute and borax as Ibpointlass did.
It would be much better if you would use the Magnesium Cup as I did, it has already been pointed out how to get the oxide layer on the Magnesium so I do not want to repeat that. Take the cell that far first with what Ibpointless did without the glue as that is just a binder you need to form something like a cement crystal that will harden. Get it to this step first then we will take this a step further. And no that is not what Marcus is doing as I said before everybody would be hard pressed to make that Hydrate including Me. Even if I know the Mix I have had no success making it as something seems to be missing. However I do understand the Chemistry and can make other things do the same thing with far more power in Ma.
You just need to take your time in building it as it is not easy as it looks.
John B
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  #1961 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 07:59 PM
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Lidmotor Lidmotor is offline
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OK--I will keep trying

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Lidmotor,
I guess your not having any luck with the chemistry. The Carbonate Cell is constructed as I said to Ibpointlass, and yes I did build his cell to check the current. The Star Cell design take advantage of the pattern of the center electrode. You Guys need to think this one out.
Heating Copper forms Corpus copper the P device. Now leave that in the oven or flame until you get the black oxide layer over the red and leave it alone, do not scrape it. you now have two layers N and P. The chemicals must be pure no substitutes or you think you know better. Do the simple experiments first with the salt substitute and borax as Ibpointlass did.
It would be much better if you would use the Magnesium Cup as I did, it has already been pointed out how to get the oxide layer on the Magnesium so I do not want to repeat that. Take the cell that far first with what Ibpointless did without the glue as that is just a binder you need to form something like a cement crystal that will harden. Get it to this step first then we will take this a step further. And no that is not what Marcus is doing as I said before everybody would be hard pressed to make that Hydrate including Me. Even if I know the Mix I have had no success making it as something seems to be missing. However I do understand the Chemistry and can make other things do the same thing with far more power in Ma.
You just need to take your time in building it as it is not easy as it looks.
John B
Thanks John. I'll keep trying. Maybe by just building something it will help with the understanding part that I struggle with. It has worked for me before. I call them "learning tools".

Lidmotor
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  #1962 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 08:03 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Lidmotor,
I guess your not having any luck with the chemistry. The Carbonate Cell is constructed as I said to Ibpointlass, and yes I did build his cell to check the current. The Star Cell design take advantage of the pattern of the center electrode. You Guys need to think this one out.
Heating Copper forms Corpus copper the P device. Now leave that in the oven or flame until you get the black oxide layer over the red and leave it alone, do not scrape it. you now have two layers N and P. The chemicals must be pure no substitutes or you think you know better. Do the simple experiments first with the salt substitute and borax as Ibpointlass did.
It would be much better if you would use the Magnesium Cup as I did, it has already been pointed out how to get the oxide layer on the Magnesium so I do not want to repeat that. Take the cell that far first with what Ibpointless did without the glue as that is just a binder you need to form something like a cement crystal that will harden. Get it to this step first then we will take this a step further. And no that is not what Marcus is doing as I said before everybody would be hard pressed to make that Hydrate including Me. Even if I know the Mix I have had no success making it as something seems to be missing. However I do understand the Chemistry and can make other things do the same thing with far more power in Ma.
You just need to take your time in building it as it is not easy as it looks.
John B
John,
Any thoughts on the ZnO type cell?
Thank you again for all your insight and guidance.
Have you noticed increase in output with smaller particle size in the constituents?
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1963 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:06 PM
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John_Bedini John_Bedini is offline
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Heptahydrate Cell

Jim,
I would stay away from Zinc as it does not perform well in the cells, yes for a zinc carbon battery it works great with the galvanic action. Look at the hydrates magnesium something that only attacks the Magnesium once to form a oxide layer. The magnesium will be white if the attack is correct. You need the most current you can get. Chuck and I let these cells dry out before we hook them up. The reason we do this is all Galvanic action then has stopped and the Co2 does not attack the magnesium. Maybe it would be easy for you all to get a fire starter stick make the electrode like I said then play with the silicates doped with the salt substitute in a cup. Please listen to what I'm saying about this cell as it has taken a long time for me to do. What to start with Go to the store and buy drying silicate add the Salt substitute and experiment from that point, but make the electrode as I said. you want to convert the Hydrogen to Co2 with this chemical, you might even add a small bit of calcium carbonate, it's the carbonate that is going to generate the Co2.
John

Last edited by John_Bedini : 10-27-2011 at 09:11 PM. Reason: correction
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  #1964 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:33 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Jim,
I would stay away from Zinc as it does not perform well in the cells, yes for a zinc carbon battery it works great with the galvanic action. Look at the hydrates magnesium something that only attacks the Magnesium once to form a oxide layer. The magnesium will be white if the attack is correct. You need the most current you can get. Chuck and I let these cells dry out before we hook them up. The reason we do this is all Galvanic action then has stopped and the Co2 does not attack the magnesium. Maybe it would be easy for you all to get a fire starter stick make the electrode like I said then play with the silicates doped with the salt substitute in a cup. Please listen to what I'm saying about this cell as it has taken a long time for me to do. What to start with Go to the store and buy drying silicate add the Salt substitute and experiment from that point, but make the electrode as I said. you want to convert the Hydrogen to Co2 with this chemical, you might even add a small bit of calcium carbonate, it's the carbonate that is going to generate the Co2.
John
Thank you John,
I definitely have the white oxide layer and the
Magnesium is NOT being digested.
What would you expect the maximal current fro
The cell? I have found that once you really juice it and the electrolyte solidifies, the galvanic is done.
Have you seen current be less affected by desiccation than voltage?
Just wondering.
I know what I have is not a Mg/Carbon galvanic cell.
Thank you so much again,
Very best regards,
Jim
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  #1965 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:38 PM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Heating Copper forms Corpus copper the P device. Now leave that in the oven or flame until you get the black oxide layer over the red and leave it alone, do not scrape it. you now have two layers N and P. The chemicals must be pure no substitutes or you think you know better. John B
For those who have not tried to make the semiconductor copper or who have not experienced the best results, here is a couple of things to remember when attempting this.
First - wash the copper with soap and water. Do not scour the copper as you do not want any scratches.
Second - wash again with a lye soap and rinse with distilled water. This will remove any oils left on the copper from your fingers. From this point on, do not touch the copper again using only forceps, needle-nose pliers, to handle the copper.
Third - since I use a torch, The copper is placed on a stainless steel plate for even heat distribution. Heat only one side of the copper. Do not turn it over and heat both side.
There is a great article on this at:
The H.P. Friedrichs (AC7ZL) Homepage
As JB has said, this is not terribly easy, but these steps will help produce a successful semiconductor.
Good Luck,
Brad S
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  #1966 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:03 PM
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Crystal Cells

Quote:
Originally Posted by jehdds View Post
Thank you John,
I definitely have the white oxide layer and the
Magnesium is NOT being digested.
What would you expect the maximal current fro
The cell? I have found that once you really juice it and the electrolyte solidifies, the galvanic is done.
Have you seen current be less affected by desiccation than voltage?
Just wondering.
I know what I have is not a Mg/Carbon galvanic cell.
Thank you so much again,
Very best regards,
Jim
Jim,
I would say that crystal cells have different ranges and levels of voltages. The real limiting factor is the cells impedance anywhere between 1.5 Meg Ohms to 350 Ohms, but does the cell stay at this impedance, NO. The cells sometimes seem that they are dead but that is far from the truth as Chuck and I found out. They can be shorted out by water and then dry out and be right back.

Alum forms an ever expanding crystal. So it is advisable to limit the amount of alum in the mix if you can. Sodium Carbonate will short itself out with to much water in the mix.

However an easy experiment to see, this is simple.

Rochelle Salts 3 spoons Epsom Salts 3 spoons, Alum 1/4 spoon. then copper and Magnesium, just plain copper will do. Heat this mix until it is just liquid and no further pour in a cup to emerse the electrodes in.
Polarize when it is in-between states, ( Between solid and Liquid) only do this one time and not at more then the voltage of the cell, say 1.5 volts that is it.
Now let set with a load on it. This load should be a meter and a resistor. when the load goes down add a couple drops of water and watch. Soon you will not need to add water for weeks.
Why the Alum crystal as it grows pulls water from the air. To even slow this process down more add flower drying silica. The current of the cell can be anything depending on the area of the electrodes, normal between 2 Ma to 35Ma. so by experimenting you can come up with the mix that works. Warning adding Sodium Carbonate to Alum causes a reaction the neutralizes the two chemicals.
Do the experiment until you understand how the water is locked up in the end and your circuit is still running.
John
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  #1967 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:59 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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John,
Thank you again.
The reason I asked
About ZnO was that it absorbs water and
Co2 to make essentially zinc carbonate,
Thus perhaps a viable option.
More time with the mortar and
Pestle. So far my mixes happily digest
Water when totally desiccated. More work
For me to be sure.
Thank you so much again,
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1968 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 12:27 AM
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chuck H chuck H is offline
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Rochelle crystals

@ Radiant1 and all.
The magnets change the way the crystal grows (the shape and length). Also be patient... sometimes it takes 2-3 days for them to grow if you did your mix correctly.
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  #1969 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 12:42 AM
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Crystal cell/Mg

@ everyidea and and all:
The reaction that happens(heat) is the oxidation being removed from the Mg instantly. The Mg becomes very clean and shiny and way more conductive (then it is ph balanced instantly) Galvanic at that point is stopped or very minimal. Then the semi conductor type layer is in place as the H20 starts to go away... I may have not explained that very well though. It is a very fast process. I guess you could look at it as it is a semi conductor already but this process makes it a semi conductor that is usefull in this application. You take away the bad oxides and replace it with 1 that is usefull...

Last edited by chuck H : 10-28-2011 at 01:07 AM.
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  #1970 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 01:52 AM
NextGen1967 NextGen1967 is offline
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Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Lidmotor,
I guess your not having any luck with the chemistry. The Carbonate Cell is constructed as I said to Ibpointlass, and yes I did build his cell to check the current. The Star Cell design take advantage of the pattern of the center electrode. You Guys need to think this one out.
Heating Copper forms Corpus copper the P device. Now leave that in the oven or flame until you get the black oxide layer over the red and leave it alone, do not scrape it. you now have two layers N and P. The chemicals must be pure no substitutes or you think you know better. Do the simple experiments first with the salt substitute and borax as Ibpointlass did.
It would be much better if you would use the Magnesium Cup as I did, it has already been pointed out how to get the oxide layer on the Magnesium so I do not want to repeat that. Take the cell that far first with what Ibpointless did without the glue as that is just a binder you need to form something like a cement crystal that will harden. Get it to this step first then we will take this a step further. And no that is not what Marcus is doing as I said before everybody would be hard pressed to make that Hydrate including Me. Even if I know the Mix I have had no success making it as something seems to be missing. However I do understand the Chemistry and can make other things do the same thing with far more power in Ma.
You just need to take your time in building it as it is not easy as it looks.
John B
John,

Having made the red and black layer (sorry I stubborn and used a binder, but it seemed to work anyhow), I made another one in the original way and noticed no (direct) difference... I would advice tough to use JB's pure method.

However, I later on also made the oxide layer on the magnesium strip, which allowed me to do something I also would really advise others to do, to just SEE the effect... Once you SEE this, you will maybe better understand it.

Once you have a piece of copper plate with the 2 said layers and the magnesium ribbon with oxide layer, place the DMM probes on each metal, and then just touch (WITHOUT any MIX, and just DRY) the Mg strip -of course ONLY the layered part- on the copper plate... place it at several positions and be amazed

by using NO water and NO mix, one will read anywhere between 0.5 to 1.86 volts (1.86 volts would mean you made an almost perfect PN layer).

Without this PN layer, things in a later stadium might go wrong, and the N layer on top is important for having a better current output later on when you try the mix as JB said, and continue to try different mixes.

An intriguing note:

While touching these electrodes dry together, we can get great voltage, but next to no amperage (at least with my Mg oxide layer at this moment).

An exception to this is Jim's ZnO mix (not a ZINC electrode, but a mix that contains ZnO), he is able to produce CURRENT (and quite a lot) when doing the same said dry touching... This -to me- is quite amazing, and in my opinion needs more attention also. In my opinion, the oxide layer on his Mg metal is different in some ways.

A good way to check if your oxide layer on the magnesium strip is -more or less- correct, is to measure its resistance... Place one lead of the DMM on an edge of the magnesium that is NON layered, and place the other lead of your meter over the layered part... Probing at many spots, you would need to have an 'open' resistance reading (meaning >40Mohm)... Even when you WET the OXIDIZED part, you still would read an open reading.. if not, the oxide layer is unlikely to work correct and you will have an galvanic action.

Also, I agree with JB, that it is not like in the MR picture, the PN layer simply makes out a -kind of- IGBT in combination with the Mg metal itself (having an NPN type), and it is *this* part that could be very well the amplifier part JB was mentioning, and this gate also controls the amount of current flow (together with the -kind of- diode at the other end, and the mix part). Well, that is -my interpretation of it anyhow-

--
Ron.
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  #1971 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 02:09 AM
NextGen1967 NextGen1967 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck H View Post
@ everyidea and and all:
The reaction that happens(heat) is the oxidation being removed from the Mg instantly. The Mg becomes very clean and shiny and way more conductive (then it is ph balanced instantly) Galvanic at that point is stopped or very minimal. Then the semi conductor type layer is in place as the H20 starts to go away... I may have not explained that very well though. It is a very fast process. I guess you could look at it as it is a semi conductor already but this process makes it a semi conductor that is usefull in this application. You take away the bad oxides and replace it with 1 that is usefull...
Chuck,

That is indeed kind of a cryptic way of explanation (to me)....

Let me try to explain what -i think- you just said.... (not to sure)...

You have the magnesium metal, and then -by a quick process- the already -bad- existing oxide layer is removed, and the magnesium metal becomes shiny.

However, is this magnesium metal now complete (as in end processing), or *now* it is a good time to place the correct layer over it? (I really think it is the later part - Am I correct in this assumption?).

If I am allowed, this fast process might be achieved by A (not necessarily THE) mix - right? (I hinted already earlier as of how to do this). This mix takes away the bad layer (the standard air caused oxide layer, which is a conductor type layer, which we do not want), and this A mix would change in opaqueness through this process ? It is a rather violent process, that is why I used the wording attacked earlier on.

--
Ron.

Last edited by NextGen1967 : 10-28-2011 at 03:09 AM. Reason: Added the word 'necessarily', because there are multiple ways to achieve the same effect.
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  #1972 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 04:20 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Guys,
FYI, you can use the rectified output
Of a Kromrey to polarize.
Small test cell last night charged to 2.8v,9mA.
Need to explore this more.
I whacked it 200v 200mA. Seemed to raise the level a little.
I think it takes less time to make the oxide this way.
Time will tell.
Very best regards,
Jim
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  #1973 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 05:31 PM
NextGen1967 NextGen1967 is offline
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Quote:
If you're good at reading between the lines and merging it with what has been said then you'll understand Chuck's post. There's been talk of four different layers put onto Mg; ZnO, MgO, Mg(OH)2 and Cl. Seeing that Cl has been discussed as a CO2 converter and that HCL acid can heat and strip Mg oxides in a flash and bond with Mg to form a MgCL layer, it would be deduced that this is the process Chuck is talking about for use in their CO2 producing carbonate cells.

Ron's cells are very interesting too, seeing current can be produced with the touching of the coated electrodes. I agree with both ron and JB regarding the toughness of getting the layering of the Cu to stick. In my tests, the CuO wants to "pop" off when the Cu+Cu2O cools after heating. I agree that using a binder or evaporation method would be an easier way to ensure its placement.

I posted the MR cell to help understand what he was doing, not the JB's carbonate cell. It's a starting point. After reading MR's papers, there is a great deal of resonant balancing that he does between electromagnetic and mechanical properties, along with resistance balancing, electron training and plate design. I now agree with JB that making a MR cell would be like patting your head, rubbing your belly, while riding a unicycle on a tight rope. But, it can be done...

rw
Yes, seems correct :-)

These methods by the way (often in dual mode) can be done in pure chemical way as well in call it electrochemical way (zap it with current, to 'bake' the layer). Jim has some very good video's on his Youtube channel about this.

Tough it are not my cells that produce current but Jim's ones (the ZnO type). My ones are good in high voltage, but low amperage.. I got some 10 to 12uA, using a 20mm or so ribbon length.

Jim get slightly less voltage, but *much* more amperage, while using tiny electrodes.... with Zero water and electrolyte mix. To me this indicates some importance.

About the CuO... The website given earlier on how to do this best does a good job... I followed that way (minus the removing of the black layer of course), and got a 95% success rate on developing the black layer.. you can rub and tap it and it won't come off, it also doesn't crack anymore. the 5% failure rate is due to droplet spots (some 55 tiny of them), which show the reddish layer below. Next time I can avoid this error probably.

An interesting note: I used the same copper plate as before, but have cleaned it really thoroughly, and after scrubbing and washing, used the muriatic acid to get the copper clean to the bone. The side of the copper that i had previously used with a binder reached an success rate of nearly 100%... It has some 8 dots on it where the black layer is less thin, but nonetheless the layer is still there.

One thing that skips the mind easy is that after the layers has been made, on both electrodes, other mixes could serve as 'electrolyte'... One only need to stay within the borders of not using mixes that are to aggressive on the created layers.

I am lacking the ability to get powders/solutions etc. here in a timely manner, as -don't laugh- it takes me here between 21 to 90 days before a product reach me... so I will always walk somewhat behind hehe. It's just me being located in a part of the world that is not so advanced.... Got used to the slowness here tough.

I do really not know anything much about the MR cell (just recently when I came aware of this threat) I heard the term MR repeated over and over again, but I personally think it isn't that hard -have to stay positive- right :-)

It might be that once one opens an MR cell (which I assume is sealed airtight ?) *something* leaves the mix, so it cannot be analyzed anymore, unless you realized it must have been there in the first place... Something with about twice the mass of water, and which mimics its working. I forgot the name of it... its a long time ago I knew about it. Tough this is speculation on my part, since I never had an opportunity to order some of this product and play with its properties.

Jim's cell however gives -to me- much more confidence at the moment, due to the said high current production... I have so far no one seen done this, except JB with a huge glass like cell. I do NOT say to disregard chucks/JB's cells at all! let me make that clear. However 2 semiconductors touching each other with no fluids or mix in between producing current is as said unique to me. I have done this long before (with JB's copper oxide layers), but this had at that time involved heat to get the layers in conductive mode.

One more thing. I think it was chuck? who found out some very important aspect of the magnesium metal..... BEFORE applying (any type) of 'correct' layer on it, the old one that might be there has to be removed... this is extremely important since a minute tiny defect in the 'correct' layer would otherwise result in a *very* rapid deterioration of the layer due to the 'old' layer below it will cause the 'correct' layer to rapidly detach.

I per accident destroyed my 'correct' layer, and in my rush to create another one, I was to eager and rushing and due to that I got a very bad result.. It did look like perfect and it worked like perfect (well slightly less performance then i had before), but after a good inspection with some 200 probing spots, I found many tiny defects where the layer was less then optimal in resistance... Lesson, be sure to work correct and do not shortcut.

--
Ron.
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  #1974 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 10:32 PM
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chuck H chuck H is offline
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Carbonate cells

Heres a video showing some of the carbonate cells in series running a array of LEDS designed for 12 volt 2amp service. Also we show 2 cells running an osc circuit(note the brightness).

Carbonate cells in series.AVI - YouTube
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  #1975 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2011, 10:49 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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2A !
Excellent and i'm looking forward to getting THERE eventually

The oxide layers are increasingly fascinating, especially with direct voltage obtainable with no mix.
It seems I can get a P junction fine, but am looking for another common material to gain an N. I'd like to build a transistor anyhow and remember the lady with her homemade versions on YouTube. Wondering if that process can relate to the cells. A seperate circuit built in that amplifies the generated output.

For grins, but hopefully of some use to others, I wondered just what water on it's own may do. A baseline of a thing, how much is this galvanic situation playing a part - what does the water hold within, on its own.
Made a coffee and was thinking about all this, when it dawned on me to simply stick the leftover boiled water in a plastic container and find out !

Here's what I found:
Water Battery - doing work - YouTube

Last edited by Slider2732 : 10-28-2011 at 10:53 PM.
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  #1976 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2011, 12:08 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Chuck and John,
Great work. Question or two.
What is the Anode to cathode surface area ratio estimated to be in your cells?
Does increased Anode SA and smaller Cathode SA boost current for you?
I made a mini cell last night with carbon fiber as positive electrode and it seemed so for me. Can you corroborate this?
Again great work all.
Very Bedt Regards,
Jim
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  #1977 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2011, 05:08 AM
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Lidmotor Lidmotor is offline
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Electrode work

@All
I worked on the copper and magnesium electrodes today---on a small scale. I took a 2" piece of copper wire and beat it with a hammer until it was flat and the same width as a strip of magnesium ribbon. The copper was heated until black and the magnesium was oxidized using the electrolysis method. I carefully dipped each electrode in distilled water and coated them with crystal electrolyte mixture. The electrodes were then carefully clamped together with a wood clothes pin. The voltage was about 1.4v but with less than a milliamp. There was no seperator just the two metal strips with a thin layer of crystals between them. The electrode preparation may or may not have been why this worked. I knew that as the water dried out the air was going to get in there and probably stop the thing so for grins I just sprayed the whole thing with WD-40. To my surprise it kept on working. I hooked Penny No.2 up to it and 7 hours later now she is still blinking away.


John B.
Tomorrow I will try making that star copper electrode using a drill chuck like you suggested. I have been going over your last posts and they really helped. Thanks.

Lidmotor
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  #1978 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2011, 05:57 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Originally Posted by Lidmotor View Post
@All
I worked on the copper and magnesium electrodes today---on a small scale. I took a 2" piece of copper wire and beat it with a hammer until it was flat and the same width as a strip of magnesium ribbon. The copper was heated until black and the magnesium was oxidized using the electrolysis method. I carefully dipped each electrode in distilled water and coated them with crystal electrolyte mixture. The electrodes were then carefully clamped together with a wood clothes pin. The voltage was about 1.4v but with less than a milliamp. There was no seperator just the two metal strips with a thin layer of crystals between them. The electrode preparation may or may not have been why this worked. I knew that as the water dried out the air was going to get in there and probably stop the thing so for grins I just sprayed the whole thing with WD-40. To my surprise it kept on working. I hooked Penny No.2 up to it and 7 hours later now she is still blinking away.


John B.
Tomorrow I will try making that star copper electrode using a drill chuck like you suggested. I have been going over your last posts and they really helped. Thanks.

Lidmotor
Dear lidmotor
Which electrolyte mix/constituents did you use?
How many volts and amps for the magnesium Prep?
Very best regards and fascinating working with WD 40!
Jim
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  #1979 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2011, 06:24 AM
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Lidmotor Lidmotor is offline
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Mini electrode cell

Quote:
Originally Posted by jehdds View Post
Dear lidmotor
Which electrolyte mix/constituents did you use?
How many volts and amps for the magnesium Prep?
Very best regards and fascinating working with WD 40!
Jim
Jim this was a pretty simple experiment and I didn't think it out much. The magnesium strip was put into small cup of distilled water and epsom salt. I just used a piece of copper wire for the other electrode and hooked a 12v SLA up. The Mg strip bubbled alot. I didn't check the amperage. The oxide coating on the Mg was a light grey (not white) and not very thick. The crystal mixture was borax, salt substitute, and alum (equal parts). I was kinda surprised that this cell worked. Later in the day I took it out of the clothes pin and carefully wrapped a plastic coated twist tie around it to keep it together. Tommorrow I may take it apart and examine the Mg with a magnifying glass to see if it got eaten up. We will see if the WD 40 did what it designed to do----displace the water.

Lidmotor
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  #1980 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2011, 07:54 AM
NextGen1967 NextGen1967 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lidmotor View Post
@All
I worked on the copper and magnesium electrodes today---on a small scale. I took a 2" piece of copper wire and beat it with a hammer until it was flat and the same width as a strip of magnesium ribbon. The copper was heated until black and the magnesium was oxidized using the electrolysis method. I carefully dipped each electrode in distilled water and coated them with crystal electrolyte mixture. The electrodes were then carefully clamped together with a wood clothes pin. The voltage was about 1.4v but with less than a milliamp. There was no seperator just the two metal strips with a thin layer of crystals between them. The electrode preparation may or may not have been why this worked. I knew that as the water dried out the air was going to get in there and probably stop the thing so for grins I just sprayed the whole thing with WD-40. To my surprise it kept on working. I hooked Penny No.2 up to it and 7 hours later now she is still blinking away.


John B.
Tomorrow I will try making that star copper electrode using a drill chuck like you suggested. I have been going over your last posts and they really helped. Thanks.

Lidmotor
Lidmotor,

Good work!

Yes, it's amazing what JB and Chuck have put together at this stage now. The power they can produce now with their cells is practical usable as reading or emergency light, and already adequate enough to power portable deceives such as RTV, mp4 players and all those kind of things. In the place where i live, many people would be very happy already to have ONE or TWO of john's cells for the electricity demand for their whole house! (my neighbor has no electricity, water and gas at all). I'm the wizard around here and have gave away many of the simple light providers (earth battery, wire in the sky, metal plates placed on local hollow block etc etc.... very crappy things, but they work). So you might understand that these kind of cells we try to make now could do a lot of good here. Haha, I have been thinking to introduce your penny here also, as they can be made of virtually anything... they will still work to a better or lesser degree, but the flash freq must be at least 25Hz to make it usable. Led's are problematic here -cost wise- (the rest, I use often junk parts and left overs that I had myself), the lighters here have leds, and those are very handy tough.

As for the star cell shape, by increasing the contact area of the magnesium electrode, you would increase amperage, but amperage is greatly determined by the kind of mix and electrode deposit layer also. If the Mg layer is correctly made, your penny will continue to work for a long long loooong time :-)

I have been playing around with sprays also (conductive and non conductive, and they can do surprisingly things).

It's best to as quickly as possible have the layer build up on the magnesium, as this shortest the 'pitting' period -and thus build of bad layer- ... Optimally one should start with a very clean magnesium electrode, and place the layer on it in the shortest time possible... A 'good' layer on top of a 'bad' layer spells trouble on the mid long term. This has -in my opinion- little to do with lattice orientation -well it does still-, but the main factor of the zapping with energy here is to get that layer build up. Lattice orientation -better said domain orientation- is another thing that is beneficial also.

@ all & John,

I did a critical analyzing on my black coating earlier today, and despite the fact it 'looked' 95% okay, I measured many many defects on the layer still (the eye wont show it, but measurements do). It was a tedious process, since i mapped over 1267 measurement points, manually. The defects were not critical (well some of them were), but it will shorten long term reliability. Main problem basically is to increase the thickness of the black layer (Yes John, I *do* know why this black layer is so important, but there *are* ways to use binders without -to much- negative effects... It is a trade off however. I have also been thinking about high velocity sputtering, but this is not simple also, and again, that is something you can't do with the average house and kitchen tools - Luckily i have a special kitchen tough :-)

@John,

My brain and thinking is working in a very straight and orderly way (it might have to do something with a high sky fall&meet earth accident when i was young), sometimes I might appear crude (direct) towards people with my wordings/writings, but rest assured my intentions are nothing but good towards all and everyone here, and your research is highly appreciated.

--
Ron.
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