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  #1921 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2011, 08:09 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Chuck,
Great work.
What mA are you getting from each individual cell and do you see series additive current like I am seeing?
I believe the length of time the cells produce steady state is related to electrolyte MASS/VOLUME.
Output intensity in voltage and current seems less affected.
Do your tests concur?
Bravo again,
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1922 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2011, 09:26 PM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Smile I wanna try!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck H View Post
Here is a video showing a carbonate crystal cell with really good and steady output. These have been going strong for a couple of months now. The mix is propriatary. so I cant divulge it at this point.

MVI_3330.AVI - YouTube
@Chuck and John:
Very impressive preview and thank you for the sharing. It appears that you have these cells in series to up the voltage output. From this configuration are we to assume that each cell is generating over 30ma. I am also guessing that the LED’s are in series as well? When you indicate that this is proprietary, are you using a mix given to you from someone else, or you just don’t wish to share? I hope this is something we will one day be able to replicate and that you will disclose the information required to do so.
With utmost respect,
Brad S
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  #1923 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:05 PM
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John_Bedini John_Bedini is offline
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Cell Current

Jim,
I cant say much about the mixture as I'm still in the testing stage. The current of these cells is around 150 Ma each cell.
John B
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  #1924 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:32 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck H View Post
Here is a video showing a carbonate crystal cell with really good and steady output. These have been going strong for a couple of months now. The mix is propriatary. so I cant divulge it at this point.

MVI_3330.AVI - YouTube


Its a Sodium carbonate cell isn't it?
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  #1925 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:47 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Jim,
I cant say much about the mixture as I'm still in the testing stage. The current of these cells is around 150 Ma each cell.
John B
John,
No worries about the mix.
All with time. Are you seeing additive current with the cells in series?
Within the canister and in-between the canister?
Thank you sir,
Very best regards,
Jim
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  #1926 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2011, 10:48 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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From the Wiki:

"Sodium carbonate (also known as washing soda or soda ash), Na2CO3 is a sodium salt of carbonic acid. It most commonly occurs as a crystalline heptahydrate, which readily effloresces to form a white powder, the monohydrate. Sodium carbonate is domestically well-known for its everyday use as a water softener. It can be extracted from the ashes of many plants. It is synthetically produced in large quantities from salt and limestone in a process known as the Solvay process."

Ahhh, heptahydrates. OK, finally getting it !

Ashes of plants is interesting, plus back to rocks perhaps with limestone.


*Edit* wait a minute, that was exactly the process that used to be going on at our local ICI plant back in Northwich, Cheshire.
ICI Winnington had huge raised up lake beds of the stuff, looked like flat topped hills and were called the Lime Beds.
Nearby Nantwich has been mined for salt since Roman times.
The fumes were like a fog above them. Often thought it would make a good setting for a Doctor Who episode

Here ya go: Winnington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Well fancy that eh
Plus, it's where Polythene was 'invented', when an experiment went wrong.

Last edited by Slider2732 : 10-25-2011 at 10:58 PM.
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  #1927 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2011, 11:21 PM
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John:
Is that a cell that has been cut in half (in front), and are those copper plates inside of the cutout of Mg cylinders that you made on the lathe?
Really good new about each cell having 150 mA. You're the man... thanks for sharing.
NZ
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  #1928 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 12:25 AM
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Questions

b rads: Cells in series. LEDs in parallel with 10 ohm resistor.

jehdds: Current appears to be additive to a point.

nick z: No not cut in half just milled that way on lathe. Yes copper as I stated in video.
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  #1929 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:08 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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A quick way to get Sodium carbonate is from tooth paste. Getting it from tooth paste is not the best way to obtain Sodium carbonate but it does get your feet wet.
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  #1930 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:09 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck H View Post
b rads: Cells in series. LEDs in parallel with 10 ohm resistor.

jehdds: Current appears to be additive to a point.

nick z: No not cut in half just milled that way on lathe. Yes copper as I stated in video.
Chuck/John,
Thank you so much. I just wanted to make sure what I am seeing is not anomalous. Your video is amazing on many levels. Thank you for this gift.
I hope to find the limit to the additive current, for grins. Is the additive nature for the current VOLTAGE delimited, or more related to electrode material choice?

Very Very fine work guys.
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1931 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:12 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Originally Posted by ibpointless2 View Post
A quick way to get Sodium carbonate is from tooth paste. Getting it from tooth paste is not the best way to obtain Sodium carbonate but it does get your feet wet.
Just got back from the grocery Arm and Hammer All natural SUPER Washing Soda! 3lb box. 3 bucks.

FYI.

maybe some fun with chalk and this...... huuuum
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  #1932 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 01:49 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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I never had any luck with sodium carbonate or baking soda type cells before. So this is got me thinking John Bedini must be using something more than Sodium carbonate or baking soda? Maybe some Potassium carbonate or some type of potassium? Or even Epsom salts? This is just all speculations.

One thing does worry me about the design. Its a cup like cells and the problem with these is that they easily trap water, where the top dries first and the inner can't dry due to top being dry. But I don't know the design and how they make it so my worries could be for nothing.
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  #1933 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 02:06 AM
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Ib:
I tried toothpaste and paper towel as the electrolyte on my 4 inch square brass/galvanized iron plate cells (pictured), and in no time the zinc was eaten up, and even the brass was a bit oxidized. Toothpaste is pretty caustic stuff. I hope its ok for the teeth.
Bleach also works as an electrolyte, some say that it works better than salt, but I didn't think much of it. I tried in on my Lasersaber type cell using the water filter element (carbon/aluminum wire). The aluminum wire does seam to last quite a while, but the output is not that impressive, as I get more from my capacitor can cells.
My table salt version of your glue cell is still going, I lost tract of how many months its been.

Jim: I tried wood carbon mixed with ground sea shells (calcium carbonate) but did not get good results. As the mix was too dry to conduct well, as I also added a some dry concrete mix. I may try the sidewalk chalk that I have, but I read that it may not be calcium carbonate, but that it now is made with or contains gypsum instead. I may try ground coral instead, next.
One of these days I may hit on the magic mix.

John and Chuck: Thanks again for the info on the Mg/Cu cells, very inspiring...
I was about to throw the towel in, with the tiny current levels that we are all getting. Your video gives us hope, again.
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  #1934 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 02:40 AM
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Heptahydrates

editAt All,
Remember that I'm using Magnesium and can not have any Galvanic Action, it's a no no. Toothpaste(Sodium Hydroxide) is not the same thing and the mixture is much different then straight Sodium Carbonate. This is a Hydrate mixture and this cell is using Carbon dioxide for fuel from the break down of the water inside the crystal. These cells use that hole you see for water intake this is why I gave the hint about Heptahydrates . The electrodes must be multiple metal bonded semiconductors. I figure your all on your own thing here and do not have time to listen to me, so I kept going on my experiments.
And again I'm not talking about Epsom Salts....

The cell that is cut in Half is patterned after a Emitter junction to a power semiconductor on a much bigger level. The reason I said Heptahydrates is because they lock up water, as soon as it is used up to form Carbon Dioxide then the cell remains for two to three days at full power output. The holes you see are for feeder tubes for water and not much. The Hydrates reverses the Ion flow so no galvanic action occurs and the process starts all over again. Magnesium is Sodium Carbonate in a crude form. The cells have been under rated at 150 Ma more like 250 Ma under short circuit. The cells gain power under load the four Leds at 3.2 volts @ 20Ma each are all in parallel, we could add more but we just need to finish the testing. As chuck said these have been going for months now under extreme conditions, water is the fuel and the hydrogen is converted to CO2.

Don't jump to conclusions here Chuck and I will explain it in much better detail in a better Youtube, and Yes Ibpointlass ( should have been B Rads) I know what your doing also with your mixture so you do not need to give your secrete mix away. You just need to explain where the energy comes from.

To make this cell requires some real chemistry and machining . Also how many did the experiment with the Salt Substitute on Lasersabers battery to see what happened ? The chloride is very important but you do not need the glue at all, as it just adds water for the Heptahedra mix.
John B

Last edited by John_Bedini : 10-26-2011 at 03:24 AM. Reason: edit
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  #1935 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 02:54 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
At All,
Remember that I'm using Magnesium and can not have any Galvanic Action, it's a no no. Toothpaste(Sodium Hydroxide) is not the same thing and the mixture is much different then straight Sodium Carbonate. This is a Hydrate mixture and this cell is using Carbon dioxide for fuel from the break down of the water inside the crystal. These cells use that hole you see for water intake this is why I gave the hint about Heptahydrates . The electrodes must be multiple metal bonded semiconductors. I figure your all on your own thing here and do not have time to listen to me, so I kept going on my experiments.
And again I'm not talking about Epsom Salts....

The cell that is cut in Half is patterned after a Emitter junction to a power semiconductor on a much bigger level. The reason I said Heptahydrates is because they lock up water, as soon as it is used to up to form Carbon Dioxide then the cell remains for two to three days at full power output. The holes you see are for feeder tubes for water and not much. The Hydrates reverses the Ion flow so no galvanic action occurs and the process starts all over again. Magnesium is Sodium Carbonate in a crude form. The cells have been under rated at 150 Ma more like 250 Ma under short circuit. The cells gain power under load the four Leds at 3.2 volts @ 20Ma each are all in parallel, we could add more but we just need to finish the testing. As chuck said these have been going for months now under extreme conditions, water is the fuel and the hydrogen is converted to CO2.

Don't jump to conclusions here Chuck and I will explain it in much better detail in a better Youtube, and Yes Ibpointlass I know what your doing also with your mixture so you do not need to give your secrete mix away. You just need to explain where the energy comes from.

To make this cell requires some real chemistry and machining . Also how many did the experiment with the Salt Substitute on Lasersabers battery to see what happened ? The chloride is very important but you do not need the glue at all, as it just adds water for the Heptahedra mix.
John B
John,
Thank you so much for all of this. I too see the need for occasional MICROSCOPIC amounts of water to regenerate. I have been making mini cells that are designed to dry out fast to see moisture effects.
What is your honest opinion of the cells I have shown and the mix.
I sincerely appreciate your candor. I made a cell last night that is less than 1cm and uses a mg/ .7mm carbon pencil led as the cathode.
It makes 9.5-10mA and 2.5V.
You can dry it, add one TINY drop and bingo back to max.
All thoughts welcome.

Very Best Regards, and again bravo on your work and results.
We keep on the path.
All with time and experiments.
Great job guys all of you.
Jim
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  #1936 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:02 AM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Good Things a Comin!

@Chuck and John
My apologies if I upset you in any way for my previous comments. In my profession (Computer Science – Integration and Application Development) “PROPRIETARY” is a bad word. This means no source code, no modifications unless you pay dearly. From your follow up posts, I can tell that this is not what I thought you intended. Do not think for a minute that we are not listening and learning. Some of us (me) are just a little slower than others. Very excited about full disclosure when you are ready. Water became less of a concern after reading this as I posted it several days ago. Here it is again”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washing_soda

Quoted from the page:
In chemistry, it is often used as an electrolyte. This is because electrolytes are usually salt-based, and sodium carbonate acts as a very good conductor in the process of electrolysis. In addition, unlike chloride ions, which form chlorine gas, carbonate ions are not corrosive to the anodes.”


Here is a link to a pdf that I have found very useful and I keep a copy of it in my notebook. I should have posted this long ago. “COMMON CHEMICALS AND SUPPLIES IN AND AROUND YOUR HOME

http://www.chymist.com/Common%20chemicals.pdf

Brad S

Last edited by b_rads : 10-26-2011 at 03:12 AM.
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  #1937 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:16 AM
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Heptahydrates

B Rads,
I, too must apologies to Ibpointless as I named him by mistake.
I understand what everybody is doing. Sodium Carbonate is the best for that but it takes much more as the cell must work like a current source with the hydrates. The tricky part may not be easy to do at home. Copper is the best but requires two semiconductors bonded together. Chuck and I are working on that to see if it can be made simple. But no luck with the simple yet. I understand no worry.
John B
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  #1938 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:36 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Dear John and Chuck,
I have noticed that WHERE I have been polarizing my cells may be of importance.
I could be possibly wrong. I also could be exceptionally lucky and I need to give credit where credit is due If I am correct.
I have been polarizing my cells very close to my Kromrey which has four VERY powerful magnetic stacks. I noted JB you made a video making a crystal cell in a magnetic field. This intrigued me a great deal.
So, for grins I have been fortunate enough to have such a small work area as to need to polarize VERY close to this magnetic field.

So is there any significance to this fortuitous proximity during the polarization phase?

I have also noted that the crystal cells I have made are subject to X-rays more significantly than a comparative galvanic cell.
This to me notes an assured lattice effect over galvanic.

I know this is really pushing, and I apologize. I welcome any and all thoughts if you can speak to this, as well as infinitely respect your silence as well.

Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1939 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 04:00 AM
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Polarization phase

@ jehdds and all:
Polarization was used when growing Rochelle salts(magnetic orientation)
If you feel you need to "polarize"...tap it on 12volts (early).
Yes more lattice than galvanic.
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  #1940 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 04:08 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck H View Post
@ jehdds and all:
Polarization was used when growing Rochelle salts(magnetic orientation)
If you feel you need to "polarize"...tap it on 12volts (early).
Yes more lattice than galvanic.
Chuck,
Thank you sir. Great to know on perhaps the right track.
I do tap it with 31.5 V. Early to be sure. I am still amazed at the output for so small a surface area.
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1941 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 04:27 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Dear John and Chuck,
This just hit me. If you saw my video clip showing the sub Zero Current spike on my Zn0 cell, and you have determined that your cell is digesting C02 Which in enough of itself a really neat thing, Have you ever attempted to feed it in a sub zero temp via a exposure to a dry ice environment to see if you see a spike in voltage and current? Please forgive my suggesting this as you probably already have done this. Let us know if you have or if you do see a current spike as I have. I know this is apples to oranges but would be an interesting test none the less.
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1942 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:27 AM
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Heptahydrates Crystal Cell

Jim,
We have not taken the cell down that far but now is the time since we are going to very cold temperatures here. I will try to get it down to 28 degrees outside since I'm going to be using it for outside lighting. I will let nature take care of the watering. I know that the cell is using Co2 because that is being produced from the hydrates. It is a far different mix and no heat is involved at all. I have a stereo scope that makes a video and will be adding that to the youtube when Chuck and I do it. I just half to wait for some more things to arrive for testing.
John B
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  #1943 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 05:39 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Jim,
We have not taken the cell down that far but now is the time since we are going to very cold temperatures here. I will try to get it down to 28 degrees outside since I'm going to be using it for outside lighting. I will let nature take care of the watering. I know that the cell is using Co2 because that is being produced from the hydrates. It is a far different mix and no heat is involved at all. I have a stereo scope that makes a video and will be adding that to the youtube when Chuck and I do it. I just half to wait for some more things to arrive for testing.
John B
John,
Fantastic. Golly knows it is a bit Nippy up here in Wisconsin to be sure.
Perhaps the sub zero current increase could be of benefit if there is a end result for the Zn0 cell type. At the minimum, it is interesting to be sure. I think it atypical to galvanic and is operating much differently. Would you recommend me obtaining a spectral/chemical complete analysis of my mix at this point? I would pursue this if you think it is prudent. I appreciate your differential in your cell. Please let me know if this pursuit that I am on should continue or if a tangential or different path is time better spent.
I will replicate your work to be sure. Thank you again and all input or guidance is appreciated beyond words. I am a fringe element. Sorry about my unconventional approach.
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1944 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 06:20 AM
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Heptahydrate Crystals

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibpointless2 View Post
I never had any luck with sodium carbonate or baking soda type cells before. So this is got me thinking John Bedini must be using something more than Sodium carbonate or baking soda? Maybe some Potassium carbonate or some type of potassium? Or even Epsom salts? This is just all speculations.

One thing does worry me about the design. Its a cup like cells and the problem with these is that they easily trap water, where the top dries first and the inner can't dry due to top being dry. But I don't know the design and how they make it so my worries could be for nothing.

Ibpointless,
Your right Sodium Carbonate or baking Soda are not the same thing chemically. The electrodes are very important as the positive must be two semiconductors in one. The problem is that it is very hard to make on one electrode without error. I'm up to almost 1000 degrees in the oven.
The semiconductor looks almost like a IBGT transistor on the copper side and a Schottky Diode on the Magnesium side, this is tough to do, you cant heat the magnesium so you must use oxide. It turns out to be a strange semiconductor. The Magnesium heats all by itself during this process once it's cool it's done. I have made those five but the sixth was a failure, it's all timing. Most do not know how to make semiconductors but they can be made almost out of anything. I have explored semiconductors my whole life and built many rock semiconductors. The word is as implied, semi-conductive. Do not let anybody feed you a line of crap about what you can make them out of. I have made all different kinds and will put it in the youtube video just to prove it. As I said I have seen this effect before at TRW but never had time to work on it till now, that is 35 years later. So nobody should give up on the Crystal Cells, it's the future electronics since everything is moving to low voltage high current.The Crystal Cell is a self powering current source, detector amplifier and so on and it can be modulated. I thought it was great when I was handed my first crappy point contact transistor. I could not do enough I passed my dad right by as he could not understand them, either could any of the engineers who ended up pumping gas after that. The excuse was they did not have a hot cathode to emit electrons, hogwash. So nobody give up, you can do it.
John B
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  #1945 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 06:23 AM
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NickZ NickZ is offline
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Guys:
More solar flares lately, and lit up skys in the southern states, probably never seen before. This may have an affect on some of the cells.

Northern Lights Seen Across Southeast U.S. | ABC News Blogs - Yahoo!
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  #1946 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:19 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Ibpointless,
Your right Sodium Carbonate or baking Soda are not the same thing chemically. The electrodes are very important as the positive must be two semiconductors in one. The problem is that it is very hard to make on one electrode without error. I'm up to almost 1000 degrees in the oven.
The semiconductor looks almost like a IBGT transistor on the copper side and a Schottky Diode on the Magnesium side, this is tough to do, you cant heat the magnesium so you must use oxide. It turns out to be a strange semiconductor. The Magnesium heats all by itself during this process once it's cool it's done. I have made those five but the sixth was a failure, it's all timing. Most do not know how to make semiconductors but they can be made almost out of anything. I have explored semiconductors my whole life and built many rock semiconductors. The word is as implied, semi-conductive. Do not let anybody feed you a line of crap about what you can make them out of. I have made all different kinds and will put it in the youtube video just to prove it. As I said I have seen this effect before at TRW but never had time to work on it till now, that is 35 years later. So nobody should give up on the Crystal Cells, it's the future electronics since everything is moving to low voltage high current.The Crystal Cell is a self powering current source, detector amplifier and so on and it can be modulated. I thought it was great when I was handed my first crappy point contact transistor. I could not do enough I passed my dad right by as he could not understand them, either could any of the engineers who ended up pumping gas after that. The excuse was they did not have a hot cathode to emit electrons, hogwash. So nobody give up, you can do it.
John B

Your new cell does seem very promising. I think you said it makes CO2, if this is true it would be best to keep the cell near a plant so that the plant can make O2 for everyone.

I have a question to ask you John, have you built one of my cells before? The Crystal glue cells or Stove top cell? These are very interesting cells but they're low power, but what you said about electronics keep using less and less power made me keep hope. Thank you.
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  #1947 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 11:24 AM
NextGen1967 NextGen1967 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
B Rads,
I, too must apologies to Ibpointless as I named him by mistake.
I understand what everybody is doing. Sodium Carbonate is the best for that but it takes much more as the cell must work like a current source with the hydrates. The tricky part may not be easy to do at home. Copper is the best but requires two semiconductors bonded together. Chuck and I are working on that to see if it can be made simple. But no luck with the simple yet. I understand no worry.
John B
John,

The two semiconductors on the copper, is the thickness of these layers of vital importance, or can this be more thick?

By incorporating a third (binder) material besides the (red) cuprous oxide (Cu2O), and the (black) cupric oxide (CuO), this third material could do the bonding between the two and the copper material. It also would allow to bond to carbon for example. The layers would be less in mass, tough thicker because of the binder.

I have the black oxide available shortly, and I have the binder. The red oxide lacking still.

It might be a working solution for all of us here to do it in a more simple way? Tough it might be less optimal, it still could perform adequate maybe.

--
Ron.
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  #1948 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 03:58 PM
everyidea everyidea is offline
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Exothermic to Hydrophobic Mg

Good reading: Reactions of the Group 2 elements with water

ScienceDirect - Colloids and Surfaces A: Physicochemical and Engineering Aspects : In situ synthesis of nanolamellas of hydrophobic magnesium hydroxide

rw

Last edited by everyidea : 10-26-2011 at 05:40 PM.
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  #1949 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 06:24 PM
radiant1 radiant1 is offline
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just made rochelle salts

I just made a batch of rochelle salts. I used a paint can for the water bath and a #10 can for the salt solution. It foams up a lot. Next time I will use the paint can for salt solution and a large pot for the bath. I poured the filtered solution into a container about 15 minutes ago and about 1/4 depth of it is allready precipitate. Hope Im getting rochelle salt as I used the whole 25 oz container of cream of tartar. I dont know how to polarise the crystals as they form.

Our clay box for holding plates is almost dry enough to fire.

We are going to dope with borox for boron, TSP for phosporous, and carbon dust. I am going to try to silver plate the copper sheets. american elements in LA is working on a quote for magnesium sheets.

Alan
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  #1950 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2011, 06:50 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Dear John Chuck and all,
Is pulse dc polarization at higher voltage and lower current a worthwhile way to polarize vs straight dc?
Just a thought.....
I will try tonight, and was wondering if anyone has tried this yet.
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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