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John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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  #1501  
Old 09-21-2011, 10:02 PM
seth seth is offline
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My latest version using the capacitor can and 5 minute charging time.

Crystal battery powers exciter - YouTube
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  #1502  
Old 09-21-2011, 10:37 PM
radiant1 radiant1 is offline
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cell progress, rochelle salt source?

We have now reduced a few cups of epsom salt - removed all of the water. Nothing hard just took time on low heat of a gas burner in a stainless steel bowl. Today I tried to find Rochelle salt locally in the CDA, ID. area and so far have not found it. Any one have a source and does it also need to be reduced? What's the ratio between the Epsom and Rochelle salt?

We have a 12K volt neon sign power supply for polariising cells as they cool as in making electrits. This freezes plus and minus ions in an out of equilibrium state.

Any one have a source for magnesium sheets?

I think on this forum some one posted a chart or a link of the relative plus or minus potentials of materials. Does any one know where that is or have one to post?
Thanks Alan
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Last edited by radiant1; 09-21-2011 at 10:39 PM. Reason: spelling error in title
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  #1503  
Old 09-21-2011, 11:08 PM
seth seth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiant1 View Post

We have a 12K volt neon sign power supply for polariising cells as they cool as in making electrits. This freezes plus and minus ions in an out of equilibrium state.
How are you going to avoid short circuiting the transformer when you charge the cell? I wanted to charge mine with HV, but immediately saw that the HV just shorted through the electrolyte (molten or solid and dry as a bone). The HV shorted throught the rock membrane too when I tried with that.

I got my Rochelle salts and Mg on ebay.
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  #1504  
Old 09-22-2011, 12:30 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Quick update on Zn02 Cells, Pile and sealed.
Day two, pile cell with two Carbon/Mg cells intermediary of Zn02/Epsoms
Showing 3.25 volts,
58.2 mA

Sealed Tube cell #4
1.65 V
36mA

Sealed test Cell #2 after prolonged shorting
1.54V
34mA

Has Anyone else tested the Zn02 & Epsom Mix?

Very Best Regards,
Jim

PS the Literal Crystal Cell IS GROWING CRYSTALS ON THE Mg especially where I rubbed a little Ti02 as crystal initiator.
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  #1505  
Old 09-22-2011, 12:59 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Marcus Reid's crystal battery.

John has a proprietary relationship with Marcus Reid, that's why he's Hocus Pocus'd a very simple process. Sodium silicate is the very best polycrystalline material to make crystal cell batteries from. Don't settle for less. Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead! We don't need to take a bum steer from Bedini.

Here's the curve ball news from Bedini:

"This is not the kind of battery I would consider as a crystal cell after viewing Marcus Reidís work and understanding the total process for building crystal cells ,this cell is a lot tougher then everybody thinks to build. The process involved are very time consuming and must be precise with the doping. Yes you can get the effect but will it last? Only time will tell on all these batteries/or crystal cells. So donít take this out of context in what I have said. As I have explained to Lidmotor on the phone this is not something that can be done on a kitchen table, you need a proper lab with all the materials to do it."
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  #1506  
Old 09-22-2011, 01:44 AM
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Crystal Cells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidmotor View Post
@John B.
You would like it over here at Catalina right now. The weather has been very mild and we will be sailing back to the mainland tomorrow. This trip has given me a chance to step back and reflect on what we are doing on this thread. The whole point was to try to make a better cell that lasted longer and was not a reinvent of something already done many times before. The Marcus Reid crystal cells seem to be what everybody is looking for. It is too bad that we can't make one at home. I hope that if they ever show up in Walmart that they are not too expensive.
I started watching some of the MIT lecture videos on YouTube dealing with solid state chemistry. They are very interesting if you can get through the mumbo jumbo boring B.S. that goes on in a 1 hour college lecture. It brings back some bad memories of my college days. I wanted to know how this type chemisrty works ---at least from the academic standpoint. Not everything that has been learned through the ages is wrong. Most of it is right and it is worth the time to study it if one can understand it.

I'll check in when I get back from my sailing trip.

@All
There is another YouTube replication of my "Penny" oscillator.

Blocking oscillator Replica - YouTube

What John B. has said about matching the load to the cells capability is very accurate and these type oscillators work quite well. The simple "homebrew" crystal cells that we can make right now need a micro amp draw in order to last a long time.


Cheers,

Lidmotor
Lidmotor,
Yes I would I used to go to Catalina all the time. California has the best weather of all, growing up was great in California. Out all night long cruising the Hot Rods. I'm watching the Solid State Semiconductor course, refresher for me as I had that once before, just cant remember all that, Talk to you when you get back home.
Happy Sailing Home
John B
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Last edited by John_Bedini; 09-22-2011 at 01:47 AM. Reason: edit
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  #1507  
Old 09-22-2011, 02:15 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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John B,
What are your thoughts on the Zn02/Epsom doped with Galina and Pyrite Cells?
They seem to bounce back and show NO oxide formation.
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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  #1508  
Old 09-22-2011, 02:44 AM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Burgess View Post
John has a proprietary relationship with Marcus Reid, that's why he's Hocus Pocus'd a very simple process. Sodium silicate is the very best polycrystalline material to make crystal cell batteries from. Don't settle for less. Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead! We don't need to take a bum steer from Bedini.

Here's the curve ball news from Bedini:

"This is not the kind of battery I would consider as a crystal cell after viewing Marcus Reidís work and understanding the total process for building crystal cells ,this cell is a lot tougher then everybody thinks to build. The process involved are very time consuming and must be precise with the doping. Yes you can get the effect but will it last? Only time will tell on all these batteries/or crystal cells. So donít take this out of context in what I have said. As I have explained to Lidmotor on the phone this is not something that can be done on a kitchen table, you need a proper lab with all the materials to do it."
Allen,
Call this a bum steer all you want, go full torpedoes ahead. Yes I do have a relationship with Marcus and I respect my agreement with him.
Have a little respect for others here. Another thing, I have never stopped anybody from using that material including you. Full torpedoes ahead, Allen show the group since you know.
John B
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  #1509  
Old 09-22-2011, 02:52 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Here is a classic semiconductor physics video that is really good. This video was made when semiconductor physics was still new and really show many good things and could help other understand why a crystal cell works due to its crystal lattice. Its about 30 minutes long and I highly encourage others to watch it all the way through.

AT&T Archives: Dr. Walter Brattain on Semiconductor Physics - YouTube
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  #1510  
Old 09-22-2011, 03:26 AM
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Warning to you all

Warning to the group, If you attempt to do what Allen is going to do then take the proper precautions for working with this chemical. Read the MSDS sheets since Allen forgot to tell you all this. It was ok for the cement cells since no cooking was involved, but not anymore.

MSDS Sheet

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Extremely hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Liquid or spray mist may produce tissue damage particularly on mucous membranes of eyes, mouth and respiratory tract.

Skin contact
may produce burns. Inhalation of the spray mist may produce severe irritation of respiratory tract, characterized by coughing, choking, or shortness of breath. Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by itching, scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering.

Potential Chronic Health Effects:
Extremely hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive, irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Nonsensitizer for skin. Non-permeator by skin. CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.

TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available. Repeated or prolonged contact with spray mist may produce chronic eye irritation and severe skin irritation. Repeated or prolonged exposure to spray mist may produce respiratory tract irritation leading to frequent attacks of bronchial infection. Repeated or prolonged inhalation of vapors may lead to chronic respiratory irritation.
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  #1511  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:21 AM
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cell progress, rochelle salt source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by radiant1 View Post
We have now reduced a few cups of epsom salt - removed all of the water. Nothing hard just took time on low heat of a gas burner in a stainless steel bowl. Today I tried to find Rochelle salt locally in the CDA, ID. area and so far have not found it. Any one have a source and does it also need to be reduced? What's the ratio between the Epsom and Rochelle salt?

We have a 12K volt neon sign power supply for polariising cells as they cool as in making electrits. This freezes plus and minus ions in an out of equilibrium state.

Any one have a source for magnesium sheets?

I think on this forum some one posted a chart or a link of the relative plus or minus potentials of materials. Does any one know where that is or have one to post?
Thanks Alan
Radiant 1
Where are you in the CDA area? What do you need let Chuck and I know.
John B
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  #1512  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:06 AM
llynch llynch is offline
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I think this is right for what is left after cooking off the water:

Potash alum = potassium alum sulphate
Epsom salt = magnesium sulphate
Rochelle salt = potassium sodium carbon hydroxide

An interesting link regarding direct carbon fuel cells in relation to carbon hydroxide as an electrolyte. Publish date is Oct. 2011.
A Theoretical Study of the Carbon/Carbonate/Hydroxide (Electro-) Chemical System in a Direct Carbon Fuel Cell


Another that shows Rochelle, Epsom and Alum crystal structures.
The structures can be rotated and allows for distance,angle measurements.
Dom's crystal growing page
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  #1513  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:20 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Saftey precautions.

John's absolutly correct. Work in a well ventilated area, open the doors and windows, wear gloves, coveralls and eye goggles, all the things a floor waxer needs to do to peal the old wax from the floor with stripper. It's at least an equally hazerdous job.

What's required is to assemble and melt the tiny moisture absorbing pellets in boiling water, add the sodium hydroxide anti corrosive doping agent, reduce the liquid to a thick syrup, and pour it into the aluminum form to crystallize. The same thing we've seen Hutchinson do in his recipe video. Reasonable precautions are advisable: Don't splatter. Keep from rubbing your eyes. Don't lean over and smell the fumes from the beaker. The biggest hazard is to have children mistake the tiny pellets for candy, which is a very common problem.

I'm chiding John a little bit. He's been extremely generous, and I'm among his most ardent fans, but don't over sweat the hazards.
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  #1514  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:38 AM
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Water Glass/Sodium Silicate

Allen,
Just buy the water glass and be done with it, it's cheap stuff. 5 gallons for 67 dollars, maybe safer.
The chemical store:
Sodium Silicate 5 Gallons - Sodium Silicate by The Chemistry Store.com Inc
John
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  #1515  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:11 AM
Allen Burgess Allen Burgess is offline
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Sodium Hydroxide.

Sodium Hydroxide, more commonly known as LYE, pictured below in solid pellet form, also commercially available in soluble form.
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  #1516  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:44 AM
seth seth is offline
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@Allen

Thanks for the suggestion concerning pure sodium hydroxide pellets. I need to have a complete plan of what I'll do with them before I give it a try in the garage outside....So...

do you suggest using them with the classic epsom/rochelle 2:1 mix? Should I add the NaOH to the Al cap can before I add the salts? Should I heat the whole mixture to molten? Should I use pyrite or Galena as doping agents? Just a few questions that werew running through my mind. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer

My Al cap can cell still (only just!) lights the LED on my exciter this morning. It has dried considerably, but the voltage has dropped to 1.5, and the current start at 10mA and quickly decreases.
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  #1517  
Old 09-22-2011, 09:05 AM
seth seth is offline
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When I charge my cell with 12V a simple electrolysis reaction takes place. The electrolysis is of the water which is trapped in the molten salt crystals. Water in the air is also attracted into the crystal because the salt is a dessicant. When you charge the cell hydrogen bubbles away rapidly and in great amounts, suggesting that there is a large amount of water present in the cell (after heating it to melting point.)

Im sure the gas is hydrogen because if I put my lighter close to the cell when its charging I get the familiar POP! of the hydrogen exploding. Its pops every second or two....a lot of hydrogen is released in this process.

Conclusion

Heating epsom/rochelle salts doesnt get rid of the water for long. This is because they both like to absorb water from the air and do it very rapidly. They work as dessicants and suck water into the crystal, and will continue to do so until they are saturated with water.
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  #1518  
Old 09-22-2011, 03:40 PM
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NickZ NickZ is offline
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Seth:
Your cell is a combination of several of the ideas. Nice.
If you make bigger capacitor cells you'll have higher current too, as current is dependent on surface area, voltage is not as dependent on size. But the leds need current also, to light up 100%.

My cells still work fine, even after a couple of weeks of constant all night and all day lighting of a single white or red led. John says that I don't give them a heavy enough load, but I do, as any more load and the led won't light.
If you use a small capacitor cans to make your cells, you will get small results, with no stable current output. The drop in current is to be expected, as your electrodes are tiny, as well as the electrolyte mix.
Your cell will act as a drained AA battery, showing voltage but no usable or stable current.
The way to go is to use or make more cells, as well as much bigger cells, that will produce current. As an oscillator just ups the voltage at the expense of sacrificing the little current that a small cell can have. And some current is needed, to see a bright leds.
If current were not needed, the cells could be made of much smaller size, but Current output is dependent on Mass and the type of the electrodes used, as well as the working efficiency of the electrolyte materials.
If a bigger capacitor can cell using quartz/carbon electrolytes and a carbon rod center anode, won't light a red led on its own, then that cell is not made optimally. As it is possible to light a red led with a single cell. And in comparison, it's not possible to light an led with new 10.000 mA 1.5 volt D size battery.
To see a 4 volt led bulb light up bright, you'll need about 6 volts, or higher voltage, as the current in these cell is low, and the voltage will drop down to 1/2 its starting voltage, when under load. Point being, that more cells are better...
A Prolonged (5 min) charging can cause an electrolysis reaction that can deteriorate the cells. You can First check to see what the cells will do without the jump charge. But in anycase, more than a 10 second jump charge is not needed, as these cell don't really need to be polarized, at all. They produce good results from the get go, but do need to be sealed. Even the carbon can absorb moisture. And probably should be heated and totally dried first before using it.
The way to avoid galvanic deterioration is to avoid oxygen, which is in water, in the glue, as well as in all the salts. But like Brad and others have been doing, the hermetic resin casing seams like a good way to go. And the led light can be incorporated into the resin, as well.
That cell may not last "forever", but it may well be, that it will outlast the owner, and still be lighting up for his kids, even after he is dead and gone.
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:07 PM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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John Bedini,

Lets say you take a diode, any semiconductor diode, and since it has the same metal for the cathode and anode and replace it with copper and aluminum or any dissimilar metals; do you think that it would produce a voltage? Could these dissimilar diodes be manufactured so that they produce power. Is this battery that you talk about, is this like Marcus Reid's idea?

thanks.
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:15 PM
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Michael Kishline Michael Kishline is offline
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@Radiant1

You can get Mg sheets hear 049 - Magnesium Foil (One Roll) - GalliumSource

You can get Rochelle salts here http://www.alfa.com/en/GP140W.pgm?ta...e tetrahydrate

or from John B. since our in the area.

Good Luck
Mike.
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:25 PM
everyidea everyidea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Kishline View Post
@Radiant1

You can get Rochelle salts here http://www.alfa.com/en/GP140W.pgm?ta...e tetrahydrate

Mike.
For those trying to buy from alfa aeser, you will have to have a non residential address and be a business that would need these chemicals in order for them to ship it to you. Yes, they check. They denied my order, seams they don't like garage chemists.

@JB, could you have Rick stock these chemicals at Renascence to buy online?

rw
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  #1522  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:30 PM
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Michael Kishline Michael Kishline is offline
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Hey John B. thanks for everything buddy! I really appreciate all that you do!
It's not said enough.

FYI here's a little cheaper source for Sodium Silicate "Water Glass". Sodium Silicate - CQ Concepts

Good Skill
Mike
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  #1523  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:00 PM
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Michael Kishline Michael Kishline is offline
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Rochelle Salts

Quote:
Originally Posted by everyidea View Post
For those trying to buy from alfa aeser, you will have to have a non residential address and be a business that would need these chemicals in order for them to ship it to you. Yes, they check. They denied my order, seams they don't like garage chemists.

@JB, could you have Rick stock these chemicals at Renascence to buy online?

rw
everyidea try this site for photography Rochelle Salt Buy

Mike
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:19 PM
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Crystal Cells (Marcus Reid)

Ibpointlass,
Diodes are manufactured in a much different process then what we are doing, yes I have tried what you suggest but it did not work very good. I can do it with a doped piece of glass and the correct doping, just like the video you posted.
I do not want to be accused of giving you all a bum steer so I will just say this one more time. I do have a relationship with Marcus Reid, this is a now a known fact.

I have been testing his cells for days now and they work as he says. They do not go down in voltage in any way. I know the process to do it but wonder if I even want too. Sodium Silicate is dangerous to work with even if I have the equipment to do it. Everybody here has no idea what he does to make these cells, it's not what you think it is. The mixtures are completely different in his newer cells so it's going to be a problem. I do not want to talk about it because it can not be done on a kitchen table it takes to many hours to allow things to change from one thing to another, timing is very important in all of this.

If it's built incorrectly it does not hold up and it is dead in a short time. The Reid cell use two very special built semiconductors they are the opposite of each other when the cell is in operation. The water in the cell is locked up and can not do anything so no Ion movement is possible at all. The only thing moving are electrons in a loop, it plays the same tune over and over again.

The next thing is that it can reverse it self if it needs to, it can also be shorted for years as the energy moves into the cell until the short is removed. it can also adjust to any impedance placed on it. so I would say Allen is in for a big thrilling experience here.

One other important thing here is that it can reverse and then adjust itself for the proper direction of electron flow, so current goes high and holds then cell reverses current goes low and Led turns on. the cell can look like a Schottky Diode on one end and a reverse diode on the other end, and they can switch. so call all of this B.S but do not say I did not tell you so.
Good luck to all trying to build this cell.
John B
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Old 09-22-2011, 08:02 PM
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re: John and Seth

John
We are up in the Athol area. We need Rochelle salt, and if Magnesium sheets work better than aluminum sheets then that too.

Seth
How much power were you putting into what size cell when you melted everything? You probably need to change your power to area ratio like having too small of a fuse.
Alan
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Old 09-22-2011, 08:22 PM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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John,
What in your estimation is the benefit of using Rochelle salts over
Zn02? Have you made or tested any Epsom/Zn02 type cells?
Is this sub par in your estimation for material compared to Rochelle etc?
Thank you for the insights again.
Very Best Regards,
Jim
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Old 09-22-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiant1 View Post
John
We are up in the Athol area. We need Rochelle salt, and if Magnesium sheets work better than aluminum sheets then that too.

Seth
How much power were you putting into what size cell when you melted everything? You probably need to change your power to area ratio like having too small of a fuse.
Alan
You misunderstand - nothing melted. It shorted. When you put high voltage into a pair of electrodes which are immersed in electrolyte, the HV just shorts. I mean that the electrodes cant charge because the + 12Kv is connected directly to the - 12Kv.

So how will you charge the electrolyte with HV?
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:01 PM
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Being right there with an inventor is a privilege and requires some restraint
and patience when revisions are made.

Giving a bum steer is an idiom that conveys an idea that the group is being misguided. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead is a famous quotation of naval history it can mean a strong resolution to push forward with a mission having more importance than concern for casualties. Proprietary is often related to Bill Gates source code and hardware entangled loops that slowed the progress of Linux. The phone call to lidmotor that only labs can do this is mostly true, that as the thread progressed toward understanding, better crystals and solid state that more than kitchen variety materials and equipment were needed. This later more exotic forms are also of interest to the group as I understand it.

Please be careful that clever words are not used as we cannot interact face to face the import is lost and it could color someones character in a bad light.
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
I have been testing his cells for days now and they work as he says. They do not go down in voltage in any way. I know the process to do it but wonder if I even want too. Sodium Silicate is dangerous to work with even if I have the equipment to do it. Everybody here has no idea what he does to make these cells, it's not what you think it is. The mixtures are completely different in his newer cells so it's going to be a problem. I do not want to talk about it because it can not be done on a kitchen table it takes to many hours to allow things to change from one thing to another, timing is very important in all of this.John B
John:
With all the respect you deserve, I admire your attitude here and the reality check. This is not a direction I wish to pursue, after all this is just a hobby for me. This is the direction I enjoyed and will follow:

http://changingpower.net/articles/battery-can-run-on-mountain-dew/

If I cannot get my materials in a consumer friendly environment locally, and make in my limited work space, then I do not need to go down that road. My greatest pleasure has been lighting LEDís with simple cells and making circuits to run those cells. Possibly, my expectations are too low. Growing, cooking, mixing and gluing this stuff is a blast. In my opinion, the less fortunate of the world will benefit greater from the simple and cheap technologies than those they have no chance in doing. I admire the sophistication many of you have brought to this endeavor. Just one mans opinion.

Brad S
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:50 PM
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Rachelle Salts

Radient1
Your 15 minutes from me, do you know where I'm at?
I will give you some Rachelle Salts, magnesium sheets I do not have, but I have round slugs.
John B






Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Ibpointlass,
Diodes are manufactured in a much different process then what we are doing, yes I have tried what you suggest but it did not work very good. I can do it with a doped piece of glass and the correct doping, just like the video you posted.
I do not want to be accused of giving you all a bum steer so I will just say this one more time. I do have a relationship with Marcus Reid, this is now a known fact.

I have been testing his cells for days now and they work as he says. They do not go down in voltage in any way. I know the process to do it but wonder if I even want too. Sodium Silicate is dangerous to work with even if I have the equipment to do it. Everybody here has no idea what he does to make these cells, it's not what you think it is. The mixtures are completely different in his newer cells so it's going to be a problem. I do not want to talk about it because it can not be done on a kitchen table it takes to many hours to allow things to change from one thing to another, timing is very important in all of this.

If it's built incorrectly it does not hold up and it is dead in a short time. The Reid cell use two very special built semiconductors they are the opposite of each other when the cell is in operation. The water in the cell is locked up and can not do anything so no Ion movement is possible at all. The only thing moving are electrons in a loop, it plays the same tune over and over again.

The next thing is that it can reverse it self if it needs to, it can also be shorted for years as the energy moves into the cell until the short is removed. it can also adjust to any impedance placed on it. so I would say Allen is in for a big thrilling experience here.

One other important thing here is that it can reverse and then adjust itself for the proper direction of electron flow, so current goes high and holds then cell reverses current goes low and Led turns on. the cell can look like a Schottky Diode on one end and a reverse diode on the other end, and they can switch. so call all of this B.S but do not say I did not tell you so.
Good luck to all trying to build this cell.
John B
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Last edited by John_Bedini; 09-22-2011 at 10:34 PM. Reason: edit
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