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John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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  #4141  
Old 09-09-2012, 12:47 PM
redrichie redrichie is offline
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Maybe this question is for jb but if anyone else knows feel free. Edison invented the nickel iron battery for Electric cars. (Way back then he could get over 100 miles on a charge. Go figure.) The batteries are nearly indestructable. Would the alum work in this battery?
And please will someone tell me what to do with the sulphuric acid I dump out of these batteries. I have 3 batteries worth in a bucket. Would neutralizing with baking soda water be enough? Then just dump it onto the ground?
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  #4142  
Old 09-09-2012, 01:24 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prato_braun View Post
Hi guys,

could you please clarify which alum to use? I read somewhere that it has to be
Ammonium aluminium sulfate but on this site it says sodium aluminum silicate:

How to convert a Lead Acid Battery into an Alkaline Battery - Sepp Hasslberger

Thanks a lot guys.
Cheers,

Prato
Hello Prato, I also wonder what the electrolyte is for the iron / nickle battery. That sounds interesting as well. They mention 400 cycles on the Alum battery. I wonder what is the actual breakdown in the battery that ends the cycle or if it can be rejuvenated again. Lot's of questions eh?
John Hav.
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  #4143  
Old 09-09-2012, 04:18 PM
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John_Bedini John_Bedini is offline
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Alum Food Grade

Here it is again.
Alum

Ammonium aluminium sulfate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Quote:
Originally Posted by prato_braun View Post
Hi guys,

could you please clarify which alum to use? I read somewhere that it has to be
Ammonium aluminium sulfate but on this site it says sodium aluminum silicate:

How to convert a Lead Acid Battery into an Alkaline Battery - Sepp Hasslberger

Thanks a lot guys.
Cheers,

Prato
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Last edited by John_Bedini; 09-09-2012 at 04:42 PM. Reason: Adding info
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  #4144  
Old 09-09-2012, 06:18 PM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Hi John, just want to know why you use ammonium alum and not potash alum?? The ammonium alum is a synthetic product and the potassium alum is from a natural rock. Ammonium alum is highly toxic. My alum is from the ''clubhouse'' spice brand, it's potash alum (small crystals) and all my 4 crystal batteries are running since 2 weeks now with no water added since 7 days. I have a pulse motor running off 3 cells in series and a cell powering a blocking oscillator led.
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  #4145  
Old 09-09-2012, 09:27 PM
prato_braun prato_braun is offline
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Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Thanks for the quick clarification
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  #4146  
Old 09-09-2012, 10:07 PM
br0ns0n77 br0ns0n77 is offline
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So I'm pretty new to all this experimentation, but I was wondering if there was a way to use these batteries in parallel in a 12v system being they don't actually settle down above 11v?

How would these batteries become applicable running things like an inverter or powering small 12v appliances? Forgive me for my naivety.

Thanks for the insight in advance!
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  #4147  
Old 09-09-2012, 10:43 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lidmotor View Post
@ Dadhav
John-- you have to make sure that the metal is clean I found out and it is better if you rough it up with sandpaper to increase the surface area. John Bedini has the Alum mixture very strong---almost like syrup. You can get the food grade Alum at a spice supply outlet online. I have been forming my little one cell plates by zapping them with a 6v battery for about 5 seconds. It bubbles like crazy. Then I discharge it and go again. About three times and the oxides are formed up. I slow charge the cell with 3 volts to get the joules in. Expect to see about a 1.5 volt cell form up. 50/50 solder may or may not work. I think what I showed was 80/20. I found some more on Ebay and also at another dollar store. That stuff was labeled. I am currently trying linotype lead and that works very good. It is 84% lead with antimony and tin. The antimony makes the alloy stronger and stiffer.


Hope this helped.

Lidmotor
Hi Rusty. I decided to leave the solder behind and try a small LAB. This one is a small 1.3 ah that I totally abused and had no use for. I'm still getting used to the charge / discharge characteristics. I hear ya on the way you are charging. So far for the first 6 cycles it seems like my little battery does not like to be charged with two much current, but I don't want to elaborate yet till I know more about what I'm doing. I will say the battery is usable again. I have also been discharging the battery with the stator motor and window motor, just to mess around with the impedance characteristics. It looks like there's some new ideas to play around with. The battery liked running the stator motor with the half wave mini circuit and a feedback. The battery certainly isn't where I'd do back flips yet but it really is a fun experiment so far and I think it's worth spending time with, especially with John leading the way.
John Hav.
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  #4148  
Old 09-09-2012, 11:40 PM
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Converson to Alum/Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate

John Hav,
If you get a big one you will do back flips. Everybody is just goofing around with small devices. but if you start to get into the 24 Amp Hr range things will change. The reason for the food grade Alum is simple anything else and you will start to eat the active material on the plates. Epsom Salts is just good one time.Sodium Sulphate will soften the material on the plates and it soon will fall off. Using detergent and tap water will cause the plates to not take a charge as all the active material is dissolved away, the minerals and the chlorine in tap water is very damaging to the plates. The battery works two ways with Sulphuric Acid as a normal Lead Acid Battery or with Food Grade Alum or Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate.

The salt (Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate) is a very good Ionic compound and works very well for ionic transfer, just a little research will point that out. Again I will point out the two different impedances that take place. The impedance is high under charging so current is less. Under load the impedance is very much lower so current is available, My charts do not lie in the video as I have done this many times. Taking a dry Battery off the shelf is the test, and I did that on video and I'm going to do it again. You can lead people to the water but you can not make them drink. In all my years with batteries this one along with the copper magnesium Cell perform the best for current with shifting impedance. Most are unsuccessful because they use junk batteries, junk batteries do not perform, the old saying Junk in Junk out.

This is not Voodoo it's just the way chemistry works in the cells. If you think the store dry charge battery is hard to do try a 1951 Willard battery that has never been formed, that is on video too.
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  #4149  
Old 09-10-2012, 02:40 PM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Began testing homemade lead plates.

@all:
Had a little time yesterday afternoon so I finally mixed the electrolyte (distilled water and alum) and conditioned the homemade lead plates as per Lidmotor’s excellent instructions. The lead plates were formed from sinkers purchased at the sporting goods store. I did not have time to perform several deep charge / discharge cycles, but I was able to power a small load oscillator over night. On a quick charge – 10 minutes at 4.5 volts I am able to run a motor turning a propeller for several minutes and then run the oscillator for considerable time after that. I mixed my electrolyte very strong with hot water, the solution did not go clear, instead remained a milky white without any of the alum falling to the bottom. I will try to video this later and demonstrate this truly fun homemade lead/alum cell.

I have not tried this but intend to on some of my solar 12v batteries.
This is from:
batterystuff.com sells a product called “battery equalizer”.
Checking the msds for this product we find that this product is 0.1 – 1% cadmium sulfate.
This is what they claim:
“The Problem ~ Internal Resistance & Sulphation
Lead acid batteries have changed very little in 70 years. From the initial application of the electrolyte, sulphation begins coating the lead plates causing internal resistance. Aging batteries lose overall performance and require increased maintenance (more water) and charging time. Sulphation will eventually choke out any electrical activity. Stored and inactive batteries accelerate the problem of sulphation, leading to REDUCED BATTERY LIFE.”
“The Solution ~ Reduces Resistance & Sulphation
A small amount of Battery Equalizer to each cell will mix with the existing electrolyte solution. The improved battery chemistry will dissolve existing sulphation and prevent new deposits from forming for years to come. Batteries will charge faster, hold a charge longer, reduce terminal corrosion and reduce gassing (water consumption). Follow normal battery maintenance and DOUBLE BATTERY LIFE WITH ONLY ONE TREATMENT”
Brad S
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  #4150  
Old 09-10-2012, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_rads View Post
@all:
Had a little time yesterday afternoon so I finally mixed the electrolyte (distilled water and alum) and conditioned the homemade lead plates as per Lidmotor’s excellent instructions. The lead plates were formed from sinkers purchased at the sporting goods store. I did not have time to perform several deep charge / discharge cycles, but I was able to power a small load oscillator over night. On a quick charge – 10 minutes at 4.5 volts I am able to run a motor turning a propeller for several minutes and then run the oscillator for considerable time after that. I mixed my electrolyte very strong with hot water, the solution did not go clear, instead remained a milky white without any of the alum falling to the bottom. I will try to video this later and demonstrate this truly fun homemade lead/alum cell.

I have not tried this but intend to on some of my solar 12v batteries.
This is from:
batterystuff.com sells a product called “battery equalizer”.
Checking the msds for this product we find that this product is 0.1 – 1% cadmium sulfate.
This is what they claim:
“The Problem ~ Internal Resistance & Sulphation
Lead acid batteries have changed very little in 70 years. From the initial application of the electrolyte, sulphation begins coating the lead plates causing internal resistance. Aging batteries lose overall performance and require increased maintenance (more water) and charging time. Sulphation will eventually choke out any electrical activity. Stored and inactive batteries accelerate the problem of sulphation, leading to REDUCED BATTERY LIFE.”
“The Solution ~ Reduces Resistance & Sulphation
A small amount of Battery Equalizer to each cell will mix with the existing electrolyte solution. The improved battery chemistry will dissolve existing sulphation and prevent new deposits from forming for years to come. Batteries will charge faster, hold a charge longer, reduce terminal corrosion and reduce gassing (water consumption). Follow normal battery maintenance and DOUBLE BATTERY LIFE WITH ONLY ONE TREATMENT”
Brad S
Years ago there was a product called VX-6, I believe cadmium sulfate was the active ingredient in that also. It was a worthwhile product, don't know if its still around though
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  #4151  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:14 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
John Hav,
If you get a big one you will do back flips. Everybody is just goofing around with small devices. but if you start to get into the 24 Amp Hr range things will change. The reason for the food grade Alum is simple anything else and you will start to eat the active material on the plates. Epsom Salts is just good one time.Sodium Sulphate will soften the material on the plates and it soon will fall off. Using detergent and tap water will cause the plates to not take a charge as all the active material is dissolved away, the minerals and the chlorine in tap water is very damaging to the plates. The battery works two ways with Sulphuric Acid as a normal Lead Acid Battery or with Food Grade Alum or Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate.

The salt (Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate) is a very good Ionic compound and works very well for ionic transfer, just a little research will point that out. Again I will point out the two different impedances that take place. The impedance is high under charging so current is less. Under load the impedance is very much lower so current is available, My charts do not lie in the video as I have done this many times. Taking a dry Battery off the shelf is the test, and I did that on video and I'm going to do it again. You can lead people to the water but you can not make them drink. In all my years with batteries this one along with the copper magnesium Cell perform the best for current with shifting impedance. Most are unsuccessful because they use junk batteries, junk batteries do not perform, the old saying Junk in Junk out.

This is not Voodoo it's just the way chemistry works in the cells. If you think the store dry charge battery is hard to do try a 1951 Willard battery that has never been formed, that is on video too.
John, I got really jealous when I saw the old Willard batteries in a few of your videos. I remember them from when I was just a kid. OK, so thank you, your points where very clear. I found a few places selling what they said was food grade Alum but none of them could confirm it was ammonium. One said the formula was AL2 SO (3) H2. If anyone could link me to a site that sells at a reasonable price I would appreciate it. I was a little confused when mixing the alum for the small battery test. I heated the water a little and added alum but I had sediment before I reached a point where the solutions felt slippery or thick. I just assumed it was as saturated as possible without boiling and used the solution above the sediment. I did see your graphing support on the video. It was very impressive. I will buy a larger battery and I remember you making a recommendation a few times but I don't remember what your preference was.
Thank You.
John Hav.
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  #4152  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:35 PM
br0ns0n77 br0ns0n77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by br0ns0n77 View Post
So I'm pretty new to all this experimentation, but I was wondering if there was a way to use these batteries in parallel in a 12v system being they don't actually settle down above 11v?

How would these batteries become applicable running things like an inverter or powering small 12v appliances? Forgive me for my naivety.

Thanks for the insight in advance!

Guess no one has an answer for this?
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  #4153  
Old 09-10-2012, 09:31 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by br0ns0n77 View Post
Guess no one has an answer for this?
Br. I'll take a quick wing at it until someone comes along that knows better. You mention parallel batteries because the alum batteries settle down to a much lower voltage than a LAB. I think you may be referring to series batteries to get the voltage back up high enough to run 12 volt equipment. John said he expected a nominal voltage similar to a NiCad or NiMh battery. That would be about 1.2 volts per cell. OK that would boil down to a 7.2 volt battery instead 12 volts. So if you put 2 in series you would get 14.4. I would imagine most converters and also 12 volt accessories would run from the 2 batteries in series. I wouldn't bet my life on it but i think most stuff is designed to run at 14-15 volts because a regular battery can charge that high. John has some convincing video that shows the power density should be fine for such loads as well. Maybe this will help as an answer until the boss corrects me if I'm wrong. Just a gut feel but 2 alum batteries might be borderline on the high side.
You must remember this is new to most of us and results will certainly very.
John Hav.
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  #4154  
Old 09-10-2012, 11:33 PM
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Lidmotor Lidmotor is offline
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Good News---Bad News

@All
The Good News:

My converted motorcycle battery remains strong at around 10.5 to 11 volts. I don't have a way to know if it is fully charged though. You can't use a hydrometer on it and just looking at battery voltage is useless. I have not load tested it like John B. did in the video to see how long it will power something.


The Bad News:

I wanted to see what the pH was of the electrolyte so today I drained the battery into a plastic pan and tested it with a house plant pH tester. It is at around 3 -----it is mildly acidic. It bubbles baking soda. This is NOT an alkaline battery like some people have said. Alkaline would be about a pH of 7 and up The electrolyte is about as acidic as household vinegar (at least in my battery). The regular battery sulfuric acid is way down around a pH of 1or less so this Alum/distilled water electrolyte is much safer.

I am still wondering about the strange chemistry that must be going on inside the battery. Anyway I let the electrolyte settle out ( there was some grey lead oxide in it) and then just put it back in the battery. The battery is now usable and I have saved it from the junk heap -----I consider that a big success.

Lidmotor
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Last edited by Lidmotor; 09-10-2012 at 11:44 PM.
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  #4155  
Old 09-11-2012, 01:35 AM
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Ph Level

Lidmotor,
ALUM

Composition: Papermaker's alum is aluminum sulfate. Concentrations and addition amounts are usually based on either (a) the equivalent amount of Al2O3 or (b) the equivalent amount of the hydrate, Al2O3.14H2O. Alum is most commonly delivered as a liquid concentration, having a solids level of 8.3% as Al2O3 or about 50% as hydrate. Alum solutions are acidic. For instance, a 1% solution has a pH of around 3. Ionic species present in alum solutions are highly dependent on the degree of reaction with hydroxyl ions. It is tempting to say that "the composition is pH-dependent." However, in the vicinity of pH=4.3 the composition of alum solutions changes a great deal with very little change in pH. At pH=3 and lower the main species is a hydrated form of Al3+. At a pH near to 4.3 there may be oligomers such as Al13O40H487+ or related species that contain sulfate. In a broad range of pH between about 6 and 9.5 the main species will be Al(OH)3 (and possibly related species that contain sulfate). The soluble aluminate ion predominates at pH values greater that 9.5.

It is important to mix enough Alum. I hope to post a new video tomorrow on a lead alum crystal without growth so far. We will see how it goes.
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Last edited by John_Bedini; 09-11-2012 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Adding info
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  #4156  
Old 09-11-2012, 02:44 AM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Lead Plate and Alum Cell Replication

This is my replication of Lidmotors lead and alum cell.

Lead Plate and Alum Cell Demonstration

This was a fun cell to replicate - thanks Lidmotor

Brad S
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  #4157  
Old 09-11-2012, 04:24 PM
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Replications

Quote:
Originally Posted by b_rads View Post
This is my replication of Lidmotors lead and alum cell.

Lead Plate and Alum Cell Demonstration

This was a fun cell to replicate - thanks Lidmotor

Brad S
Brad ---You cell turned out good! It is always nice when someone can replicate what you did and verify your findings. The important aspect of that experiment was to prove that this Alum / Lead cell does work without the cell having first had sulfuric acid in it. Some people were claiming that the full size battery "conversions" were only working because the battery plates had already been exposed to the strong acid during factory forming and that some acid was still in there. John B., others, you, and I have now shown that a "virgin" cell can be formed with just the lead, Alum, and distilled water.

@All
I made a "sandwich" type cell like Slider and John B. did and it worked very well. I used a highly absorbant "felt" like material as the seperator and electrolyte holder. It is a synthetic drying towel material of some kind like the "Sham Wow" product. I put the assembled cell (yes I used rubberbands) into a small plastic bag like Slider did to retain the moisture. This is almost like the SLA that we are all used to. It isn't air tight sealed but the absorbant material retains the electrolyte so well --nothing spills out.

Lidmotor

PS----I am having excellent luck with the "linotype" lead material. Here is the link to the Ebay supplier. The pieces make great cell plates. There are enough pieces there to make many many batteries.

Linotype Lead - 10 lbs For Reloading, or melting into ingots | eBay
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  #4158  
Old 09-12-2012, 04:59 AM
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John_Bedini John_Bedini is offline
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Alum battery

Brad,
Have you run any charts on this cell it would be good to see the curve of this cell after it charges and discharges a few times.Good video and nice cell. Great replication.
John B




Quote:
Originally Posted by b_rads View Post
This is my replication of Lidmotors lead and alum cell.

Lead Plate and Alum Cell Demonstration

This was a fun cell to replicate - thanks Lidmotor

Brad S
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  #4159  
Old 09-12-2012, 07:11 PM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Charge and Discharge

@John, Lidmotor, Slider, and all:

I have not charted this cell. Just an observation though – when discharging – and this I noticed when powering the fan since the run time is much shorter:
The voltage holds at 1.4 volts approximately while the cell can deliver between 20 and 30mA. Once the current drops below the 20mA (approx 90% of run time) the voltage crashes. I can then put this cell on a blocking oscillator and it will pop back up the 1.5 volts approx and run at the voltage until the current drops below about 1/2mA and then the voltage crashes again. As long as the cell can produce the current that the load requires, the voltage remains stable.

Another thing that I have noticed is that run time is not linear to charge time. It appears that a quick charge will deliver nearly as much run time as a much longer charge. This is an anomaly that needs to be documented and verified. Much more can be explored to find the best charging method for these builds.

Brad S
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:56 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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@Brad - I concur, the rapid charging was seen in one of Jonh's vids recently and your data supports my own findings too. Almost a quick blip of charge will bring the cell back to doing useful work. I expected to see linear charging, the voltage rising as current goes in as well...but the indicators are that the impedance mismatch is what we are seeing in the rapid ability to charge.
I'm new to impedance, but am now 43, so it will probably factor with age lol

In some cells it will all be normal, but I think we are so used to seeing energy in = energy out and the time constants being always a linear expected line, that this catches us unawares. My 'cellphone' sandwich type appears not to gain much by remaining on charge for anything over 10 minutes. Charge is 200mA, 2V. All will, of course, equate out with the load and natural losses of the cell, but that rapid charge ability is something of a bonus
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:13 PM
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Lead Alum

Brad, Lidmotor, Slider

I'm posting another video over on the Energy Science Forum, will be up soon. The impedance of the cell is very important in this application. I think what you guys are saying is that your at the limit of the chemical charge. This is the same thing that will happen to a Lead Acid battery. Anything after the chemical reaches saturation is just going to waste. If someone would sit and work the chemical formula you could see what is going on with the sulphates in the cell. This process almost works like a Lead Acid Cell. It was also found that spacing of the plates is very important. When using used battery plates it's important that the lead oxide is reversed to change the chemical back to sponge lead. This is not your ordinary storage battery impedance wise. I'm still working on the chemical formula and it's strange.
John B
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  #4162  
Old 09-13-2012, 07:21 AM
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Progress report

@ John B., Slider, Brad, & All

I took a side trip and built the "Cat Exciter" that Slider showed running on his Lead-Alum battery. I got mine working and here is the video of it.

Homemade Lead-Alum cell powering an Exciter - YouTube

@John B.
That latest rechargeable crystal cell you made is a amazing. Your video showing it powering that motor while you charted the discharge curve was great. The way that these cells charge and discharge is sure different that anything else that I have seen.

Lidmotor
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  #4163  
Old 09-13-2012, 01:41 PM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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Mixing with lead

To all working with the lead cells

Just playing around with mixing other metals with melted lead

Interesting results

I mixed mag filings with melted lead for neg

and copper filing for pos

also I mixed some rock salt throughout the melted lead mix, this gives it a sponge like appearance, once the rock salt is washed out, leaving tiny holes through out the lead plate

It acts like the mag copper cells, with the added benefit of charging capabilities

Best of luck
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:46 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
John Hav,
If you get a big one you will do back flips. Everybody is just goofing around with small devices. but if you start to get into the 24 Amp Hr range things will change. The reason for the food grade Alum is simple anything else and you will start to eat the active material on the plates. Epsom Salts is just good one time.Sodium Sulphate will soften the material on the plates and it soon will fall off. Using detergent and tap water will cause the plates to not take a charge as all the active material is dissolved away, the minerals and the chlorine in tap water is very damaging to the plates. The battery works two ways with Sulphuric Acid as a normal Lead Acid Battery or with Food Grade Alum or Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate.

The salt (Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate) is a very good Ionic compound and works very well for ionic transfer, just a little research will point that out. Again I will point out the two different impedances that take place. The impedance is high under charging so current is less. Under load the impedance is very much lower so current is available, My charts do not lie in the video as I have done this many times. Taking a dry Battery off the shelf is the test, and I did that on video and I'm going to do it again. You can lead people to the water but you can not make them drink. In all my years with batteries this one along with the copper magnesium Cell perform the best for current with shifting impedance. Most are unsuccessful because they use junk batteries, junk batteries do not perform, the old saying Junk in Junk out.

This is not Voodoo it's just the way chemistry works in the cells. If you think the store dry charge battery is hard to do try a 1951 Willard battery that has never been formed, that is on video too.
Hi John, it's just me personally but I always feel I need to start with the least expensive resources I have and then work up. I'm learning already with the small cell. As a matter of fact I have some tests that might surprise everyone when I finally get my head wrapped around what I'm seeing. I know you mentioned this is new to everyone yet and we all have to report our experiences. I think the mixture in my little cell is off because of the way I dissolved the alum. Instead of a mix that was completely dissolved or gelled crystals from just the right amount of water, I ended up with a saturated solution with a gelatinous precipitate. When I filled the battery I was getting as much of the precipitate as saturated water. So I think I have mostly a battery with aluminum hydroxide Al(OH)3 around the plates. I wonder if this could be true and why I'm experiencing a slightly higher voltage. I've only had a few hours for experimenting then had to leave town but I'll be back later today to experiment more. I have used a stator motor with a feedback to the battery as a load. Ha, some very unique results. Will report later.
Still can't get the vision of the guts being torn out of the Willard battery out of my mind.
John Hav
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:09 PM
mikrovolt mikrovolt is offline
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it is encouraging to see different ideas. compare and contrast
the entholpy idea brings a few ideas to mind.
I had some half baked ideas about ordering field structure
The polyacrylate has an absorbing and expanding nature
that interacts outside a closed system like an induction field. Unlike a magnetic field the water gets stretched possibly forming a negative resistance.
The tendency of a permanent magnet to align itself to an induced field can
be visualized but alignment of the fields of crystal cells and how they are positioned what may be happening outside the cells may have some unanswered questions.
I recall a video on a phenomena where distance made a difference and
might give some clue to the ordering outside reflects something different going on inside this type of cell or how it might order as an open system.
strange effects with powercells - YouTube
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:03 PM
DadHav DadHav is offline
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Graphing Softare.

Hello John, All. I know small cells aren't as exciting a big ones but I have to say I'm impressed with the small conversion and it takes a lot to impress me. First let me ask before I have everyone sleeping again: Does anyone have recommendations for graphing software? I have Eagle Tree but it's not good for testing smaller currents. I was ready for some video but I wanted to do more than light up light bulbs. Listen though. I must have done something wrong because I'm getting to much voltage. I know: There must have still been acid in the battery. I can't believe that's what it is. The battery is only 1.3 ah and was a sealed lead acid. It doesn't use much more that 1-2 ounces of electrolyte. I put a tube in each cell and attached it to the faucet and ran water in for an hour on each cell. I then switched to Baking Soda and water and used a big 2 ounce syringe to force about a quart of water into the cells while rinsing. I then left the cells over night with the baking soda. Then I pressure rinsed about another gallon of distilled watter through the cells. I did not reverse charge the battery. Maybe I should have but the battery charges to 16.5 volts then rests to about 12.4. After running some loads for an hour or so the resting voltage is more like 12.2 I have charged this battery over night three times now at 50-100 ma and ran tests the entire next day with current draws as high as 250 ma. At 250 ma the battery will stabilize at about 11.8 volts and hold there for a nice slow discharge rate. I never had this current density when the battery was new. Not to mention the battery was completely useless before the conversion. Know I wish I wouldn't have thrown so many hobby batteries away in the last few years. Any thought on the battery or software would be appreciated.
Oh. I used McCormick's alum mixed at a consistency that left a gelatinous precipitate on the bottom. I have more of the thick precipitate in the battery than the diluted concentrate.
John Hav.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:32 AM
Les_K Les_K is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DadHav View Post
Hello John, All. I know small cells aren't as exciting a big ones but I have to say I'm impressed with the small conversion and it takes a lot to impress me. First let me ask before I have everyone sleeping again: Does anyone have recommendations for graphing software? I have Eagle Tree but it's not good for testing smaller currents. I was ready for some video but I wanted to do more than light up light bulbs. Listen though. I must have done something wrong because I'm getting to much voltage. I know: There must have still been acid in the battery. I can't believe that's what it is. The battery is only 1.3 ah and was a sealed lead acid. It doesn't use much more that 1-2 ounces of electrolyte. I put a tube in each cell and attached it to the faucet and ran water in for an hour on each cell. I then switched to Baking Soda and water and used a big 2 ounce syringe to force about a quart of water into the cells while rinsing. I then left the cells over night with the baking soda. Then I pressure rinsed about another gallon of distilled watter through the cells. I did not reverse charge the battery. Maybe I should have but the battery charges to 16.5 volts then rests to about 12.4. After running some loads for an hour or so the resting voltage is more like 12.2 I have charged this battery over night three times now at 50-100 ma and ran tests the entire next day with current draws as high as 250 ma. At 250 ma the battery will stabilize at about 11.8 volts and hold there for a nice slow discharge rate. I never had this current density when the battery was new. Not to mention the battery was completely useless before the conversion. Know I wish I wouldn't have thrown so many hobby batteries away in the last few years. Any thought on the battery or software would be appreciated.
Oh. I used McCormick's alum mixed at a consistency that left a gelatinous precipitate on the bottom. I have more of the thick precipitate in the battery than the diluted concentrate.
John Hav.
Hi DadHav,
This makes me wonder what might be in your tap water. Perhaps even what might have been absorbed into the lead. I have noticed in my conversions that the ones that I had not cleaned as well (little to anxious on the first one...) do have a higher resting voltage.

Les
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:03 AM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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@DadHav - Great cliffhanger there waiting for the results. Nothing of a bad thing to get results like those

@All - I found this MIT lecture: Lec 26 | MIT 3.091SC Introduction to Solid State Chemistry, Fall 2010 - YouTube
While watching, at about the 10 minute marker, things began to get very interesting regarding our experiments. In the few minutes that followed, i'd learned a lot about proton transfer and receptors and....NaCl
So, dashing to the kitchen, I dismembered the sugar/alum 2 lead plate cell (which was ok, but obviously sugar wasn't the missing ingredient) and followed John's/Chuck's video about the paste formation. I used Morton's Salt Subsitute and, it did indeed gel up when mixed with the alum ! The lead plates were coated, then the alum/distilled water mix soaked into a couple of cotton balls for the seperators. No idea if I do have the right mix yet, but after 5 minutes of 3.5V charge at 1A, it collapsed back to about 0.6V and yet had 170mA apparently available ! It's charging up properly now, so i'll know more later.

In a way I hope it isn't correct, because you do realise what the abbreviation for Alum Salt Subsitute would be ?
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:47 AM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider2732 View Post
@DadHav - Great cliffhanger there waiting for the results. Nothing of a bad thing to get results like those

@All - I found this MIT lecture: Lec 26 | MIT 3.091SC Introduction to Solid State Chemistry, Fall 2010 - YouTube
While watching, at about the 10 minute marker, things began to get very interesting regarding our experiments. In the few minutes that followed, i'd learned a lot about proton transfer and receptors and....NaCl
So, dashing to the kitchen, I dismembered the sugar/alum 2 lead plate cell (which was ok, but obviously sugar wasn't the missing ingredient) and followed John's/Chuck's video about the paste formation. I used Morton's Salt Subsitute and, it did indeed gel up when mixed with the alum ! The lead plates were coated, then the alum/distilled water mix soaked into a couple of cotton balls for the seperators. No idea if I do have the right mix yet, but after 5 minutes of 3.5V charge at 1A, it collapsed back to about 0.6V and yet had 170mA apparently available ! It's charging up properly now, so i'll know more later.

In a way I hope it isn't correct, because you do realise what the abbreviation for Alum Salt Subsitute would be ?
Slider,

Very nice find, we can ass-ume it is the right mix, Ha!

Thanks
Best of luck
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:48 AM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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Well, it may be back assward yet
After a couple of hours I stopped charging it and it simply sat there at 1.90V. Normally they drop quite a bit and settle out, but now it's at 1.84V and that's great ! No idea on anything else yet.

Photobucket seems to have problems for uploads, but hopefully the pic of the mixture will show below. It's not little bits in the container, though it looks like it, both ingredients were in solution and then gelled up on mixing:

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