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  #3451  
Old 04-03-2012, 02:24 PM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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Does any body know where to buy


"Gallium orthophosphate" ?
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  #3452  
Old 04-03-2012, 02:54 PM
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Here is a picture of my newest cells. The bigger one on the right side is a semiconductor cooper/Al treated cell, with a plug on top to add water. If I plug the cell up, it will still seep the hydrogen gas as well as salt water around the edges of the cells. So, quite a bit of pressure is created by this gas that needs to vent, and also needs to be neutralized by a de-polarizer.
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  #3453  
Old 04-03-2012, 10:48 PM
griplets griplets is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allwest View Post
Does any body know where to buy


"Gallium orthophosphate" ?
Allwest,

GaPO4 was developed by 2 organisations in Austria but neither of them sell it as far as I am aware. See:
CORDIS: Technology Marketplace
*Europa : CORDIS : Search : Simple search : Projects

These are the guys that manufacture it:
PIEZOCRYST: Advanced Sensorics GmbH

Alex.
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  #3454  
Old 04-03-2012, 11:15 PM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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Waiting game

Hi all, I just finished cooking my new cells with the depolarizer (mn2o3) and the heated pyrite (fe2o3). Now and so on it will be a waiting game to see how long the led will light without water and without destroying the magnesium. Hope to see some progress over here....
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  #3455  
Old 04-04-2012, 01:59 AM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griplets View Post
Allwest,

GaPO4 was developed by 2 organisations in Austria but neither of them sell it as far as I am aware. See:
CORDIS: Technology Marketplace
*Europa : CORDIS : Search : Simple search : Projects

These are the guys that manufacture it:
PIEZOCRYST: Advanced Sensorics GmbH

Alex.
Thanks, so much for your response
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  #3456  
Old 04-04-2012, 02:03 AM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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Hi All,

I am not sure who all have tested or tried cry cells?

I know Ibpointless has made some

What can we expect from dry cells in the way of power

I have some that still get great volt 1.5, but the amps are way down 5Ma

Can some one tell us what to expect?

Thanks
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  #3457  
Old 04-04-2012, 02:19 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allwest View Post
Hi All,

I am not sure who all have tested or tried cry cells?

I know Ibpointless has made some

What can we expect from dry cells in the way of power

I have some that still get great volt 1.5, but the amps are way down 5Ma

Can some one tell us what to expect?

Thanks

Have you tried putting some cells in the freezer over night?
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  #3458  
Old 04-04-2012, 02:32 AM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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Hi IB

No, have not tried this one, although my shop seems like a freezer

I do notice when my dry cells outside temp goes up then the amps go up

What can I expect to see?

IB, the one cell you took apart to look at the mag decay-or no decay

What kind of power where you getting?

thanks
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  #3459  
Old 04-04-2012, 04:23 AM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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The weird things that make power cells

The Allwest Power Cell # 4

http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edi...id=u8Iy1BDSsFo
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  #3460  
Old 04-04-2012, 11:13 AM
ibpointless2 ibpointless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allwest View Post
Hi IB

No, have not tried this one, although my shop seems like a freezer

I do notice when my dry cells outside temp goes up then the amps go up

What can I expect to see?

IB, the one cell you took apart to look at the mag decay-or no decay

What kind of power where you getting?

thanks

The day I took it apart i was getting 1.45 volts @ 100uA.

The video you posted has a bad link, I think this is the one you wanted to post? Allwest power cell # 4 - YouTube

The video was very interesting, i like how you add the water but is that what i think it is that separates the metals?
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  #3461  
Old 04-04-2012, 11:41 PM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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Check out the Allwest "HOT!" new cell

Allwest Power Cell # 5 - YouTube
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  #3462  
Old 04-05-2012, 01:33 AM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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Forget the mn2o3/fe203

I have tested the cells that I've made yesterday and the mn2o3 is destructive. Forget about it!! The new ones today: Oxide treated copper caps, mag bars, 3 spoons rochelle salt, 1 spoon epson salts, 1 spoon sodium silicate, mag filings, silver filings, calcium carbonate filings, iron pyrite, galena, cruched pink tourmaline. Cook on the stove until nothing happends (no sounds from the cells). The cells gives me 1.4/1.5 volts standing and 4/5 ma shorted with a 10 ohms resistor. The amps shorted out drops then rises sharply after. The voltage than bounces back to where it was. I think these are the winners!
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  #3463  
Old 04-05-2012, 01:47 AM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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It's not about the water...

Ibpointless was all right about the water. I'm now sure that water is needed but just to start the chemical process of new materials on the electrodes. After this long process, a new type of converter is created. The iron pyrite and galena are sulfides and these sulfides, with the help of the water and the salts ''creates'' copper sulfides on the copper. The rectifier is then etablished. On the magnesium, magnesium carbonate is formed and protect the magnesium WHEN DRY ONLY. Thats my theory...
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  #3464  
Old 04-05-2012, 01:57 PM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Material Prices?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jehdds View Post
Golly don't mention the words fossil fuel.
Next thing you know there will be a shortage and Hemitite will be $110.00 per ounce!
Jim
This is what happens!
Why Graphite Stocks May Continue To Outperform | Resource Investor
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  #3465  
Old 04-06-2012, 01:51 AM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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Magnesium pentasilicate (2MgO:5SiO2)

John Bedini talked about this a while ago to protect the magnesium from corroding and this coumpound can take a lot of potassium ions to gives us more energy output. The trick is to make it. Thats the hydrate #5!!! Burning magnesium filings will give us the magnesium oxide (2MgO). Then, heating this oxide with sodium silicate to obtain the coumpound. I found somewhere that a new crystal structure evolve with temperature above 750c. I will try that.
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  #3466  
Old 04-06-2012, 02:51 AM
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NickZ NickZ is offline
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CrystalDM:
Thanks for the tips on the hydrate #5 process. I hope it works out as planned. The depolarizer is also an important issue, to help keep the hydrogen from building up and creating higher impedance and lowering the output.
So, what can be done to protect the the metal when using Aluminum, instead? Anyone have any ideas that have been found to work on aluminum?
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  #3467  
Old 04-06-2012, 03:38 AM
jehdds jehdds is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_rads View Post
Ahhh,
I can almost see the modernized De Beers' commercial with lovely hand models wearing exquisite multi-strand carbon fiber tubes, with Pave' inlayed capacitor nanotubes while being powered by the hand models perspiration, (otherwise known as unsolicited thermoregulatory sacrificial electrolyte donation) Tangential topic found here: (Harvesting Energy from Water Flow over Graphene - Nano Letters (ACS Publications) a plasma interlaced ARC reactor because diamonds have become so hoi palloi........
Where is Karl Jenkins when you need him for auditory effect?
Now you know why Carbon Tax has been talked about for so long......
Clever foresight or is it Perfect clarity Hindsight?
After all the private sector is around 100 years behind technology that exists off the record as they say.
Jim
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  #3468  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:07 AM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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jehdds

Ha! I needed a good laugh

thanks!
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  #3469  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:13 AM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickZ View Post
CrystalDM:
Thanks for the tips on the hydrate #5 process. I hope it works out as planned. The depolarizer is also an important issue, to help keep the hydrogen from building up and creating higher impedance and lowering the output.
So, what can be done to protect the the metal when using Aluminum, instead? Anyone have any ideas that have been found to work on aluminum?
I just took apart a cell that had (non-treated)magnesium ribbon wrapped around a copper pipe soaked in Alum, and in a very short time there was nothing left of magnesium

I treated another cell with dielectric grease on the magnesium ribbon and it seems to be holding fine, you may want to try it on the aluminum

Just a thought
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  #3470  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:35 AM
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NickZ NickZ is offline
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Yes, that's a good idea. I've used a conductive grease on my connections, and on the inside of the aluminum capacitor cans that I've used to make the cells with. It did help with the external connection points as well.
I was thinking more along the lines of an aluminum oxide layer treatment.
Glad to hear the the grease helped with the Mg.
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  #3471  
Old 04-06-2012, 10:07 AM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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@ Nickz: Try using clay (Al2O3, 2SiO2, 2H2O). It"s aluminium silicate or you can do your own with alumina and silicate. Maybe it has something to do with the coating that forms on the aluminium to protect it. I think it will bonds with the aluminium, same thing with magnesium and magnesium silicate. Try to dope with some aluminium filings in your mix to enhance the process. John talked alot about the epson salts (heptahydrates) for the ''magical mix'', but it has to do only for the magnesium as the neg. Since you use aluminium instead, try alum! It's potassium aluminium sulfate and it's in a more hydrated version of a sulfate. Just try to play with the basics here. If you use aluminium and copper, try also to stick with coumpounds that fit these elements.
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  #3472  
Old 04-06-2012, 01:55 PM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allwest View Post
I just took apart a cell that had (non-treated)magnesium ribbon wrapped around a copper pipe soaked in Alum, and in a very short time there was nothing left of magnesium

I treated another cell with dielectric grease on the magnesium ribbon and it seems to be holding fine, you may want to try it on the aluminum

Just a thought
Did you observe or note a difference in the output ability between the two cells?

The reason I ask is this information I found while working on the Aluminum/Air battery.
The cell current will decrease as the metals become coated with oxides and other byproducts, however the voltage will remain constant as this is affected primariily by the electronegativity of the metals.
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  #3473  
Old 04-06-2012, 03:45 PM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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b_rads

This is the cell I was working on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZqbBwBLQxY

There was two cells in the copper pipe

As you can see one cell had a voltage of about 1.67 and .44amps

The other had 1.50 volts and .22amps

The voltage pretty much stayed the same but the amps dropped off rapidly as the decay and oxidation of the magnesium began

I think if you did a study over time on these types of cells

Cell #1 high rate of decay big power for a short period of time .44Amps

Cell #2 low rate of decay low power for a longer period of time 4Ma

My guess is that they would both equal out to the same power output achieved at different times

The analogy of the
(The rabbit and the turtle) comes to mind,I guess time will tell if the turtle can keep going past the rabbit at the end of the cell life

Just some thoughts

Can any body calculate this, or has anybody done long term studies?
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  #3474  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:02 PM
b_rads b_rads is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allwest View Post
b_rads
I think if you did a study over time on these types of cells

Cell #1 high rate of decay big power for a short period of time .44Amps

Cell #2 low rate of decay low power for a longer period of time 4Ma

My guess is that they would both equal out to the same power output achieved at different times

The analogy of the
(The rabbit and the turtle) comes to mind,I guess time will tell if the turtle can keep going past the rabbit at the end of the cell life

Just some thoughts

Can any body calculate this, or has anybody done long term studies?
Excellent observations Allwest. Your rabbit and turtle analogy is spot on. These results are very typical of what I have experienced.
For example: I have 3 zinc/copper water cells connected that have been powering a red LED for over 1 1/2 years. The same setup using drain cleaner, oxy cleaners, or bleach have a very short lifespan but will output way more current.

Thank you for sharing these results.

Brad S
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  #3475  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:21 PM
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NickZ NickZ is offline
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Allwest:
The actual readings in your video as shown by the meter is -0.44 amp, (negative), not positive + 0.44. What does it read, with opposite polarity?
There have been several people that show strong cells with higher current levels, only to have that drop to 1/10 or less of what they started at, after a while, when connected to leds. Once connected to a load, strong cells will produce lots of hydrogen gas that will saturate the cells positive pole, bottle-necking the ions, that will then drop the output. Unless,.... you use a proper de-polarizer, but one that doesn't destroy the metals.


B-rads: Yes, If the plan is to have some real useful light output, the stronger the cells become, the shorter is its life span, as this is all based on chemical reactions, that digest the metals. And is why I'm still hoping that the semiconductor type of cells may be the only way around it. As we have been hoping to build cells that can sit in a puddle of salts, and not oxidize. Not too likely.
And, you are also right about the oxides also being INSULATORS.

CrystalDM:
Thanks for your comments.
Aluminum will oxidize on its own very easily, almost instantly when exposed to even just open air, with a clear protective non conductive oxide layer. The thicker that this layer gets the weaker and less conductive the cells become, with higher resistance, as well as higher impedance.


John B: I have been wondering about what the current results and tests are with your 1 amp cell? As I've not heard anything more about it.
I have taken your advice to mix carbon with salt, which is giving me about 60mAs in my Aluminum/activated carbon cells. I'll be trying the MnO2 from D cells in my mix today.
I have not been able to find Epsom, or any other salt here yet, so table salt is still in my mix. 60 mA can light up several leds, all night long very brightly. I then disconnect the cells from the oscillators, during the day, so the cells can recuperate, somewhat, and the hydrogen gas can vent.
NickZ
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Last edited by NickZ; 04-06-2012 at 05:32 PM.
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  #3476  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:46 PM
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Lidmotor Lidmotor is offline
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The Tortoise and the Hare

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allwest View Post
b_rads

This is the cell I was working on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZqbBwBLQxY

There was two cells in the copper pipe

As you can see one cell had a voltage of about 1.67 and .44amps

The other had 1.50 volts and .22amps

The voltage pretty much stayed the same but the amps dropped off rapidly as the decay and oxidation of the magnesium began

I think if you did a study over time on these types of cells

Cell #1 high rate of decay big power for a short period of time .44Amps

Cell #2 low rate of decay low power for a longer period of time 4Ma

My guess is that they would both equal out to the same power output achieved at different times

The analogy of the
(The rabbit and the turtle) comes to mind,I guess time will tell if the turtle can keep going past the rabbit at the end of the cell life

Just some thoughts

Can any body calculate this, or has anybody done long term studies?
@Allwest and b-rads
I agree with your conclusions about how these cells work. You can go fast or go slow. The energy appears to be like gas in car. If you go slow the cell can last longer and you get better mileage. If you have a big gas tank (large pure magnesium anode) and the carburetor (crystalline electrolyte) is a good one, you have a very efficient situation. How hard you step on the gas pedal and draw out the energy makes a difference. These crystal cells seem to have a built in "restrictor plate" like in a stock car racecar that limits the current (horsepower) and thus extends the life span. Take away the restriction to get more power and the Mg gets eaten up fast. It is pretty simple chemistry really-------if these are typical galvanic cells.

You really need a lab to test these crystal cells to tell what is going on at the molecular level.

At this point I have not seen anything that produces USEABLE ENERGY without affecting the anode metal. You can have a static voltage on a cell, with microamp power, where the anode deteriorates extremely slow -----but so what? That doesn't prove anything. Gaining energy from the local environment or the Easter Bunny----I don't think so. If these cells are then it is very little.

The good news is that we have made some really great cells----call them what you want. We also learned alot. In my opinion this has not been a waste of time and I will continue on in the quest. Slow but sure like the turtle.


The Tortoise and the Hare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lidmotor
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Last edited by Lidmotor; 04-06-2012 at 09:04 PM.
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  #3477  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:47 PM
Allwest Allwest is offline
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"Allwest:
The actual readings in your video as shown by the meter is -0.44 amp, (negative), not positive + 0.44. What does it read, with opposite polarity?
There have been several people that show strong cells with higher current levels, only to have that drop to 1/10 or less of what they started at, after a while, when connected to leds. Once connected to a load, strong cells will produce lots of hydrogen gas that will saturate the cells positive pole, bottle-necking the ions, that will then drop the output. Unless,.... you use a proper de-polarizer, but one that doesn't destroy the metals."

NickZ,

I just had the wrong probes, it would read the same .44Amp positive, it started out at .54amps , the wet Alum eats Magnesium BIG TIME!

Did you see the chili powder power cell?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_kBmH-_OuA

This one only uses water and the magnesium is treated with dielectric grease, 1.45 volts with 100MA, it has dropped to 75MA and holding,(so far) same volts with no sign of decay on the mag
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  #3478  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:37 PM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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Hydrated magnesium silicate take 2

I have found a really easy way to get this ''hydrate'' that John talked about. You can actually grow a garden of precipitate magnesium silicate. All you need is a solution of 40% sodium silicate mixed with distilled water and epson salt. @ All: Try this!! The epson salts will dissolve with ''serpentine like'' shapes in the solution! That's the magnesium silicate. The trick is to collect this ''garden'' and allow these new crystals to dry. Filtering with water is necessary to obtain a good quality cristal. It's like the talc (soapstone) mineral but you don't want the hydroxide in it. I think I finally got it!!
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  #3479  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:48 PM
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Lidmotor Lidmotor is offline
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Hydrate

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalDipoleMatrix View Post
I have found a really easy way to get this ''hydrate'' that John talked about. You can actually grow a garden of precipitate magnesium silicate. All you need is a solution of 40% sodium silicate mixed with distilled water and epson salt. @ All: Try this!! The epson salts will dissolve with ''serpentine like'' shapes in the solution! That's the magnesium silicate. The trick is to collect this ''garden'' and allow these new crystals to dry. Filtering with water is necessary to obtain a good quality cristal. It's like the talc (soapstone) mineral but you don't want the hydroxide in it. I think I finally got it!!
I think that this is the Hydrate that John B. is using now. I had to dig back in the thread to find the link to it. He just calls it Hydrate #9 which refers to the number of water molecules in there.

Sodium meta-Silicate, Nonahydrate, Crystal, Reagent * 13517-24-3

Kind of expensive. I think that Jim (Jehdds) has some.

Lidmotor
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  #3480  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:01 PM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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hydrate

@Lidmotor, It was hydrate #5 but I think it's not that critical to the crystal mix because you will mix the 2 pinches of the magnesium silicate with the epson salt and it's an heptahydrate (7 molecules of h2O). I just don't know why he was not able to tell the right ''secret'' ingredient. But I think I found it now.
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