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  #1681 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2012, 05:04 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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Potential difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
BrentA929,
Yes I see you over at the Earth Lights all the time. Look I will open the box and show you what is in it. This is an easy one for this group as they are more advanced. I do not run that big motor much as it barley fits in my shop and the Chinese keep asking to buy it, but it's like a tooth of which I knocked out.
If you look at these DC solid state switches you will find that you can hook them up to self trigger in reverse breakdown. That is all it is, you guys should be able to figure that one out, that is why you only see two wires coming out of the box. The capacitor charges from the Bedini/Cole switch and then the fet breaks down. But if you really think about it a sidac hooked up to this solid state relay will also work. Just put your thinking caps on about what I just said.
John
Well I don't have the answer but I bet it has something to do with the difference in potential between the capacitor and the charge battery.


John K.
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  #1682 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2012, 01:40 PM
BrentA929 BrentA929 is offline
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Big Bedini Motor

Hey John,

I am still hanging around and do frequent the Earth Light thread. Not something that I am really into, but probably more for the shear purpose to read what you have to share. You are wealth of knowledge and are an inspiration to many people. My wife calls it a "man crush." I don't disagree with her, I would be a fool to. I love my wife very much!

Now with all the awkwardness out of the way...

I feel like I may have bitten off more than I can chew with my BFW build. There seems to be so many pieces to the puzzle that I just can't see and more important not sure if I would even know it if I did see it! I am fascinated by this technology, but it seems that so very few people actually know what it is or even know what they are looking for. That's me! Not even sure what I am looking for. I just know that there is something magical, maybe even mystical that draws me to this stuff. Maybe it is just the challenge of trying to figure out this riddle. I read as much as I can on the groups, attend the conferences and more importantly build as much as I can. I continue to learn and appreciate all that you do for this industry!!!


None of us would be here if it wasn't for you!!!

Thanks for all you do and share,

Brent


P.S. Hell yeah! I think I speak for everyone when I say that we would love for you to open the box and show us what is inside!!! Hooah!


Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
BrentA929,
Yes I see you over at the Earth Lights all the time. Look I will open the box and show you what is in it. This is an easy one for this group as they are more advanced. I do not run that big motor much as it barley fits in my shop and the Chinese keep asking to buy it, but it's like a tooth of which I knocked out.
If you look at these DC solid state switches you will find that you can hook them up to self trigger in reverse breakdown. That is all it is, you guys should be able to figure that one out, that is why you only see two wires coming out of the box. The capacitor charges from the Bedini/Cole switch and then the fet breaks down. But if you really think about it a sidac hooked up to this solid state relay will also work. Just put your thinking caps on about what I just said.
John
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  #1683 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2012, 10:32 PM
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minoly minoly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
BrentA929,
Yes I see you over at the Earth Lights all the time. Look I will open the box and show you what is in it. This is an easy one for this group as they are more advanced. I do not run that big motor much as it barley fits in my shop and the Chinese keep asking to buy it, but it's like a tooth of which I knocked out.
If you look at these DC solid state switches you will find that you can hook them up to self trigger in reverse breakdown. That is all it is, you guys should be able to figure that one out, that is why you only see two wires coming out of the box. The capacitor charges from the Bedini/Cole switch and then the fet breaks down. But if you really think about it a sidac hooked up to this solid state relay will also work. Just put your thinking caps on about what I just said.
John
John,
This is how I've been doing it for a while now.
although I like to use the MJL w/o the relay for my generator coil.

Patrick

Last edited by minoly : 02-23-2012 at 04:42 AM.
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  #1684 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 12:33 AM
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The BOX

I will try to remind John later about the box and take a picture or ? and post it or john will post it.
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  #1685 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 12:34 AM
Ron Chase Ron Chase is offline
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Inside the "Box"

Brent, I agree a peek inside the box would be worth a thousand words!

Thanks JB!

Patrick is that a hybrid SSR?

Ron
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:16 AM
Ecancanvas Ecancanvas is offline
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Whats up with our wifes and John B

Brent,

I have the same kind of thing with my wife and John. She doesn’t pay any attention to most the things I watch, read or build. But I put something of Johns on and she will come over and watch with me. She sz that he is a very intelligent man, you can tell by his sexy voice and dark eyes.

WHATS UP??? I guess john is some kind of Chick magnet. A wild and crazy guy.

All in fun. Thanks john for all you do

ED
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  #1687 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:16 AM
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What is in the box

@ All,
You are going to be surprised when Chuck and I open that box as I told you all it is just an opto fet switch that just works by the breakdown of the fet. Easy one to do can be done with a sidac to fire the led in the opto fet switch. But I guess I must open the box for you all to believe me. Chuck and I will do it tomorrow for you all. You guys are smart here and should understand what I'm saying. The capacitor just charges to about 48 volts and the fet goes into negative breakdown and the energy is delivered to the secondary batteries as the coils fire. Come on guys the Sidac does this easy with an opto fet dc switch. no real power required.
John B
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  #1688 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 04:03 AM
BrentA929 BrentA929 is offline
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Can't wait

John B,

I'll be eager to see what you show us tomorrow!

48V? You didn't just say that!?! All this time I thought we were charging to double the battery voltage, which would be 72V. Its no wonder my hair is going grey...


Thanks, Brent


@Ed - BTW and I'm not sure why I am clarifying this, but my wife thinks I have the "man crush." Energy this, energy that and John Bedini this, John Bedini that. Sometimes its all she hears about. Oh well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
@ All,
You are going to be surprised when Chuck and I open that box as I told you all it is just an opto fet switch that just works by the breakdown of the fet. Easy one to do can be done with a sidac to fire the led in the opto fet switch. But I guess I must open the box for you all to believe me. Chuck and I will do it tomorrow for you all. You guys are smart here and should understand what I'm saying. The capacitor just charges to about 48 volts and the fet goes into negative breakdown and the energy is delivered to the secondary batteries as the coils fire. Come on guys the Sidac does this easy with an opto fet dc switch. no real power required.
John B
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  #1689 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 04:33 AM
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minoly minoly is offline
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Quote:
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John,
This is how I've been doing it for a while now.
although I like to use the MJL w/o the relay for my generator coil.

Patrick
Oops, I jumped the gun on my drawing. the way I've been doing it is w/ a mechanical relay as drawn. it fires the relay when the transistor breaks down, I have the second mjl EC backwards in the drawing.

the way I would like to do it is w/ a solid state relay minus the second mjl.

when I use the mechanical relay w/o the second mjl, the relay eventually freezes :-)

Patrick
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  #1690 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 04:41 AM
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minoly minoly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minoly View Post
Oops, I jumped the gun on my drawing. the way I've been doing it is w/ a mechanical relay as drawn. it fires the relay when the transistor breaks down, I have the second mjl EC backwards in the drawing.

the way I would like to do it is w/ a solid state relay minus the second mjl.

when I use the mechanical relay w/o the second mjl, the relay eventually freezes :-)

Patrick
here is the corrected drawing, that is a mechanical relay.
also, on the lead in MJL I can add more in series to increase the target voltage.
Patrick
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  #1691 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 06:17 AM
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John_Bedini John_Bedini is offline
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I dont think so

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentA929 View Post
John B,

I'll be eager to see what you show us tomorrow!

48V? You didn't just say that!?! All this time I thought we were charging to double the battery voltage, which would be 72V. Its no wonder my hair is going grey...


Thanks, Brent


@Ed - BTW and I'm not sure why I am clarifying this, but my wife thinks I have the "man crush." Energy this, energy that and John Bedini this, John Bedini that. Sometimes its all she hears about. Oh well...
Brent,
Remember what I said about the capacitor, it's rated at 65 volts 75 volts max serge so you can not wait for it to reach that voltage as the switch breaks down before that, But look in the box. The high voltage destroys that cap 72 volts would be double and that is too much for the switch at that current of 5.2 amps which is 374.4 watts. The machine was only using 1.5 amps at 36 volts or 54 watts Did you not watch the meters at the conference. When the meters were pegged after running the current was down on the secondary batteries to 3.3 amps at 48 volts or 158.4 watts float. and that makes the batteries standing at 16 volts

But your correct about doubling the voltage for a battery. So why would you have gray hair over this as that is where the machine was running. I ran this machine two times and it was at the same power level both times. This is what I have in my notes on this machine. I would have liked to have double the voltage as I have always said, not with that switch. You only need to be two to three volts over the battery to charge them but you really want to push them to 15.5 to 16 volts max or the power is just being wasted in heat in the battery. Even Ricks SG 30 coiler was only pushing the batteries to 16 volts. John K even turned it down to not over boil the batteries.
But just look in the box and you will see, go get your hair dyed your wife will love you as a new man.
Damn I should have opened the box for John K when you were here.

John

Last edited by John_Bedini : 02-23-2012 at 06:22 AM. Reason: Adding information
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  #1692 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 05:08 PM
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John_Bedini John_Bedini is offline
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The Box

Brent,
Ok here is what is in the box just as I told you.
http://www.johnbedini.net/john34/thebox.wmv

Anything else here?. As I said your machine should work with a number of variations. You just need to stop looking at things one way as if this thing came out of some text book. Back to my Crystal Batteries Now
John
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  #1693 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 08:02 PM
Ron Chase Ron Chase is offline
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FET Switching

Thank you John for giving us a look inside the box. We've all been very curious! Using the opto-coupled SSR package makes for very covenient mounting inside the box. Saves having to heatsink and mount a seperate FET plus you already have screw terminals for connecting to the cap and meter.

As usual an elegant design!

Thanks again,

Ron
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  #1694 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 09:11 PM
John_K John_K is offline
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The Box

Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Brent,
Ok here is what is in the box just as I told you.
http://www.johnbedini.net/john34/thebox.wmv

Anything else here?. As I said your machine should work with a number of variations. You just need to stop looking at things one way as if this thing came out of some text book. Back to my Crystal Batteries Now
John
Hey John,

Could you please post the part number of the SSR? The video didn't quite focus on it. I want to go look at what the breakdown voltage is. I'm betting it will be about 12v.

I tried a different way of doing this with an opto (H11D1) and a FET last night, but not in breakdown mode as the BVdss was too high on the FET. I could get it to switch on no problem at about 12v over the battery voltage but had problems getting it to switch off. But you had me thinking.

Also looked at SIDACs but most of the ones I found had a voltage range of say, 100v - 125v. Couldn't find one in the range we are switching.


John K.

P.S. You were right again with the FETs on the SSG. Great if you want torque with recovery, but the MJLs gave better charging but less torque. Will give you a call about it.
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  #1695 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2012, 10:24 PM
Ron Chase Ron Chase is offline
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Ssr #

John K,

It looks like a Douglas Randall Model K08A or K12A. Its hard to tell. The K08A is rated 8A and 32VDC on the load side and the K12A at 12A. Each is described as a bipolar transistor switch. Not much more information available.

Ron
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  #1696 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2012, 03:21 AM
BrentA929 BrentA929 is offline
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Box

John B,

Very NICE!!!

Just so you know, I am not here questioning the truth of what you say about your lifes work, I am merely trying to better my understanding. I get the impression that you think we don't belive you. It is that you are light years ahead of most of us. Doing my best to try and keep up!


Many thanks, Brent



Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Brent,
Ok here is what is in the box just as I told you.
http://www.johnbedini.net/john34/thebox.wmv

Anything else here?. As I said your machine should work with a number of variations. You just need to stop looking at things one way as if this thing came out of some text book. Back to my Crystal Batteries Now
John
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:34 AM
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Rl2003 Rl2003 is offline
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Double pulse

Thanks John,

I know this is not about "whats in the box", but I started the mini wheel up the
other day and since I made a few small adjustments. I picked up this scope shot
while I was slowing down the wheel with my finger, and am not sure as to what
is happening. Looks like two, pulses. I did put slightly large neo's behind the
ceramic's than the ones I had in there.
Also there is no sound.. don't know what is going on. But if any one can shed
some light on this, thanks.
That's a 63V 22000uf cap and the input was at 30 v and .23 amps.
You can see how fast the cap is dumping.
Mark P.

Here is the video.
Double pulse?? - YouTube
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  #1698 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2012, 08:57 AM
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ssr

im still learning this format

http://www.hongfa.com/pro/pdf/HFS33_en.pdf
two pics
Douglas Randall Solid State Relay Model D12A 3-32 vdc input 120-v 12 amp cont. | eBay
so give me some time to learn all the tricks
guy b
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File Type: jpg $(KGrHqZ,!pEE63YiDEB-BOzYFc8krQ~~60_57.jpg (161.5 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg 6e86_12.jpg (18.3 KB, 25 views)

Last edited by aguy : 02-24-2012 at 09:10 AM.
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  #1699 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2012, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Brent,
I'm talking about making a solid state relay for the switching.
The Fet would get around the problems with the SCR.Mathew Jones shows the circuit a few pages back, but that solid state relay is costly so we could make that with the opto and the regulator for the gate voltage and the resistor to pull the gate off. The way around his circuit for timing is a SIDAC at 40 to 60 volts to fire the opto when the capacitor reaches the correct voltage. that is the switch I'm working on. NTE makes that part NTE6415. The higher the voltage the better, then the battery will charge fast that is what we want. Capacitor dump circuits must be double in voltage or very close to it.

John B
John,
So when you use the term costly, did you mean energy-wise or $$-wise? At the time I assumed $$'s
Is this why you pursued the comparator?



Thanks,
Patrick
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:11 PM
John_K John_K is offline
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It's all in the t...t..t.timing

I did an experiment to show the timing of the coil discharge pulse by using John's method of an LED over the coil and reflective marlings on the rotor magnets.

What I found was that when I tuned the 10 coiler so that the coil discharged exactly half way in between the rotor magnets, the wheel sped up. But if the coil discharge pulse was either side of the half way mark the wheel would slow down.

I believe the reason why the rotor speeds up is because when the coil discharges and the poles flip, the scalar South is being repelled by the normal South on the top of the coil. This also "sucks in" the next oncoming North magnet.

This is also why John has such a long duty cycle (50% IIRC) on the Ferris Wheel. We want to take advantage of the scalar South.

Ring the bell twice!


John K.
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  #1701 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2012, 01:59 PM
John_K John_K is offline
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Video

Here's a video: Bedini Monopole SSG Timing - YouTube


John K.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:08 PM
BrentA929 BrentA929 is offline
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Why 48V?

John B,

Because there was so much confusion on this topic (capacitor discharge voltage) I would like to ask a question...

Why did you choose discharging the capacitor at 48V vs. 72V? Is it because you were trying to achieve a certain frequency? Or is there more to it?

I get that a battery is fully charged at the 15.5 to 16V range. Peter L. did a great job in describing that at the last conference.


Thanks, Brent


Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Brent,
Remember what I said about the capacitor, it's rated at 65 volts 75 volts max serge so you can not wait for it to reach that voltage as the switch breaks down before that, But look in the box. The high voltage destroys that cap 72 volts would be double and that is too much for the switch at that current of 5.2 amps which is 374.4 watts. The machine was only using 1.5 amps at 36 volts or 54 watts Did you not watch the meters at the conference. When the meters were pegged after running the current was down on the secondary batteries to 3.3 amps at 48 volts or 158.4 watts float. and that makes the batteries standing at 16 volts

But your correct about doubling the voltage for a battery. So why would you have gray hair over this as that is where the machine was running. I ran this machine two times and it was at the same power level both times. This is what I have in my notes on this machine. I would have liked to have double the voltage as I have always said, not with that switch. You only need to be two to three volts over the battery to charge them but you really want to push them to 15.5 to 16 volts max or the power is just being wasted in heat in the battery. Even Ricks SG 30 coiler was only pushing the batteries to 16 volts. John K even turned it down to not over boil the batteries.
But just look in the box and you will see, go get your hair dyed your wife will love you as a new man.
Damn I should have opened the box for John K when you were here.

John
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  #1703 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2012, 07:03 PM
Ron Chase Ron Chase is offline
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48V Cap Dump

Brent,

The 48V level of the cap seems to be where the opto coupler FET in the box breaksdown and dumps the negative spike to the battery. I don't think the 48V was picked as much as thats what it turned to be.

Ron
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:27 PM
Ron Chase Ron Chase is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_K View Post
Here's a video: Bedini Monopole SSG Timing - YouTube


John K.
John K,

Great video, thanks for sharing it. Have you had a chance to correlate the timing shown to charging rate?

Ron
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Chase View Post
Brent,

The 48V level of the cap seems to be where the opto coupler FET in the box breaksdown and dumps the negative spike to the battery. I don't think the 48V was picked as much as thats what it turned to be.

Ron
we can only speculate at this point. my 2 cents... John B has many ways of making that cap dump, when and where ever he chooses depending on the circumstances and desired outcome. I think he chose that device based on his requirements at the time.

That being said, he spent another few more months before settling on the comparator, why? He's always tweaking, making things work better. So there are many other ways to make it work. Look what he ended up having to do to make the smaller builds work. We're here to learn rather than follow a recipe right?

I've thought long and hard on this, otherwise, since it is such a simple device why not show it from the get-go.
sincerely,
Patrick
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  #1706 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2012, 07:55 PM
BrentA929 BrentA929 is offline
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48V dump

Ron,

You may be right, but I have a hard time believing that JB didn't pick 48V for some specific reason. There was some thought behind it! Just curious what it is...


Best Regards, Brent


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Chase View Post
Brent,

The 48V level of the cap seems to be where the opto coupler FET in the box breaksdown and dumps the negative spike to the battery. I don't think the 48V was picked as much as thats what it turned to be.

Ron
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  #1707 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2012, 11:37 PM
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John_Bedini John_Bedini is offline
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@ All

@ All,
Thanks John K for posting that information as that is very important in the operation of the machine.
Not only the SG but the Ferris Wheel. The Ferris Wheel is more of a motor then the SG. The reason why is because of the switching.
@ Minoly,
The machine was Costly to build as it was a pro-type. The Comparator I always had and I did not want to use it, as the DC fet switch did what I wanted it to do.

@ Brent,
I used that DC switch because it was in the range to charge the batteries without over charging.
You guys are going to have to pick a DC switch that works with your batteries, because these DC switches do not all work the same. That is why I said a sidac, Low voltage should be chosen to fire the switch. If you watched the output meter you could see it discharging after each pulse as John K has point out to you. When I showed the wheel starting on it's own and where it stopped was the point the DC switch discharges. Then the wheel goes in the clockwise direction for running. In Other Words the wheel starts in reverse then slams agents the magnetic field and stops then it goes forward. After that every time a magnet passes the pole you get a discharge to the secondary batteries.
The important thing is the timing between the poles the motor part must be completely off , not one bit of leakage on that switch.
John B
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  #1708 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:15 AM
John_K John_K is offline
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@ All Too

@Brent,
The reason for 48v? John already said that is what 3 x 16v is. He also said it prevents the batteries from over-charging. It is a potential switch that will not work once the batteries are fully charged. No point running the machine after that as it is just wasting the energy.

@Ron,
The batteries are charging at the rate they want to charge without current. I don't want to push them with current. Note that the electrolyte tempearture is lower in the charge battery than the primary battery - cold charging. With the SG circuit the RPM will regulate according to the impedance of the charge battery - self regulating impedance matching machine like John has always said.

@Patrick,
Yes, the comparator would work, but would be harder to do with one wire as the 741 requires a stable reference voltage so you need voltage regulators and a bunch of components to make it work. And why do all that when John has now shown you can do it with one device?

@All,
The machine is basically a very efficient motor (54W to turn a 13' wheel!) that also recovers all of the energy that is normally wasted into another battery. The modified Bedini/Cole circuit gives a lot of torque for not much energy because there is no drag. The hub section also keeps the primary charged. It needs to be looked at very simply, there are no physics laws being broken here and no voodoo to look for.

Once you have the circuits built properly you just adjust the timing like you would a car. The timing is very important as John says. Once you have that, you just walk away and figure out what you're going to do with the all the energy - electrical and mechanical.


John K.
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  #1709 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:30 AM
Ron Chase Ron Chase is offline
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Great Week

John K,

Great summation! Its been an excellant week on this thread. Have a great weekend and thanks for the explanations.

Ron
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  #1710 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:58 AM
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minoly minoly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_K View Post
@Brent,


@Patrick,
Yes, the comparator would work, but would be harder to do with one wire as the 741 requires a stable reference voltage so you need voltage regulators and a bunch of components to make it work. And why do all that when John has now shown you can do it with one device?




John K.
My bad, I thought John B. is advocating not to use the relay, but to use the comparator or some other method that is not as costly?

My solution works nicely, the only draw back is the 2nd tranny heats up something fierce, maybe put a big heat sink on it and warm the house while I'm at it LOL.
so is it a k08a relay?

Thanks,
Patrick
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