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John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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  #1  
Old 10-28-2009, 10:10 PM
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Zooming in on Bedini's Radiant Spike

I think we are all familiar with the principle that if you cut off the current to an inductor very sharply it will generate what is referred to as the radiant or transient spike. Bedini has claimed that when this spike hits the battery, it will cause the battery to resonate at its ionic frequency which "shakes" the extra energy we require from the vacuum.

I haven't seen John's scope shots so I can not say 100% if this is exactly what he is talking about, but it appears to be what he describes.

The following scope shots are taken from my Fat Boy Oscillator. Full details of Fat Boy are on my website.

The Underground Lab : Blog

Unfortunately my scope is a fossil and I don't trust it to make accurate measurements, though I am confidant the waveform is displayed correctly. If someone would like to send me a decent scope for christmas I can make some accurate measurements for you

Scope shot one - Set so that the spikes are fully visible.



Scope shot two - Changed volts per division so the majority of the spike, and the drop in voltage afterwards, is visible


Scope shot three - Stretched time per division so that the a single pulse to the battery take up the entire display.


Scope shot four - Stretched time so that only the oscillations after the spike is displayed.


Scope shot five - reduced voltage per division so that the entire spike and the following oscillations are visible.


The Fat Boy Oscillator produces the best quality waveform out of everything I have ever built so what you see on your scope may be a bit different. On most of my oscillators there are normally less than half a dozen oscillations before it levels out. If using multiple coils, then the waveform may appear distorted because of slight differences in the coils. I once accidentally used a 1N4007 diode on a multicoiler that used UF4007 diodes on all the other coils. Because the 1N4007 has a slower switching speed compared to the UF4007, two spikes hit the battery at different times and really messed up the wave! I believe this is one of the reasons for using multiple diodes in parallel on each winding so that the slight differences in switching speeds between the diodes (even if they are the same model) become less of a problem as they are more likely to be matched.
I think we are all familiar with the principle that if you cut off the current to an inductor very sharply it will generate what is referred to as the radiant or transient spike. Bedini has claimed that when this spike hits the battery, it will cause the battery to resonate at its ionic frequency which "shakes" the extra energy we require from the vacuum.
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2009, 12:43 AM
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Nice. I wish I had an underground lab ;-) Thanks for that.
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
The following scope shots are taken from my Fat Boy Oscillator. Full details of Fat Boy are on my website.
Is this your circuit?


I see any circuit by Bedini on starters guide use diode between emitor and base.
http://freenrg.info/Bedini/SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-Two.pdf

Your circuit do not have such diode. I think this is important in regard of wave oscillation.
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Old 10-29-2009, 03:50 AM
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What would happen if you slammed the door closed faster (ultrafast diodes)?

More ringing? Arc over and battery go BOOM


David
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
Is this your circuit?


I see any circuit by Bedini on starters guide use diode between emitor and base.
http://freenrg.info/Bedini/SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-Two.pdf

Your circuit do not have such diode. I think this is important in regard of wave oscillation.
That's my circuit except the fat boy uses a 13-Filar coil (12 x MJL21194)

The diode is necessary for the motor circuits because without it a charge will build up on either side of the trigger coil during the field collapse and then once the field has fully collapsed that charge will discharge through the base of the transistor and trigger it again, forcing it into oscillation.

On solid state schematics a high value resistor is normally used in place of the 1N4001 diode, though I believe that resistor is just to prevent thermal runaway by regulating the voltage to the base. I find it isn't always necessary. But that's just me... I could be wrong, but it works and without that resistor the spike amplitude is noticeably higher.
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Old 10-29-2009, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by eternalightwithin View Post
What would happen if you slammed the door closed faster (ultrafast diodes)?

More ringing? Arc over and battery go BOOM


David
The UF4007 is an ultrafast diode

Thankfully my batteries haven't exploded yet... Lucky me!
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:05 AM
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The diode is necessary for the motor circuits because without it a charge will build up on either side of the trigger coil during the field collapse and then once the field has fully collapsed that charge will discharge through the base of the transistor and trigger it again, forcing it into oscillation.
I see, thanks. I use diode in similar place in my 555 circuit though, since it made the transformer sing cleaner.

On my recent experiment I found that higher voltage without load may not means faster charging. Do higher spike amplitude happen when using load or not? Will it make charging faster?
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:27 AM
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I see, thanks. I use diode in similar place in my 555 circuit though, since it made the transformer sing cleaner.

On my recent experiment I found that higher voltage without load may not means faster charging. Do higher spike amplitude happen when using load or not? Will it make charging faster?
What do you call a load?
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Old 10-29-2009, 12:25 PM
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That was a serious question by the way... I consider the battery the load.
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Old 10-30-2009, 02:47 AM
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What do you call a load?
In my video I use capacitor. The capacitor is being dump on every 20 seconds and adding ferrite core made the voltage raised faster.

Without the capacitor the output voltage show signficant reduction when using core.

YouTube - Coil core voltage measurement
YouTube - Loaded coil core voltage measurement, revised conclusion

Since I use my circuit to charge battery, I use core.
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
In my video I use capacitor. The capacitor is being dump on every 20 seconds and adding ferrite core made the voltage raised faster.

Without the capacitor the output voltage show signficant reduction when using core.

YouTube - Coil core voltage measurement
YouTube - Loaded coil core voltage measurement, revised conclusion

Since I use my circuit to charge battery, I use core.
Have you compared current draw with and without the core?

and in your first video where are you measuring the voltage?
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:35 AM
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Have you compared current draw with and without the core?
Not yet. I just did it with two fully charged nicad. With ferrite core 110mA, without core 140mA. I use digital multi meter. confusing lol. How come my second video charge faster if voltage and current is lower ?

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and in your first video where are you measuring the voltage?
Volt meter replacing the charged battery.
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Old 10-30-2009, 10:53 AM
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Well, judging from what I can see, this would be my interpretation:

by adding a core you are increasing the inductance of your coil. An air core coil normally has a much lower inductance than an iron core coil and so its Q (quality factor) is also alot lower... By adding a core you are increasing the Q of your coil. This means the inductance/resitance ratio is far more favourable because more energy is can stored in the magnetic field and less is being burnt up by the coil's resistance.

This should also cause in a drop in current draw.

I would guess that your cap is charging faster because of the increased Q so energy is being tranfered more efficiently from your source to your load (the cap).

Though this doesn't neccessarily mean that iron core is better than air core. By using an iron core you will also have losses though hysteresis and eddy currents in the core.

An air core coil won't have these losses though when operating at the same frequency and duty cycly more energy will be lost through the coils resistance because of the higher amp draw. An air core coil will operate more efficeintly than iron core at higher frequencies as this will reduce current draw and it won't have any core losses.

In your first video you show the voltage output in an open circuit is reduced when using a core. This will be because of the hysteresis of the core. The voltage induced in a coil is dependant on the rate of change of the magnetic field around the coil. Iron has far higher hysteresis than air so the magnetic field of an iron core coil will collapse slower than an air core coil resulting in lower voltage output.

EDIT: Ah! I see there IS a drop in current so that helps support what what I'm saying
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Old 10-31-2009, 01:06 AM
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I agree that air core have field collapse faster and make the voltage higher. As for current, I get more confuse when I redo the experiment.

Just done the recording, uploading will take a while.
I will post the video at separate thread since this is not about spike anymore.
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Old 10-31-2009, 01:43 AM
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Hi folks, posted this in solid state thread 'Hi folks, I rewired my joule thief circuit to this one by Sephiroth, it is even more efficient causing next to no heat in transistor and more output, maybe with the resistor going from the collector to the base its turning on the transistor more effectively and the bifilar not being connected at the high voltage flyback. This circuit is working very well, I would recommend folks try this one, since I've built Bedini's and the JT, this is even better.' Thanks for posting this circuit, though ive also come to the conclusion that darlington's cause excessive heating in transistors for whatever reasons in these self oscillators.
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Old 10-31-2009, 02:18 AM
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Which thread is that from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi folks, posted this in solid state thread 'Hi folks, I rewired my joule thief circuit to this one by Sephiroth, it is even more efficient causing next to no heat in transistor and more output, maybe with the resistor going from the collector to the base its turning on the transistor more effectively and the bifilar not being connected at the high voltage flyback. This circuit is working very well, I would recommend folks try this one, since I've built Bedini's and the JT, this is even better.' Thanks for posting this circuit, though ive also come to the conclusion that darlington's cause excessive heating in transistors for whatever reasons in these self oscillators.
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Old 10-31-2009, 03:20 AM
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I posted it in the solid state bedini thread, just reposted hear cause the circuit is working so well, even at 1/2 an amp input the transistor is barely warm and output is very good.
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Old 10-31-2009, 09:42 AM
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I posted it in the solid state bedini thread, just reposted hear cause the circuit is working so well, even at 1/2 an amp input the transistor is barely warm and output is very good.
peace love light
Tyson
Glad it's working well for you
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Old 10-31-2009, 10:14 AM
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Hi Sep.

I scoped my battery yesterday and found the same resonant ring that you have shown. Unfortunately my scope doesnt display it well, but I can definately see it there. I will try to get a photo sometime.

Very interesting. Thanks for posting this
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Old 07-21-2010, 07:20 AM
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Moved here from the Bedini 10 Coil thread

After seeing the scope shots of some other very low impedance devices, we have seen the same "resonant" ringing after the spike.

I believe it may be signal reflection which occurs from an impedance mismatch.

This seems unusual because we know that the ohmic impedance of an average lead acid battery is in the tens of milliohms or less. It is practically impossible to build a good quality coil that can handle an appropriate amount of power that can match the ohmic resistance of the batteries we are trying to charge so logically the lower you can make the coil's impedance, the closer it will be matched to the batteries impedance. Many believe impedance matching is one of the keys of Bedini's devices.

So why does this ringing appear in low impedance devices that should be more closely matched to the batteries? It would make sense if we took into account how lead acid batterys can behave like inductors because of the momentum of the heavy ions.

Basically, at moment the spike hits the battery, the ions are stationary and so creates a much higher impedance than the battery's internal resistance alone, at lest until the ions start moving. In this sense the battery has similar properties to an inductor.

I am now going to work with the theory that when the impedance of the device is too low for the batteries, we will see this ringing after the spike. If the impedance of the device is too high for the batterys, we either won't see a spike, or there will just be a small spike. When the impedances are matched, we should have the maximum spike amplitude and there will be no ringing.

@Ren -

you asked about how the ringing appears depending on the state of charge and the condition of the batteries.

The ringing isn't effected too much by the state of charge but there is a slight change.

The condition of the batteries does appear to make a difference but I haven't looked into it too much. The batteries I posted the wave from were my usual batteries that have spent their whole lives on bedini type chargers, so I would consider them to be in good condition.

Unfortunately, i only have those good batteries, and a whole load of sulphated batteries on the heavily sulphated batteries there is no spike, but the scope across the charging battery is different. instead of seeing the usual right angle triangle wave, the wave is more like an elipse, gradually rising, then gradually dropping again.

I'm going to have a play around with the coils of the MG3... there is a mild ringing across the battery at the moment and the coils resistance is estimated to be about 166 milliohms. I'm going to wire some of the coils in series to see if I can get an impedance match.

Will let you know how it goes

ps. remember the size of the battery bank Bedini was charging with the 10 coiler?
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:21 AM
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Reuploaded the images in the first post
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Old 07-23-2010, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Moved here from the Bedini 10 Coil thread

After seeing the scope shots of some other very low impedance devices, we have seen the same "resonant" ringing after the spike.

I believe it may be signal reflection which occurs from an impedance mismatch.

This seems unusual because we know that the ohmic impedance of an average lead acid battery is in the tens of milliohms or less. It is practically impossible to build a good quality coil that can handle an appropriate amount of power that can match the ohmic resistance of the batteries we are trying to charge so logically the lower you can make the coil's impedance, the closer it will be matched to the batteries impedance. Many believe impedance matching is one of the keys of Bedini's devices.

So why does this ringing appear in low impedance devices that should be more closely matched to the batteries? It would make sense if we took into account how lead acid batterys can behave like inductors because of the momentum of the heavy ions.

Basically, at moment the spike hits the battery, the ions are stationary and so creates a much higher impedance than the battery's internal resistance alone, at lest until the ions start moving. In this sense the battery has similar properties to an inductor.

I am now going to work with the theory that when the impedance of the device is too low for the batteries, we will see this ringing after the spike. If the impedance of the device is too high for the batterys, we either won't see a spike, or there will just be a small spike. When the impedances are matched, we should have the maximum spike amplitude and there will be no ringing.

@Ren -

you asked about how the ringing appears depending on the state of charge and the condition of the batteries.

The ringing isn't effected too much by the state of charge but there is a slight change.

The condition of the batteries does appear to make a difference but I haven't looked into it too much. The batteries I posted the wave from were my usual batteries that have spent their whole lives on bedini type chargers, so I would consider them to be in good condition.

Unfortunately, i only have those good batteries, and a whole load of sulphated batteries on the heavily sulphated batteries there is no spike, but the scope across the charging battery is different. instead of seeing the usual right angle triangle wave, the wave is more like an elipse, gradually rising, then gradually dropping again.

I'm going to have a play around with the coils of the MG3... there is a mild ringing across the battery at the moment and the coils resistance is estimated to be about 166 milliohms. I'm going to wire some of the coils in series to see if I can get an impedance match.

Will let you know how it goes

ps. remember the size of the battery bank Bedini was charging with the 10 coiler?
in Energy from the Vacuum - Part 2 - John Bedini
during the pendulum experiment he talks about the impedance of the energizer compared to that of the battery.
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Old 07-24-2010, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
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I am now going to work with the theory that when the impedance of the device is too low for the batteries, we will see this ringing after the spike. If the impedance of the device is too high for the battery, we either won't see a spike, or there will just be a small spike. When the impedances are matched, we should have the maximum spike amplitude and there will be no ringing.
Hi Sephirot,

Interestingly I was thinking about this yesterday, Impedance matching is always used where energy transfer is involved. But If you make your coil impedance too low compared to your battery, this means that your battery capacity to absorb energy is less than the ability of your coil to deliver energy, and this may heat up your battery and kill it if left much on the output of your device.
Inversely, if your coil has more impedance than you battery, the battery may not seem to charge very well, so there must be a reasonable relation between battery capacity and coil wire size.

Try charging small batteries with your normal energizer and see what I mean. It will heat up and may even die after a while, if left on the output.

It might be a useful idea to make a table that associates coil wire size with the battery size to be charged. No?

For Example:
Battery Capacity 1Ah, Wire Size #31
Battery Capacity 10Ah, Wire Size #21 or 10x #31 for a multifilar coil
Battery Capacity 100Ah, Wire Size #11 or 10x #21 for a multifilar coil

Elias
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Old 07-26-2010, 04:52 PM
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Looks like my theory was wrong... but not too far off.

It appears the spike is actually a result of the inductive impedance mismatch. The higher the inductance of the battery compared to the coils, the larger the spike will be. Or in other words, the lower the inductance of the coil, the greater the spike. I now believe that when the inductive impedances are matched, then there will be little or no spike.

Other factors will most likely be fastest possible switching and the power at cut off.

I still think the ringing is signal reflection, but since the inductive impedance mismatch appears to be desirable (to generate the spike), other ways are needed to eliminate the ringing so the battery receives the full force of the field collapse. Reducing the parasitic capacitance of the circuit is a possibility. Back to the lab....
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Old 07-27-2010, 01:36 AM
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It appears the spike is actually a result of the inductive impedance mismatch. The higher the inductance of the battery compared to the coils, the larger the spike will be. Or in other words, the lower the inductance of the coil, the greater the spike. I now believe that when the inductive impedances are matched, then there will be little or no spike.
Battery inductance?

Won't coil spike depend on battery impedance? Higher inductance coil = higher spike, higher battery impedance = higher spike?

From what data you conclude that?
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Old 07-27-2010, 03:40 AM
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These types of spikes are actually an area depiction of the energy stored in the inductor. If you were to plot the cmē of your scope that would be shaded inside the envelope of the primary spike, you would have a pictorial of the energy contained in that spike.

So the trade off is amplitude for time. A really wide spike will have a much lower amplitude as compared to a really narrow spike for the same energy stored in the inductor.

How is energy stored in the inductor? When voltage is applied across the inductor, a current begins flowing. That current is low at first, and then climbs over time with a steep rising curve that levels out as the inductor becomes charged. When the current nearly reaches its peak, the inductor has charged up practically as much as it can for that circuit and the charge is held suspended in the magnetic field surrounding the inductor. Adding resistance in series with an inductor will allow it reach its maximum current faster but it also limits the stored energy because the maximum current is reduced or limited by the resistor. The output impedance of a battery acts as such a resistance, limiting the total current that can flow through an inductor or wire.

So what determines how wide that spike is? Part of that is determined by how rapidly you turn off the current flow. The more abruptly you turn off the flow, the faster the collapse of the magnetic field. The faster the collapse, the narrower the spike. And of course it follows, that the narrower the spike, the taller the spike as mentioned in the opening paragraph.

So, for really big spikes you need:
1. A lot of energy stored in the inductor
2. Really fast shut off.


Now let's say we are going to use that spike to recharge or shock a dead battery back to life. First of all, we need to recognize that the spike exists as a separate power source when it develops. It is as if we charged up a component with energy, and now that component is able to power something on its own. We have seen this with batteries and capacitors that store energy - and we can take them out of the circuit and use them later - but for inductors it is not quite so easy because the storage requires continuous current to keep the field in place. But for all three, batteries, capacitors and inductors, they are all independent power sources once charged up. Because the spike is a separate power source, it will produce its own current, and that current is looking to flow back to the other side of the inductor because that is the reference for that independent power source. When we use a diode and allow the spike to form on the cathode of that diode, then the spike is unable to flow back through the inductor and is forced to find another path - in this case through the dead battery being revived.

If the dead battery has enough inductive reactance, then it can change how the spike energy is dissipated by delaying the current flow into the battery. Conversely, if the battery has very low impedance, then the energy that would normally present itself as a spike will simply be siphoned off into the battery before a spike can be formed. So when it is connected, the dead battery definitely impacts the spike in some measure. And this interaction will change as the battery is revived. As a battery becomes charged, the ability to pass reverse current will diminish and this will be seen by the spike as a high impedance and the spike will tend to increase in amplitude.

The best match would be to determine how much energy the battery can absorb in a few microseconds and choose an inductor that can store that energy. Then tune the circuit to only be ON long enough to charge the inductor, and OFF long enough to allow that energy to flow into the battery completely. The switch should turn off as fast as possible. And of course, you will want to ensure that your switch and diode can support the amplitude of the spike.

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  #27  
Old 07-27-2010, 03:53 AM
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sucahyo sucahyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvey View Post
So, for really big spikes you need:
1. A lot of energy stored in the inductor
2. Really fast shut off.
Thanks for the explanation .

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Originally Posted by Harvey View Post
As a battery becomes charged, the ability to pass reverse current will diminish and this will be seen by the spike as a high impedance and the spike will tend to increase in amplitude.
But my output current raise whenever the battery get more charge? Output current is highest when the battery is full? From my experiment high output current only happen on low impedance output?

More charge = lower impedance.
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Last edited by sucahyo; 07-27-2010 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 07-27-2010, 04:13 AM
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Harvey Harvey is offline
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Ringing

If the spike is isolated from the inductor by a diode, then we can expect the ringing of the inductor to be removed from the equation for the most part. There will be some residual because of small amplitude at the anode of the diode, but this is negligible.

So, when ringing is measured on the cathode of the diode that feeds the dead battery, then it is caused by one of two sources.

1. The wire inductance
2. The battery inductance

Both of these play a factor and the amount to which it applies is frequency dependent. This is because the inductive reactance is frequency dependent.

But the real crux of the matter is how much energy is being dumped into the battery and how much is being applied to charge it. When a sufficient amount of energy is dumped into the battery and it is unable to use it then it gets dissipated in other ways like heating and kinetic motion or flexing of the plates etc. You can even get them to sing and dissipate the energy via sound waves if you get it just right. What would be awesome, would be to dump a single spike into the load (dead battery) and have it fully absorbed and converted to charge. But that would be a perfect situation.

In reality, large energy discharges over short periods of time correspond to large current flow. Large current flow in a conductor (including lead plates and electrolytes) creates magnetic fields the eventually collapse and perpetuate the current flow that can actually produce BEMF across those pseudo-inductors and that induces the ringing back and forth until the energy is fully absorbed. This can really be interesting when the series capacitive reactance of the battery matches the inductive reactance of the wires and produces a resonant condition. Perhaps this is what John was referring to when he said the battery needed to resonate. If so, then perhaps that would be desirable and maybe even necessary in removing lead sulfate from the plates and reviving bad batteries.
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  #29  
Old 07-27-2010, 07:41 AM
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Sephiroth Sephiroth is offline
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Hi Harvey

Have you done much work with Bedini type chargers?
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:14 AM
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Sephiroth Sephiroth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
Battery inductance?
Yes, batteries (especially lead acid batteries) have resistive, capacitive, and inductive properties.

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Originally Posted by sucahyo View Post
Won't coil spike depend on battery impedance? Higher inductance coil = higher spike, higher battery impedance = higher spike?
Impedance is a blanket term for anything that "impedes" the flow of current... So yes, what I am saying is the spike is largely dependent on the battery's impedance, but specifically the impedance from the battery's inductance.
So Lower inductance coil = higher spike
Higher impedance battery = higher spike
The overshoot, which is the spike, is created through the load having a much higher impedance than the source. In this case, this impedance is inductive.

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From what data you conclude that?
I came to that conclusion from comparing the waveforms of several chargers, and rewiring their coils to give different levels of inductance.
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Last edited by Sephiroth; 07-27-2010 at 08:16 AM.
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