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John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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  #241  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:48 PM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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xpskid - i could not get the coils to work when they were wound in the same direction so i peeled one apart and rewound it so the coils are wound in opposite directions and then connected in series. They each consist of 4 strands of tight twist 18ga. about 300 feet long and one 22 ga. trigger wire as the monopole junkies will recognize all twisted together and soldered together at the ends so they are in parallel. I do have an inductance meter so i can measure them for you. The coils are about 3.5" in outside diameter and are wrapped arround a 1" steel bolt inside a pcv pipe with acrylic 1/4" side pieces. The bolt is anealed in an oven at 2000deg. F for a few hours to grow some oxide on the outside - not sure that is important but it does keep them in place I got the same results many in here got until my wave form looked like the one on Bedini's site for the stationary coil unit Ron Cole put together. I will post the scope trace of Ron's and mine when i get home. You may have all noticed but the scope trace looks to make sense with what is going on. It looks like a big sine wave that has been inverted part way up the pos slope and the sine pulse rides down and back up - same on the neg part of the wave. My thoughts are the magic is in that quick reversal, but could be wrong

Back to work i'll post more tonight, mostly pics. Oh BTW the reason for the short test is i need to build a better motor support. just wanted to run it long enough to do a quick test.

Take care,
Pneuphysics
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  #242  
Old 06-29-2009, 09:56 PM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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Lambda -

I am inclined to try the rotating armature with coils in the future. If i do i am going to try an idea i picked up on the net where all coils are arranged with the outside poles all the same and inside obviously the same but opposite. Has anyone tried this yet?

Pneuphysics
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  #243  
Old 06-29-2009, 10:24 PM
xpskid xpskid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuphysics View Post
xpskid - i could not get the coils to work when they were wound in the same direction so i peeled one apart and rewound it so the coils are wound in opposite directions and then connected in series.
Pneuphysics,

Reference the winding diagram in post #220. It's difficult to explain the windings in words, so you can use that image to say what is different or the same.

Regards,

Timm
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  #244  
Old 06-29-2009, 11:39 PM
kent_elyue kent_elyue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuphysics View Post
It looks like a big sine wave that has been inverted part way up the pos slope and the sine pulse rides down and back up - same on the neg part of the wave. My thoughts are the magic is in that quick reversal, but could be wrong
That's my thinking, too. I have considered that scope picture at length and tried to fathom it. It almost looks like a bounce, as if the signal overshot and snapped back, or hit some invisible boundary and reflected back on itself, before reversing polarity.

Just thinking aloud... I wonder if there is a way to precisely correlate the signal to the physical position of the coils in their rotation, and if there is any point in bothering?
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  #245  
Old 06-29-2009, 11:47 PM
MileHigh MileHigh is offline
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Gentlemen, you don't ever need to rewind your coils to change your confugurations. All that you need to do is swap the wires, it's as simple as that. When you swap the wires you invert the voltage waveform from the coil and reverse the current direction. Someone once posted that an easy way to check your coils are correctly connected in series is to measure AC volts while you run the motor. Just measure the voltage across two coils in series, swap the wires of one of the coils, run the motor again and measure the voltage. The configuration that gives you the higher AC voltage is the right one. Two coils in series can either add together or cancell each other out, so it's important.
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  #246  
Old 06-29-2009, 11:53 PM
kent_elyue kent_elyue is offline
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For what it's worth, here's another small (perhaps meaningless) detail. I was just studying the screenshots from the DVD again and I noticed that the height at which the stacked magnets rest on the pole pieces seems to be down around the center point of the coil. See the attachment. It's taken from around the 15 minute mark of the video.
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File Type: jpg closeup-f23649.jpg (35.1 KB, 87 views)
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  #247  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:05 AM
kent_elyue kent_elyue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileHigh View Post
Gentlemen, you don't ever need to rewind your coils to change your confugurations.
Under "normal AC situations" you may be right. But here I beg to differ. There is such a thing known as the "Right-hand Rule."


From Wikpedia:

"Left handedness

In certain situations, it may be useful to use the opposite convention, where one of the vectors is reversed and so creates a left-handed triad instead of a right-handed triad.

An example of this situation is for left-handed materials. Normally, for an electromagnetic wave, the electric and magnetic fields, and the direction of propagation of the wave obey the right-hand rule. However, left-handed materials have special properties - the negative refractive index. It makes the direction of propagation point in the opposite direction."
A perfect example of this is if one makes two short coils on the same core and joins them in the center (there are 3 possible permutations this way), as opposed to using one wire only and starting in the center of the core and, by turning the core, working outwards to both opposite ends. The latter is a very different result from any possible combination of wiring you can achieve using the first method of winding. I saw a picture of this recently, too. I'll see if I can locate it.
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  #248  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:33 AM
kent_elyue kent_elyue is offline
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VERY different

I couldn't find the picture I remembered, so I drew a very lame one to illustrate.

Simply switching wires around does NOT always accomplish the same end result as rewinding a CW winding into a CCW winding. In the picture below, no matter how you configure the two separate windings in the upper coil, you can never achieve the same result as in the lower coil.
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File Type: jpg very_different.jpg (24.1 KB, 33 views)
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  #249  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:59 AM
MileHigh MileHigh is offline
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Kent: I can't visualize the coil winding thing you are describing, a picture would be appreciated.

> It looks like a big sine wave that has been inverted part way up the pos slope and the sine pulse rides down and back up - same on the neg part of the wave. My thoughts are the magic is in that quick reversal, but could be wrong

If you guys can post a link to the waveform picture and a picture of the setup I should be able to explain it to you. Once you understand what's going on it should allow you to just look at any kind of generator and visualize the output from it.

> X(L) = 2*pi*f*L, X(L) being inductive reactance as I cannot do subscripts on here.

> Now, plug in the inductance you measured and then the other variable would be your frequency, which is based upon the RPM and the number of poles. If it is a 4 pole, I imagine there would be 4 pulses per revolution, so multiply the RPM by 4. Now I can see why John states it is a bell curve, and is speed dependant, as the impedance is frequency dependant.

Those are really interesting points above. I realize that I made a mistake with my previous comments saying the coil output impedance was more important than the coil resistance. The reason for this is that the frequency 'f' in the equation above will be roughly ((RPM x 4)/60) and the 'L' will also be very small. Therefore X(L) will be a very very small number.

The total impedance of the coil will be the coil resistance R plus the reactance X(L). Since X(L) is so small at your generator frequency you can ignore it. Without a long story, I was also incorrect about searching for an impedance match for generator applications.

Please have a look at the firt part of this application note from Jaycar: (I hope I can post URLs, and you can see where I went wrong for a typical generator application)

www dot jaycar dot com.au/images_uploaded/impmatch.pdf

Finally, the frequency calculation is very very roughty ((RPM x 4)/60) in your setup but it is quite a bit more complicated than that. It's actually a frequency spectrum.
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  #250  
Old 06-30-2009, 01:13 AM
MileHigh MileHigh is offline
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Kent: Re: The drawing with the two coil examples. Your lower coil is a combination of a CW coil followed by a CCW coil on the same core. That's something that you never want to do because if the two halves are the same number of turns they will cancel each other out and there will be no inductance at all.

What I said about simply swapping the wires from the coils to make sure they all add up is true. Of course I am assuming that in the convertor both coils are passing by their respective magnets at the same time. You can look at a coil output as a device that generates a "differential" output. The only thing that is important is the difference in voltages across the two terminals of the coil. If you flip the wires of the coil, it's the same as reversing the wires of your multimeter, when the instantaneous voltage on the terminals measures 10 volts, you can flip the wires of the coil, or flip your multimeter leads, and you will measure -10 volts. It's like you can get a mirror image of the voltage waveform just by swapping the leads. I hope that helps!
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  #251  
Old 06-30-2009, 01:13 AM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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Bingo Kent

Bingo Kent -

Lefthand and Righthand rule dates way back. your description makes sense to me and I'll tell you that coil bugged the heck out of me to where i was reduced to winding a string around a dowel rod and flipping it end to end. I do not know why but it did not give me the wave form i wanted until i rewound it. Here are my wave forms - rectified and full wave.

One the waveshape issue you can trace a large sine wave, set the paper down in front of you and fold the top section down over the bottom with your crease half way up the positive peak. Then the same with the bottom folding it up over the top half way up the negative peak. Put it upto the light and what do you see? To rectify it fold it in half top to bottom.

Enjoy,
Pneuphysics
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BeforeRectified30hzKromreyTrace.jpg (282.7 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg Rectified60hzKromreyTrace.jpg (125.2 KB, 48 views)
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  #252  
Old 06-30-2009, 01:28 AM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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Mile_High,

I do understand what you are saying but I believe one key here is a small point that Bedini makes in previous videos that may be at play - not sure - but it is the cancelling here that looks to classical EE's like a cancelled potential but when in fact there are 2 large potentials our meters see as 0 because they oppose. I believe that is what Bedini is chasing because they are still large potentials capable of great things if harnesed properly. I do not know for sure but I do know when I have applied total conventional wisdom i have not gotten the results i wanted. only when i step way out of the box.

For what it's worth
Pneuphysics
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  #253  
Old 06-30-2009, 01:50 AM
MileHigh MileHigh is offline
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Pneuphysics: You said:

> One the waveshape issue you can trace a large sine wave, set the paper down in front of you and fold the top section down over the bottom with your crease half way up the positive peak. Then the same with the bottom folding it up...

It sure as hell looks like that doesn't it? lol Sometimes you gotta look harder! lol

I have a question or two: For the unrectified waveform, is that across just one coil? Can you describe the what magnet polarity sequence the coil sees as it goes around a full turn? (It looks to me like N-S or N-S-N-S if there are four magnets)

For the cancelled potentials stuff I can only ask you to try some stuff and see for yourself. I am very confident on my side.
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  #254  
Old 06-30-2009, 02:02 AM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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XpsKid - Thanks for the warm welcome -

XpsKid - Thanks for the warm welcome -

Here are a couple pics - 1 while glueing the coils mounts in gives a good shot of the coils. For scale the center bolts are 1" diameter and the plastic side squares are 4 1/4" on each side.

The other shot is taken during testing setup.

I am working on that wiring you requested, since it is not the same as the 4 coil rotary i will draw and scan it in. I do have a drawing i may include now that shows how the coils are wound but is connected in parallel.

Take care,
Pneuphysics
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Last edited by pneuphysics; 07-04-2009 at 05:07 PM.
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  #255  
Old 06-30-2009, 02:09 AM
xpskid xpskid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuphysics View Post
Mile_High,

I do understand what you are saying but I believe one key here is a small point that Bedini makes in previous videos that may be at play - not sure - but it is the cancelling here that looks to classical EE's like a cancelled potential but when in fact there are 2 large potentials our meters see as 0 because they oppose. I believe that is what Bedini is chasing because they are still large potentials capable of great things if harnesed properly. I do not know for sure but I do know when I have applied total conventional wisdom i have not gotten the results i wanted. only when i step way out of the box.

For what it's worth
Pneuphysics

MileHigh,

I very much appreciate your lengthy discussions and thought out answers, you are well versed in these areas, but I must ask, did you purchase and have you watched EFV DVD 10 ?

The one point I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on is the idea that all can be explained by classical theory and that outside the blackbox (The Kromrey) one should be able to apply traditional measurements and meters to document the device performance. If a device supposedly can power kW's of load through a wire measured in microns, how can that fit traditional theory ? My point being, if it turns out that I can measure it via a meter, great !, but I"m going to rely on observations as stated above first, and if they manifest themselves, I'm going to chase'em !.

I just don't want to miss a clue because my meter say nothing is happening.

Respectfully submitted,

Timm
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  #256  
Old 06-30-2009, 02:21 AM
xpskid xpskid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuphysics View Post
XpsKid - Thanks for the warm welcome -

Here are a couple pics - 1 while glueing the coils mounts in gives a good shot of the coils. For scale the center bolts are 1" diameter and the plastic side squares are 4 1/4" on each side.

The other shot is taken during testing setup.

I am working on that wiring you requested, since it is not the same as the 4 coil rotary i will draw and scan it in. I do have a drawing i may include now that shows how the coils are wound but is connected in parallel.

Take care,
Pneuphysics
Pneuphysics,

Looks like a G-Field unit ! That's great

There are a couple folks working on this design, I'm sure you'll hear from them.
One point the I know Lambda and myself are working on is John's statement in the DVD (Town Hall Meeting .... I believe, off the top of my head 1:49 +) that " You must produce 2 figure eight patterns" . Not sure how that fits in or how it's wound.... but it appears you've moved the group closer to a low impedance wind.

When you get a chance, fill us in on the specific's of you build.

I assume you didn't do anything with the trigger wire.... just open ended ?

Regards,

Timm
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  #257  
Old 06-30-2009, 02:31 AM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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MileHigh - 8)

MileHigh -

It sure as hell looks like that doesn't it? lol Sometimes you gotta look harder! lol
Don't use black construction paper, use tracing paper!

I have a question or two: For the unrectified waveform, is that across just one coil? Can you describe the what magnet polarity sequence the coil sees as it goes around a full turn? (It looks to me like N-S or N-S-N-S if there are four magnets)

Sure - the unrectified waveform is taken from the rectifier ac inputs. The bars in my picture (2, one on each side of the coil) have a C8 ferrite magnet ssg standard 7/8x1 7/8x3/8 one at each of the 4 ends and are N,S. So when 2 magnets cross the top they are N,S and on the bottom those crossing at the same time on the bottom coil are S,N the opposite.

For the cancelled potentials stuff I can only ask you to try some stuff and see for yourself. I am very confident on my side.

Have you ever built anything that displayed COP>1 taking its extra input from an unknown or unconventional source?

Happy OUing
Pneuphysics
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  #258  
Old 06-30-2009, 02:49 AM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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Great XpsKid -

I tied the trigger to the others - all 5 wires are in parallel - let me go measure it right now. Right back. Well all i can get is a dc resistance of 1 ohm across both coils in series - My inductance meter either is not working or out of range. I'll post more as soon as i have time.

Thanks,
Pneuphysics
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  #259  
Old 06-30-2009, 03:53 AM
MileHigh MileHigh is offline
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Timm: No I haven't seen the EFTV 10 so that puts me at a disadvantage.

> If a device supposedly can power kW's of load through a wire measured in microns, how can that fit traditional theory ?

Without seeing the DVD it's a bit hard to comment on what was demoed. A generic answer would be that as long as your voltage is high enough, you can drive a kW load through a very tiny wire.

It's great that you are going to investigate your setup. I am pretty rusty on this stuff, but I have a very solid foundation. We can always agree to disagree like diplomats. I just ask you to not make too many intellectual leaps and always assume that the device is unconventional to explain things that you don't understand. From my perspective the device looks like a meat and potatoes alternator. So please try to keep both viewpoints in your thought processes. I would be willing to see the "other side" if I saw something convincing myself.

Pneuphysics: Are you French? Oops, I get it now "pneu <-> new."

For your unrectified waveform: Start below the second "0" in the fist "30.02Hz". That's the beginning of your "sine wave", it's not the middle of a folded-down peak like you think. Suppose the coils are starting to see "N-S" here. The spike you see slightly left of center of the "2" is the positive peak of your sine wave. Then you see the zero-cross and the negative peak of your sine wave. The next sine wave starts below the "H" and this time it is upside-down because the rotor has rotated by 180 degrees and now the coils see the beginning of the opposite polarity, "S-N". Since the magnetic polarity is now reversed, you see a mirror-image sine wave, almost like you swapped the leads. In this case you swapped the polarities.

So that's the waveform: sine wave, inverted sine wave, sine wave, etc. I am using the term "sine wave" very loosely here.

If you are scratching your heads here I suggest that you do some Wikipedia reading up on this stuff. For example, do you know why it barely resembles a sine wave? You would be much better with your future research if you understand this important concept first. I am too tired to go any further...
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  #260  
Old 06-30-2009, 07:39 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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In order to comprehend batter the phenomena we seek to experience perhaps we should question ourselves.

What are the major construction differences (not performance) between a Kromrey generator (G-field) and a conventional one ??? (say a DCPM motor that is also generator)

Regards,
Baroutologos

* a list of key points and some explaination will be great
** if we cannot spot any desicive difference(s) then we too far from goal
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  #261  
Old 06-30-2009, 06:31 PM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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To MileHigh

MileHigh > For your unrectified waveform: Start below the second "0" in the fist "30.02Hz". That's the beginning of your "sine wave", it's not the middle of a folded-down peak like you think.

Me > I had no such thought - sine wave measurement IMHO starts as the wave crosses the zero point upward to the first peak and continues until the following negative peak comes up through the zero point. I can only assume you missed my point on the paper doll exercise.

MileHigh > Suppose the coils are starting to see "N-S" here. The spike you see slightly left of center of the "2" is the positive peak of your sine wave. Then you see the zero-cross and the negative peak of your sine wave. The next sine wave starts below the "H" and this time it is upside-down because the rotor has rotated by 180 degrees and now the coils see the beginning of the opposite polarity, "S-N". Since the magnetic polarity is now reversed, you see a mirror-image sine wave, almost like you swapped the leads. In this case you swapped the polarities.

Me > Yes this is my take too.

So that's the waveform: sine wave, inverted sine wave, sine wave, etc. I am using the term "sine wave" very loosely here.

Me > Yes this is my take too.

If you are scratching your heads here I suggest that you do some Wikipedia reading up on this stuff. For example, do you know why it barely resembles a sine wave? You would be much better with your future research if you understand this important concept first. I am too tired to go any further...

Me > I understand my design - i was just struct by the visual i tried to convey by the drawing exercise.
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  #262  
Old 06-30-2009, 06:56 PM
xpskid xpskid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuphysics View Post
Bingo Kent -

Here are my wave forms - rectified and full wave.

Enjoy,
Pneuphysics
From a non-EE point of view....
The longest time period appears to be peak to peak... so I'd interpret that as when the magnets are moving to the next pole.
The magnet move into the pole center line, approaching the core which is polarized opposite from the previous magnet. The pos peak (under the first 2) is the result of reversing the core and closing the flux circuit. As the magnet leaves, the field dumps through the coil, the resulting immediate reversal peak. Using SSG/Bedini logic, the very sharp reversal should be the key. The next cycle start opposite (Neg) but is a similar process.

Is that consistent with your interpretation Pneuphysics ?

Timm
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  #263  
Old 06-30-2009, 07:11 PM
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dllabarre dllabarre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MileHigh View Post
The reason for this is that the frequency 'f' in the equation above will be roughly ((RPM x 4)/60) and the 'L' will also be very small.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambda View Post
Now, plug in the inductance you measured and then the other variable would be your frequency, which is based upon the RPM and the number of poles. If it is a 4 pole, I imagine there would be 4 pulses per revolution, so multiply the RPM by 4.
Mike H.

Posted are 2 different equations for estimating frequency.

Which equation is correct for estimating frequency?
(RPM x 4) or ((RPM x 4)/60)

Thanks
DonL
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  #264  
Old 06-30-2009, 07:54 PM
xpskid xpskid is offline
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Originally Posted by dllabarre View Post
Which equation is correct for estimating frequency?
(RPM x 4) or ((RPM x 4)/60)

Thanks
DonL
Don,

I'll take a stab at this, but it kind of depends...

Hertz (which your equations will need) is cycles/sec
So for a two pole device (unrectified), I would think a full revolution would = 1 cycle or wave, a positive peak and a negative peak. So cycles / sec would = RPM/60.

On a six pole device I would think you'd get 3 full cycles, thus 3xRPM/60

Not sure on a 4 pole device because it sees N-N-S-S

If you think in terms of pulses, not full cycles, then a 2 pole = #polesxRPM/60
Yet as you look a pneuphysics wave form, it appears to show 4 peaks per revolution ?

Is that correct ?

Timm
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  #265  
Old 06-30-2009, 08:18 PM
Lambda Lambda is offline
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Actually, the ((RPM X 4) / 60) would be correct, as the formula I posted would put it in cycles per minute, and this corrects it to cycles per second, which is how it should be. Sorry about that!

I'm getting the same waveforms, both AC & DC that Pneuphysics has posted, but I'm not experiencing any of the effects, which I believe is due to the coil's impedance. The 4 coils are wound with a single 23 AWG, 550 turns per coil. Some wire came in today, so I can tri-filar it (22AWG) and then hopefully the coils impedance will fall inside the bell curve. Hopefully we can eventually figure out the bell curve John speaks of, where the peak is, and the thresholds to get inside of it.

Regards,

Mike
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Last edited by Lambda; 06-30-2009 at 08:19 PM. Reason: Add some info
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  #266  
Old 06-30-2009, 08:33 PM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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xpskid -

If you think in terms of pulses, not full cycles, then a 2 pole = #polesxRPM/60
Yet as you look a pneuphysics wave form, it appears to show 4 peaks per revolution ?

My view - Yep the first 2 pos peaks are what one magnet makes and the valley between being a function of what the bottom magnet does to that what would be single pos peak if the bottom magnet did not push back with its own potential - opposite direction. the second 2 peaks come from the negative part of the bottom sine wave pushd up in the middle by the opposite pole. 4 peaks per revolution. 10-4
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Old 06-30-2009, 08:47 PM
pneuphysics pneuphysics is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpskid View Post
From a non-EE point of view....
The longest time period appears to be peak to peak... so I'd interpret that as when the magnets are moving to the next pole.
The magnet move into the pole center line, approaching the core which is polarized opposite from the previous magnet. The pos peak (under the first 2) is the result of reversing the core and closing the flux circuit. As the magnet leaves, the field dumps through the coil, the resulting immediate reversal peak. Using SSG/Bedini logic, the very sharp reversal should be the key. The next cycle start opposite (Neg) but is a similar process.

Is that consistent with your interpretation Pneuphysics ?

Timm
Yep - i also noticed a big difference in output with respect to speed. Not scientific but i was able to get non rectified pulses of only 4 to 5vdc with a drill motor. when i went with a 24vdc motor it went up to 58vdc. I know someone mentioned there is a speed curve but so far i do not see an end to the pulse potential. One of my magnet bars center hole did not machine straight, i need to put it back on the mill and bore it out. Also, i am searching my junk drawer to find a larger dc motor. I do have a 100hp aircraft starter generator. whoo hoo probably send my magnets into the 10 dimension

Take care,
Pneuphysics
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:05 PM
xpskid xpskid is offline
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Coil windings

Folks,

I'd be interested in anyones experience with coil fabrication with respect to windings. Different ways to wind the coil... Which ways reduce the inductance/impedance ? Are there ways to provide a capacitance effect via the wind configuration ?

We've had multi-filar and twisted multi-filar... Does anyone have data to suggest what twisting does to the reisistance/inductance/ impedance ?
Are there other tricks ?

Thanks,

Timm
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  #269  
Old 06-30-2009, 09:20 PM
MileHigh MileHigh is offline
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For the waveform, when the rotating magents are perfectly lined up with the coils, the optput voltage is zero, just like the pick-up coil in a Bedini motor. You only see the waveform cross zero on the very steep parts. That might help.

For the frequency calculation for the coil reactance, X(L), like I said before we are only making a very rough estimate by calculating the magnet fly-by frequency. The formula only works for a pure, true sine wave, where there are no harmonics. The coil waveform has a lot of harmonics in it so the calculation is a bit more complicated.
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Old 07-01-2009, 12:45 AM
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Shamus Shamus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kent_elyue View Post
A non-magnetic cage?
I know, stupid question...
There are no stupid questions IMO. Yes, the cage is made of 3/4" MDF--quite non-magnetic.
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