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John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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  #61  
Old 06-10-2009, 11:04 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Does anyone knows where i can find a high torque permanent magnet motor (150+ watt) that has the ability to free wheel when not turned on?

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Baroutologos
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  #62  
Old 06-10-2009, 12:18 PM
Mark Mark is offline
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You mean like an automotive starter, blower motor or cooling fan motor?
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  #63  
Old 06-10-2009, 12:41 PM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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@ Mark

As you already know, i try to replicate FEG. For this reason i look for a permanent type motor that is efficient enough and freewheels when unpowered.

I know that many Dc motors when unpowered, they oppose rotation. I do not want that.
Are automotive starters efficient motors? Are they freewheeling?
What do you suggets.

Regards,
Baroutologos
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  #64  
Old 06-10-2009, 12:44 PM
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Smile

Maybe an electric scooter motor?

I bet they are freewheeling....

Tj
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  #65  
Old 06-10-2009, 01:43 PM
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Baroutologos

I'm not sure how much torque you need but a heater blower motor and a cooling fan motor both free wheel. When you look at the picture of the FEG that Bedini built at this web sight 20* Bedini the drive motor is a blower motor. Scroll down about 2/3 of the way down and you will see a split picture of Bedini'd and Watson machines.

Mark
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  #66  
Old 06-11-2009, 07:31 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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I need to procure, some I laminations with the following characteristics.
High magnetic flux permeatability & low eddie-hysteresis losses.

Anyone knows any shop on line?

Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: Thanks tj for the electric scooter info
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  #67  
Old 06-11-2009, 03:50 PM
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[QUOTE=baroutologos;56831]I need to procure, some I laminations with the following characteristics.
High magnetic flux permeatability & low eddie-hysteresis losses.

QUOTE]
What about dismantling an existing transformer? Will that material suit you?

Microwave ovens are being regularly thrown out with the rubbish, and abound in recycling centres. They have a mean 8:1 mains transformer.
Paul_R
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  #68  
Old 06-12-2009, 09:45 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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I have dismantled an existing transformer and make experiments on my device.
But i plan at using around my rotor some 10-15 coils, so i am gonna need too many laminations that will be uniform in dimensions.

Any shop that sells will be great. By the way i need laminations and bobins that fit those. :s too many materials...

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Baroutologos
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  #69  
Old 06-13-2009, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baroutologos View Post
Hello all,

I put together my SSG-FEG combo and test it. I must admit its a failure..

With 40 volts and 3 axial coils max out 1100 rpm only with the finest lubrication.
I intended at achieving some 3000 rmp. Not such luck tho
For others to know, axial SSG is MUCH more defficient than radial in terms of speed/torque. Anyway, ssg does not fit the purpose as originally thought.

I am dissapointed.
Nevertheless, i will pursue the FEG cause with pulsed permanent magnet motor or rotorverter.

Can anyone suggests a source for high torque permanent magnet motors for FEg?
Or rotoverter. Have anyone experience from such units?


Regards,
Baroutologos
I am not sure why your results are like this, I wonder how is your magnet spacings. In order to get higher RPM you'd better increase your magnet spacings. My Machine has three coils with four magnets making it a Bedini/Muller Hybrid and I am planning to extract energy by adding more coils to it. It currently operates at around 1500 RPM with 20V,650mA. I have been able to extract about 0.6W with minimal drag, by using one coil, I am experimenting with different configurations. For now I have connected the Bedini charger output to a 40W lamp, with a capacitor across it.

I have hopes to make this machine go above unity. It currently recovers almost half of the supplied energy to the lamp around 6W. My machine is using 6W, therefore by being able to add around 10 such coils it will operate at unity, I am now trying to figure out if I can increase the energy output, by using different configurations.

I wonder what kind of geometry of the coil would produce the most output.

Elias

Elias
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  #70  
Old 06-15-2009, 01:56 PM
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Hi Elias
Please post some photos. It sounds as if you got a nice machine there. Something that I struggle with as I do not have all that mechanical skills.
Why dont you try Cody`s suggestion to get more voltage out of your coil.
There is a post about it a bit earlier in this thread(video). They short the coil as the sine wave reach its max voltage ie: when the magnet is alligned with your coil , I think! and it results in a huge voltage spike simillar to the bemf spike when you drive the coil with a pulse instead of a magnet
I want to try it but just doesn`t get time to do it.
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  #71  
Old 06-16-2009, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
Hi Elias
Please post some photos. It sounds as if you got a nice machine there. Something that I struggle with as I do not have all that mechanical skills.
Why dont you try Cody`s suggestion to get more voltage out of your coil.
There is a post about it a bit earlier in this thread(video). They short the coil as the sine wave reach its max voltage ie: when the magnet is alligned with your coil , I think! and it results in a huge voltage spike simillar to the bemf spike when you drive the coil with a pulse instead of a magnet
I want to try it but just doesn`t get time to do it.
Thanks nvisser

I would post some photos as soon as possible, BTW I think that the high voltage is resulted when the magnet is leaving the coil. thanks for the nice comments. I am currently working on it on some days, and will try some different configurations if possible, it is a whole mess here in Iran, so I'll post it as soon as I get home: Iran's Disputed Election - The Big Picture - Boston.com

There are some strong evidence of rigging the election and people are protesting against the government.
Plz pray ...

Elias
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  #72  
Old 06-16-2009, 03:50 PM
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[QUOTE=baroutologos;56426]
Can anyone suggest a source for high torque permanent magnet motors for FEG?
Hi
I remembered last night about this video I saw. I also download the pdf awhile ago from a torrent.
The fuel less motor!! See:

YouTube - The Fuelless Engine

They turn the coils with thin wire (27 awg), lots of turns. I made a coil like that and it measured about 660 ohms using the thin wire from east, west correction coils on crt monitors. I do plan to build a motor like that one day.
Anyway they use a battery and inverter to get a 110 or 220v ac voltage depending on your countries standards. It goes to a voltage trippler (diodes and capacitors) and the result is 1000v dc low current. That goes into 2 or more capacitor banks and these voltages are switched to the coils by normal brushes (commutators)
They recon that if you switch such a hi voltage into a coil like this it will expel a magnet to the roof. Apparently dangerous!
They also claim this motor to be high torque and it only draws low current.
They also claim to recharge the drive battery with the bemf like in Bedini`s ssg with a diode
I personally think there are great potential in this method. Only no time to explore
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  #73  
Old 06-16-2009, 09:34 PM
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high torque motors

[QUOTE=nvisser;57290]
Quote:
Originally Posted by baroutologos View Post
Can anyone suggest a source for high torque permanent magnet motors for FEG?
I am not sure about applicability to the FEG, but an interesting
series of high torque magnet motors is the Lynch Etek range
made by the electric branch of Briggs & Stratton.
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  #74  
Old 06-17-2009, 07:40 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Its time to post my results to thsi forum also as i did not the overunity.com

You must excuse my initial frustration since the damned motor failed to my expectations. But I have many things to learn from that, in low-medium rpm region. (1100)

So far my "FEG-PEREPEITEIA" combo is not about efficiency. Its about pointing out the pirnciple.

Thus not taking into consideration the input power, feeding the inefficient motor (SSG) as much as possible, i managed to achieved some 1200+ rpm.

THE TEST
..........................................

My coil specs: 55mm height, 13mm core stuffed with wire rods (33) insulated each other, wound smoothly (with a drill) with 0.3mm enameled wire @ 72 ohms.

Naturally any coil put in generator mode under load decellarates. (Lenz's law) This is not always the case.

I run it and above the 1100 rmp threshold yes there was accelaration on rotor when the coil shorted.
I repeat, I confirm accelaration, as many have claimed (Heins, Bedini, Muller etc). I do not own yet a tachymeter but its easy to see it by the increasing voltage produced due to rmp increase.

0.13 Amps (more or less) current was oscillated in that coil (AC) at 105+ volts


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Baroutologos
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  #75  
Old 06-17-2009, 07:44 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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First Impressions
.................................................. ....................
Shorting means smoother action
.................................................. ...................

The particular High Volatge coil when shorted in the low rpm region (that's relative, for my case >900 rpm) showed a remarkable decelaration.
Between 900-1100 the shorted coil made no difference to rpm, whereas above 1100 it started slowly to accelarate. (not much though)

By the way, no matter what the rpm, (accelaration or deccelaration) when the coil remains unshorted infront the spinning rotor of neos there is signifficant vibration and noise in the whole structure. (8mm gap)

When shorted, (accelarating or deccelarating) the vibration and cogging action just vanishes! It goes as if it is "lubricated", in a smooth fashion. Interesting effect...

HV coil shorted accelarates, if loaded then deccelarates!
.................................................. ..................................

I reapetedly made the same experiment and observation. With two coils so far.
There is a peculiar property of the HV coil. When shorted and goes to accelaration mode, you can measure the current that oscillates in it. (mine had 0.13 Amps AC through it)
Notice i use the term "oscillating" current through it.

The bizzare thing is that, if you apply to the HV coil an signifficant load that restrain its oscillating current, (form 130 ma to 60 ma via an 1K ohm load) not only accelaration does vanishes, BUT, it start to act as a normal generator coil. (brake)

Notice that i did not reached those coclusions easily. But to my setup at least it more than obvious.

Bottom line, if I want to harvest any power from my HV coil, it must be done in such way as to impose as low as possible impedance to the oscillating current.

(Note the max outputted power that my HV coil can deliver in a 1kohm resistance and acts as a break is 3 watts, whereas if i connect it to charge a batt via a FWBR i can harvest almost 1watt with minimal if any deccelaration)

Regards,
Baroutologos
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  #76  
Old 06-17-2009, 07:48 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Experiments with a new HV coil
.................................................. ...............

I decided to go up in HV coil's turns so as to achieve accelaration from lower rpm. Oddly enough, in my setup it turned out that not to be the case.

I made a similar dimensions, same core, magnet gap etc HV coil wound with the same manner 0.3mm enameled wire at 113ohm this time.

I decided to mount it on the rotor next to the other working HV coil. (see previous posts for specs)

Findings
.................................................. ......
With this one even though of greater impedance and higher generating voltage (120 vAC vs 100 vAC) the accelaration effect failed to manifest in the >1100 region.

From rough estimations and assuming that it has a similar behaviour to the other one, it should go above 1500rpm to do the trick, (my estimation). I was surpised to see that.

First conclusions
.................................................. .....
The HV effect (accelaration effect) it seems to be an superficial one (as electricity production on a coil is) that happens on the surface of the iron that gets-magnetized/demagnetized constantly and NOT be totally dependent of the coil's impedance.

I now firmly believe (and i plan to prove it) that above a critical layer thickness over the iron core (that transfers the magnetic flux from magnet to windings) the surplus layers are just a burden (ohm resistance), contributing at "loading the HV coil and diminishing the effect.

On the other hand, for that critical layer height that there is an active magnetization/demagnetization action zone you must have an "sufficient" number of turns to easily initiate the event. The more, the easier.(more = lower rpm initiation, higher voltage generation,but lower oscillating current and vice versa)

You can now understand what i suggest by observations only.

But, i need you people to verify or invalidate my findings that so as all to be on the same side.

Regards,
Baroutologos
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  #77  
Old 06-17-2009, 07:52 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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A verification of concept
.................................................. ..............

My working "HV" coil i modified it. On the circumference i added thick iron wire so as to make another iron "core".
On top of the wire i added some 3-4 ohms HC coil that is wound with 22AWG.

When rotor full speed (1100rpm) it outpus some 12vAC. When shorted no matter what rpm i obtain it slows down the system. Normal generator mode as expected.

Regards,
Baroutologos
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  #78  
Old 06-17-2009, 08:02 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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The accelaration effect
.................................................. ...........

In order anyone to be able to produce energy in a generator without having to deal with Mr Lenz those are the key factors:

So, what i learnt so far is that in order to extract some energy out of the
HV coils you must combine:

* magnets number-frequency-topology, field strength, magnetic flux
The more magnets the better. If you go alternative polarity even better (but you gonna need x 2 since frequency goes in NS pairs).
If you made a closed magnetic path frequency (Kromrey) even better results.
The stronger the magnets the better. But saturation considerations arise. We do not wnat that.
And... freequency or speed. If magnets do not move you should expect nothing. Moving them fast is a key element to the process. It is debated whether the phainomenon is attributed to magnet speed or just frequency. Oppinions incline to frequency.

* core material (the lower the eddies and hysteresis losses the better - no aircore)
* reactance considerartions. We need higher possible impedance in lower resistance (impedance+resistance balance)
* Current from coils should go as much un-restrained as possible. You can not overload the coils. this will diminish the effect. I have not tried an diode plug to see, but higher impedance to them (could be dc resistance or just batteries to charge) meaning diminishing results.
or put in other words,

Restraining the oscillating currentt, not only nulls accelaration but i found HV coil impedes the system (slows rotor) as a normal generator coil should do.

Its a riddle, is not it?
Experiment with those factors

BTW, accelaration effect is hapening between a range of rpm rather than goin on indefinately.

Regards,
Baroutologos
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  #79  
Old 06-17-2009, 08:40 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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How HV coil works in accellaration mode (Theory)
.................................................. .......................

The coil has a high relative impedance. When operate belowe threshold speed it acts per Lenz'law.
Above that, coil's impedance prevents current to flow (or flows little) till magnet TDC. At that point with voltage at *max value or near it the coil "discharges" as a capacitor does not current begin to flow.

Only this time, the current assists motion instead of impeding it.

* Its experimentally proven that at TDC there is voltage on coil. Some say some other say maximum. I say enough if not maximum.

This has been attributed
- to paracitic capacitance (i am not to that oppinion from observations so far)
- purely on impedance (hmmm)
- iron core's characteristics (iron charges-discharges etc) and so on

Actually is has been observed that voltage peak is a moving thing. It "slips" with rotor speed at given configuration. Those with some experience on adam's motor with triggering mechanism will underastand.
In low rpm it tends to be at before TDC and tdc is null whereas at high rpm it goes towards TDC.

It has been proposed also the accellaration effect is due to reasonance (i am not that oppinion) since it operates in a window of rpm.
Lastly parallel wound series connected coils that boost paracitic capacitance is said to increase the phainomenon. I had some experiments and found not to be the case, but again mine experiments [are totally inconclusive.

HV coils with parallel wound, parallel connected wires have some spectacular attributes in load handling. (verified but inconclusive results)

Regards,
Baroutologos
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:10 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Series wound coil
.................................................. ...

I wound a bifillar ala Tesla style coil with two wires (not twisted) at 38 ohms each (some 150m). This way the paracitic capacitance is orders of magnitude than sigle wire wound coil (voltage depending).

Series connected
........................
By series connecting the two parallel coils in the 1100 rpm region i did not managed to achieve any accelaration. (decellaration little though)

This series connected coils output 110 Vac and 0,15 A was the shorted oscillating current. I had to redo the experiment in higher frequency (3000rpm)

Interesting effects of biffilar coil in PARALLEL mode
.................................................. .........................

By the way there are amazing results of the bifilar setup that not sigle wire wound coils have.
When i parallel connected the two coils i had a 55 VAC at 1100 rmp and some 0,3 A oscillating current.
Neither this way i achieved any accelaration, but...
With great astonishement i found out the fact that when you pose a load to coil, it can handle it way better than a single wound wire coil of same size or output in terms of Lenz's law decellaration.

Shorting it
.................................................. ......................

Even though in the decellaration mode, when i shorted it it decellarates the rotor just a bit (from 1100 to 1000 rmp)
If you just short only the one parallel coil, great decellaration kicks in and brings the rotor to full stop.

I remember from my previous experiments that if i shorted a coil not in the accelaration mode, then it initially would slow down a bit, but as the rotor it would slow down, the decellaration becomes faster and faster till to dead stop.

Bifillar coil from my initial experiments has way better way of handling lenz law. (even though does not accelarates)

Loading it
.................................................. ......................

I reapetedly have said that if you apply a load to a accellarating or just barely decellarating coil, then decellaration kicks in in a hard mode (Lenz's Ghost ). The coils manifest their full accelaration effects when shorted and the oscillating current goes unimpeded or just near to it.

A serious resistive load that will half the shorted oscillating current (according my experiments) results in a brutal decellaration.
Till now all my loads were 12v lead acid batteries powered by the coils via a FWBR.

Even the coils that manifested accelaration, when employed in this configuration they would decellarete to a dead stop.
for example my first 75 ohms HV accelarating coil outputed 110vac and a current (shorted) 130 mA. When used the FWBR and a single battery to charge it was barely if at all accelarating. Thus giving 0,110 (drop) x 12,5 volts = some 1,3 watts energy stores losses include. If i arranged 2 x 12volt batteries in series then decellaration kicked in and rotor full stop.

But, in bifillar coil, the 12 volt battery was charged 0,250 A or some 2,5 watts (drop from 0,3 shorted) and rotor did not go below 1000 rpm, no matter what.

Bottom line, bifilar wire coils parallel connected have better load handling capability (thus maintaining accellaration effects) than single wound coils.

More experiments on this pending


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Baroutologos
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Old 06-17-2009, 09:14 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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From others with experience on this matter an usufull hint is:

* If one coil failed to achieved accelaration at a given rotor speed (+all other factors), by series connecting two or more of them (same specs, same phase) accelaration can start (see FEG, Kromrey etc) Oscillating current stays same, voltage doubles (for 2) etc

Now, you know what i know so far.


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Baroutologos
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  #82  
Old 06-18-2009, 01:56 PM
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[QUOTE=wrtner;57317]
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
I am not sure about applicability to the FEG, but an interesting
series of high torque magnet motors is the Lynch Etek range
made by the electric branch of Briggs & Stratton.
I got this wrong. For high power permananent magnet motors:
L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors - Lynch Motor Company Ltd
Paul.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:28 PM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Ok, after the SSG powered FEG fiasko i decide to move on.
To permanent magnet dc motor operated in a pulsed mode.

Has anyone any experience about permanent magnet motors operated in pulsed mode?? Are they free wheeling unpowered?

Do they sustain (almost) their rpm while being pulsed? Is pulsing them of any good for matching mechanical load to efficiency? (assuming pulse power and can be modulated)


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Baroutologos
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Old 06-27-2009, 06:30 PM
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At last today I had time to spend on my machine. 4 coils with about 400 turns in series with a lot of electrolytic caps in series to the value of about 10 uf.
I drive the motor with 2 x 12v batteries pulsed with a relay from a adjustable 555 timer circuit
When the motor are at max speed the output of the coils are about 12v ac. With the resonant caps in parallel the ac voltage are around 120v! Connected through a bridge rectifier to a 470uf 400v cap the dc voltage climb to 120v in about a second.
I switched that back to the battery with the same relay the way it is described .
To make a long story short, it still does not work!
I still plan to build a diode plug circuit to prevent the the killing of the resonance every time I switch but that will take some time
So I decided to try to short the coils on the peak of the sine wave (codies way)
It will take a while to construct Will report later .
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Old 06-27-2009, 07:01 PM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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good work Nvisser!

Learn from mistakes and proceed. I had some experience with caps in parallel. It actually some boosted one coil's voltage by a factor of 4 and current about double, but created serious drag when doing this.

...The one who searches... finds

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Baroutologos
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Old 06-28-2009, 09:15 AM
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Yes it does create a lot of drag the moment it hits resonance
Does not really make sense because in theory when you supply a parallel resonant circuit (tank) it becomes high impedance at resonance and only draws a little current to keep it oscillating. That indeed does not work that way in a generator coil where a magnet is used
Now this finding is not what Peter Linderman states.
Quote:
In the Watson machine threat , Peter lindermann states:
"The pulsed alternator will give you a nice high voltage if the cap is adjusted for resonance at the operating speed (note the current meter in John's schematic). This will indeed reduce the lenz drag since less current is being drawn from the magnets. This is the most efficient way to extract energy from an alternator. This is commonly done on SSG setups to extract extra energy from the wheel using an extra generator coil, although a cap is generally not employed."

Very confusing!
Maybe I have to only insert the resonant cap (10uf) after the bridge and not use the big 470uf cap?
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Old 06-28-2009, 12:47 PM
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Listening to anyone is not good at all.

By the way i do not think FEG works on resonance. If it did, we can supply energy from a frequency generator, create some resonance and extract energy out of it. I don't thinks its the case.

In conventional physics (and true to my view) resonance helps at storing energy in a system and give it all at once in a moment "amplified".
.................................................. .........

By the way, just in our case a cap after FWR bridge helps at storing and smoothing output.

Again Mr Vissie in case you want to experience accelaration under load you should follow Mr T's (OU forum) advices.

.................................................. ........

What kind of input consumption you have that way (pulsed in 24volt permanent magnet (?) motor) and rpm you hit?

Regards,
Baroutologos
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:04 PM
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It is a bit difficult to measure input current to the motor when pulsing so slowly.
With 24v supplied constant to the motor I measured about 1.6A and I think it was running @ 210Hz. With 8 magnets that gives you 1575rpm
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:15 AM
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Hello Vissie,

I have my PMDC (scooter motor - as tjnlsn255 suggested ) received. I proceed to machining. The coupling of motor-shaft will be done via a small belt. I do not consider losses will be much this way.

Motor is a Unite MY1012 model, run at 24volts 200watts. I am planning to see how will run my rotor as well as i going to drive it in a pulse mode. Either with a 555timer circuit or just straight to an SSG circuit. we see..

A flywheel of at least 10kgr will be added to the shaft (cogging torque and pulsing smoothing). Rotor will be machined to fit another 6 magnets, of opposing polarity this time (total 12)

Coils are on their way. Silicon steel laminated, extra thin, low hysteresis, high saturations - high quality audio coils (instead of the pathetic iron wires core) in two shapes. One relatively short and one elongated.

I think next week i will be operational again

Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: By the way, i am not yet conviced IF this PMDC motor freewheels (unshorted). If not, it will be a waste of effort and money
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Last edited by baroutologos; 07-02-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 07-03-2009, 07:25 AM
baroutologos baroutologos is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 586
Ok, 5 minutes of experimentation with the PMDC motor....

The Unite M1012 PMDC motor (200 watts @ 24volts - 3000 rpm) when free wheeling it manifests a considerable slow down effect. I do not know if it is due to any internal short or just due to the cogging torque effect of that neos for the field.

Anyway, it runs some 0.8 amps at freewheel alone. Its torque is good enough for my application. it takes for free wheeling some 15 watts. (Bedini used only 12 watts for his operational FEG with 6 coils in phase!!! - ie maximum cogging torque)

Mr Lindemman is right here. The optimum FEG driver perhaps is an shunt wound series connected dc motor (starter motor) since freewheels happily.
Anyway, my motors specs state that is quite efficient when operating under some load (72% +) so i am not concerned much now about motor saving.

ALso i have in mind the pulsed mode. This way efficiency should increased a bit in the low torque region and BEMF utilization will help. Anyway good luck needed!

Regards,
Baroutologos

ps: coils arrived! tests and pics coming...
ps2: vissie keep going man
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