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John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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  #1  
Old 03-28-2009, 07:59 PM
jonnydavro jonnydavro is offline
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One magnet no bearing Bedini motor

Hi.I saw a video on utube recently off a Bedini motor that only used 1 magnet and found it interesting so here is my version.
It is a standard Bedini circuit with a bifilar coil and core.The coil sits upright and i place a platic lid from a coffee jar on top.For a rotor i use one off those crazy magnets which are usually sold in pairs and make a loud noise when they attract each other.I have had the motor running today on 3 depleated 1,5v batteries which gave me 4.2v and once its going you can knock it down to 2 batteries.The combined voltage off my 2 batteries was 2.6v and it will start on 2 good ones.It will use 30mA on 3 batteries and and 17mA on 2.
This motor spins really fast at this low voltage and i have also run it off my joule thief and small solar panel and i even tried it on a 12v car battery and it sounded like a jet engine so i am going to stay with low voltage for the moment.
It will charge batteries but i have no imformation for you on this yet as i have been playing with it all day and having fun,it would make a really neat toy.
Here are some pictures off it and a video.
Regards jonnydavro
YouTube - One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg onemag Bedini 1.jpg (57.3 KB, 411 views)
File Type: jpg onemag Bedini 2.jpg (54.2 KB, 343 views)
File Type: jpg onemag Bedini 3.jpg (82.9 KB, 334 views)
File Type: jpg OnemagBedini with recovery.jpg (33.9 KB, 599 views)
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  #2  
Old 03-28-2009, 08:17 PM
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Sephiroth Sephiroth is offline
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Very cool

Reminds me of this patent

NOVELTY ELECTRIC MOTOR - Google Patents

I forget why I know about this patent, lol...
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Old 03-28-2009, 08:58 PM
jonnydavro jonnydavro is offline
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Hi Sephiroth,Thanks. That patent does look like it bar the charging so it seems i have created a novelty charger lol.Seriously though the rotor magnet is quite a strong magnet and its throughing its field about so there might be a further recovery option there but at the moment i am having to much fun to try but when the novelty wears off Regards jonnydavro
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:06 PM
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That's pretty cool..
Thanks for posting it.
ww
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Old 04-03-2009, 04:19 PM
jonnydavro jonnydavro is offline
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Hi, just an update.I have added a couple off pickup coils to recover some energy.I have some more coils so i will try adding them aswell.I just wanted to see if the spinning magnet would maintain it steady position in the presence off the pickup coils and it does.One other thing. Some thing i found interesting is i have quite a few off these crazy magnets and most off them have a slightly angular rotation around the vertical but i have one which spins completly upright.Out off the two,the angular rotation ones seem better for use with the pickup coils also this motor will run on a 1.5v battery at 6mA.This seems very low consumption.Does any one know off a really small solar cell that would power this?I have a 2.4 watt but that is overkill,there must be tiny ones which i could use hopefully. Anyway here is a vid off my motor with pickup's.Regards jonnydavro.
YouTube - One magnet no bearing Bedini motor vid 2
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Old 04-03-2009, 09:31 PM
Xenomorph Xenomorph is offline
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Wow

I can`t stop being impressed by that. I have seen similar things with moving cores before. If the presence of pick-up coils doesn`t interfere with the "magnet-dance" then nobody can prevent you from buidling a whole DOME of pickup coils around the dancefloor. That would yield in phenomenal charging never seen before for only 8mA input !!! (Judging from the charging speed of the 9v battery in your video)
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Old 04-03-2009, 10:22 PM
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As I posted on your video...

If you had a small jar, and was able to create a vacuum with it I bet you could really make that baby spin. And say add some good lubricant at the bottom..

Great work!
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Old 04-04-2009, 12:14 AM
jonnydavro jonnydavro is offline
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@xenomorph. Hi .The motor was using 30mA during this test and the meter was showing recovered voltage held in caps.My camera does not have a very good frame rate and i think it gives the impresion that the magnet is jumping everywhere but it is not,it spins nice and stable but as it is rotating at a slight angle to the verticle combined with the frame rate it gives that impression.I will try it with 4 pickup coils next working up to maybe 8 around the circumference.If it is still spinning ok i will try your dome idea.It seems it is best to add pickups in pairs as it seems to be ballancing act.Also you can't recover as much voltage as you can from a fixed rotor as you are restricted to how close you can place the coils due to the fact that i don't want to interfere with the rotor.The 6mA input i refered to was for the just the motor spinning with no pickups,using the verticle spinning crazy mag.I was thinking about maybe taking a leaf out off lidmotors book and boxing so to speak the 6mA motor and have it run in my window with a small solar cell involved somehow.Anyhow thanks for the great suggestion.
@theremart. Air is certainly responsible for decreasing the efficiency so running it in a vacuum like you suggest would be good especially if it was a start it up, apply the vacuem and forget about it senario.At the moment though it is probably beyond my abilities to create a stable airtight version There is not a lot off contact between the magnet and the coffee jar lid so i don't think there is a lot off friction there although there will be some.Thanks for your suggestion's,they are most welcome,regards jonnydavro
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Old 04-04-2009, 03:27 PM
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Was thinking about this some more...

One could make a top Bedini with this concept.... I think back to Peters video about motors and they had a design where the top would spin for months with a similar design....

interesting concept...
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:09 PM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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"those crazy magnets" are made of HEMATITE which is Antiferromagnetic.
Known as the novelty item: Rattle Snake Eggs.
The shape is ellipsoidal

SNAKEEGGS ~ Powerful Ellipsoidal Hematite Magnetic noisemaker toy.

You can't ask for much less friction than rolling friction.
The only moving part would wear out evenly, meaning No parts to wear out?
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:03 PM
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Reminds me of Tesla's Egg.

YouTube - Nikola Tesla - Columbus Egg - 1893 Chicago

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Old 04-07-2009, 10:00 PM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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Originally Posted by sigzidfit View Post
Reminds me of Tesla's Egg.

YouTube - Nikola Tesla - Columbus Egg - 1893 Chicago

Peace
PJ
I do not wish to evaluate Tesla's Egg or understand it, a brief description is found here
which causes a "rotating magnetic field".

I want to understand jonnydavro's observations.
How does this coil become a "rotating magnetic field"?
Is the answer here, all magnetic fields rotate?
Is the rotation due to surge and collapse of the magnetic field?

Wondering
Randy
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Old 04-08-2009, 12:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
I do not wish to evaluate Tesla's Egg or understand it, a brief description is found here
which causes a "rotating magnetic field".

I want to understand jonnydavro's observations.
How does this coil become a "rotating magnetic field"?
Is the answer here, all magnetic fields rotate?
Is the rotation due to surge and collapse of the magnetic field?

Wondering
Randy
I can't say bro. I just thought they appeared to be similar. I'm a sight triggered animal.

Peace
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:48 AM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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Originally Posted by sigzidfit View Post
I can't say bro. I just thought they appeared to be similar. I'm a sight triggered animal.

Peace
PJ
Yep, Yep, understand that. Been there and done that kind of thing myself.
I read how the Tesla egg worked, which has to bring the question ..
Where's the rotation coming from in jonnydavro's experiment?
How is the magnetic field being rotated?
Tesla's device is a toroid coil with FOUR windings ..
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Old 04-08-2009, 02:55 PM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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I still don't understand what is causing the magnetic field to rotate.

Some more interesting things.
The "those crazy magnets" are made of HEMATITE which is Antiferromagnetic. So it isn't Hematite or it isn't a magnet.


If it is Antiferromagnetic how is it a magnet..
it's known to happen spontaneously but weakly so.
I don't know what these magnets are made of.

Quote:
Theory of interplay between antiferromagnetism and superconductivity
We investigate the interplay between antiferromagnetism and superconductivity for singlet Cooper pairs in a simple cubic lattice. The Landau expansion of the antiferromagnetic part in the free energy is made up to the fourth order of magnetic order parameters. The coupling term between antiferromagnetism and superconductivity in the free energy is investigated with the generalized spin susceptibility (the generalized Yosida function).
Quote:
Source
Due to the evident proximity of superconductivity to antiferromagnetism and the Mott transition, we suggest that the system may be an analog of the electron-doped cuprates, where antiferromagnetism and superconductivity coexist.

Diamagnetism,
Paramagnetism, Ferromagnetism, Antiferromagnetism

From a non-quantum perspective, there are only two ways to produce magnetic fields: using electric currents and having time-varying electric fields. Electric fields inside matter generally dont vary in time with high enough frequencies to make their contributions to the magnetic properties of matter all that important, so electric currents are the main cause for matters magnetic properties, other than quantum effects. The primary quantum cause of magnetism is spin.

More detail link about magnetism, Diamagnetism,
Paramagnetism, Ferromagnetism, Antiferromagnetism


Magnetic Hematite Magnets
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Last edited by Vortex; 04-08-2009 at 05:38 PM. Reason: bad proof reading
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  #16  
Old 04-10-2009, 08:33 PM
Xenomorph Xenomorph is offline
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One Magnet Bedini Motor Replication

YouTube - One Magnet Bedini Motor

After making the video i realized that Jonny deliberately uses the tumbling magnets because he found that they charge the batteries better, and it was not intended to critize the tumbling magnet.

I also tried to position a smaller pickup coil (with welding rod core) next to the magnet, but if the magnet gets too close it seem to be attracted by the steel in the pickupcoils core and bump into it. So maybe by using 2 oppositely positioned pickup coils, that effect could be nullified somehow, i am not sure.
Or the pickup-coil must have much less core material, so less attraction occurs.

That would be my question to jonnydavro.
How did you do the pickup-coils? Do they have a core?
(Looks like they just sit on a screw in your video)

Anyway, this is really fun and does some nice charging.
So i can encourage people to build it, it is comparatively easy especially
if you already have a Bedini coil from previous motor builds.

Have fun ,
Xenomorph
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Last edited by Xenomorph; 04-10-2009 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 04-11-2009, 12:17 AM
jonnydavro jonnydavro is offline
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@Xenomorph.Fantastic Thankyou so much for taking the time and effort to replicate.
In answer to your questions regarding the pickup coils,first the construction.They are made from 38swg wire wound onto some brass spools i don't know how many turns i just filled them.For a core i am using a small steel bolt.You can see them in the pic i have posted off some tests i was doing today with a nonmagnetic concave metal lid.The reason i was using this concave lid was to alliviate the same problem that you have come accross with the verticle spinning magnet and it works so go concave with the verticle magnet.It will still go round in a circle and pass close to the pickups but with careful adjustment they will not touch.That is why i have used the bolts as cores so i can screw them in or out for adjustment.I do not envisage any problem running the 8 pickup coils i have made for this motor following mytests today with all core's in place(see pic).I also think you could run as many aircore coils as you could get near it.I am just waiting for the postman to bring me some more bridge rectifiers.
I do not have this problem with the angular spinning magnet as you can see in my video.with the angular magnet it's position is completly stable in the presence off the pickups but like you suspected its a ballancing act so add coils in pairs.I think the rpm's may be higher with the verticle magnet,i had my meter set on hz today and it was over 300hz so we really need a scope on this to find out what is going on.
I have got my motor spinning unbelievably fast on 4.5v 13mA.To get this low draw i did the following.
1.Put a 12v relays coil in series with the trigger resistors.This was seph's idea and i use it on all my motors.Everyone who has a bedini should try this mod. Thanks Sephiroth.(you can see this relay in the pic)
2.Trigger resistance.Standard Bedini 1k pot,100 ohm resistor and i added a 100k pot.Leave the 1k pot on 0 ohms and Turn the 100k or whatever large value pot you use only till you get the fastest and least current draw and then measure 100k pot resitance and replace with some thing 5k bigger than measured resistance.Mine worked out at 5680ohms so i changed the 100k for a 10kpot.
3.For higher rpm's.Try different types off plastic lids.I find the clear thin type placed on top off the white lid increase rpm.I think the platic is self lubricating.Hope this Helps and thanks again.If i can be off anymore help just ask.Regards jonnydavro.
@Vortex.Thankyou for looking into the makeup of these magnets.What you found is very interesting but i suspect they may be made from magnetite which is pysically and chemicaly almost identical to Hematite,both being a mineral off iron.It would be interesting to find out for sure though.Many thanks jonnydavro
@ All. Here are some pics off the magnet pole orientation on these crazy magnets.Regards jonnydavro.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg compass1.jpg (96.2 KB, 151 views)
File Type: jpg compass2.jpg (104.8 KB, 109 views)
File Type: jpg compass3.jpg (89.3 KB, 105 views)
File Type: jpg compass4.jpg (84.4 KB, 91 views)
File Type: jpg concave onemag.jpg (84.3 KB, 220 views)
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:11 AM
Ted Ewert Ted Ewert is offline
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Great idea, very cool.

Why don't you guys use air core pick-up coils? Wind them wide and shallow (more like a puck shape) and you can get them much closer to the magnet.
Remember though, when you induce current into a coil, it becomes a magnet, with or without an iron core. Nevertheless, air cores should work much better for this application.



Ted
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:02 AM
Xenomorph Xenomorph is offline
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@Jonnydavro:
CONCAVE lid !!! Great Idea, that keeps the magnet in the middle !!!
Now i have to check my supermarket for lids with that shape hehe.
Thanks for explaining the pickup-coils.
I will try to get the necessary material tomorrow to make some.
Brass spools? I have something like that, it is actually some kind of anchor bolt or screw anchor
that is made of brass for difficult/porous walls.



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Last edited by Xenomorph; 04-11-2009 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:16 PM
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Hey Guys,

Have you tried to use a small glass bowl instead of plastic? Seems like a harder material would have less resistance. I built a small Bedini using a small gyro scope and it spins around 3500rpm with 12 volts .040 amps. The gyro scope doesn't have any bearings it rides on 2 points with a concave screw on each end. Maybe you could use a small bolt in the center of you coil core that has a concave end to hold the magnet in the middle depending on how pointed the end of the magnet is. Or fasten a pin on the end of it?
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenomorph View Post
@Jonnydavro:
CONCAVE lid !!! Great Idea, that keeps the magnet in the middle !!!
Now i have to check my supermarket for lids with that shape hehe.
Thanks for explaining the pickup-coils.
I will try to get the necessary material tomorrow to make some.
Brass spools? I have something like that, it is actually some kind of anchor bolt or screw anchor
that is made of brass for difficult/porous walls.



Check out the patent I posted earlier... it is exactly the same principle except it doesn't capture the flyback.

@mart

THATS where I found the patent! Cheers! Couldn't remember where I saw it before!

@vortex

I don't think the solenoids field is rotating. The magnet spins the way it does for exactly the same reasons a standard rotor does. It's just a matter of timing the pulse to maintain momentum.
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Old 04-11-2009, 03:28 PM
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This is the device in the patent fig.1.

Top Secret - Perpetual Spinning Top - InnovaToys

check out the flash demo to see it operating. should give you a few ideas for construction
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Old 04-11-2009, 09:17 PM
Xenomorph Xenomorph is offline
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I used the relay coil now and a 10k pot like jonny pointed out and the amp draw really went down significantly to something like 25milliAmps !!!!!!!! And this at 12 Volt source battery voltage.

However the thing behaves now quite differently, it seems to speed up more and more and the bedini coil is singing silently.Also the magnet seems to be pushed away from the center too forcefully that it finds itself at the edges constantly.

I assume some kind of resonance phenomenon has been introduced between the relay coil and the bedini coil.
It may be attributed to that effect that the amp draw went down.
Gotoluc has similar results in his resonance thread currently.
If i can stabilize the whole thing at 25 mA then this is a killer battery charger, i still can`t believe it.
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Old 04-11-2009, 10:35 PM
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I believe the relay coil has several effects on the circuit that reduces current draw. On a motor-type charger it allows you to reduce the pulse width beyond what can be achieved with a standard configuration by delaying the following pulse to a point past the scalar south so the coil can not fire a second time. For example a motor that normally runs on double pulses per magnet pass can run on a single pulse.

Another effect is that it reduces the energy lost in the triggering circuit by restricting current.

Remember that when the coil is energising current is flowing in the opposite direction through the trigger coil... This creates a counter magnetic field that reduces the overall strength of the magnetic field formed by the stator. By reducing the current flowing through the trigger coil, we are increasing the strength of the coils magnetic field for the same amount of input power. I believe this is why we are able to achieve higher rpm for less current draw.

You're right... there is also a resonance effect but I am not sure if it benefits charging.

If your coil is ringing then it sounds like it has gone into resonance but I think this is more likely to be because of the higher resistance than the added inductance.

If you haven't seen them, these are the original videos of the trigger choke

YouTube - Beneficial Modification of the Bedini SSG?

YouTube - Bedini Trigger Choke Comparison - RPM & AMPS & STROBE
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:01 PM
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Pick up test

My first pickup coil didnt deliver much of an output. Maximum 0.15 Volt and the charge didnt stay on the cap because it is just too low.
I have used 10 layers of 0.2 mm copper wire on a stainless steel screw (core) and a brass anchor as the spool. I went straight into a bridge rectifier then into the cap.
I wonder how jonny managed to charge batteries with 2 pickup coils?

Possible improvement could be really to limit the area that the magnet moves in, so the induced voltage is more coherent.
Maybe i need much more turns on the coil?

YouTube - pickupattempt

@Sephiroth : Thanks for the links, your videos are cool !
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Old 04-12-2009, 08:11 PM
jonnydavro jonnydavro is offline
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@Ted Ewert.Thankyou for your suggestion.I have tried aircore and may go that way as it seems you could place as many as you could fit round the magnet but you would have to use quite a few because of the reduced output.Thankyou for your help.
@Mark thanks for your suggestions.Its the little piece's that finish the puzzle.
@sephiroth. Regarding the benefits off adding the relay coil to the trigger circuit.I have noticed three things.Firstly the reduced amp draw.This mod is the quickest way i have seen to at least half amp draw if not more.Everyone who has a bedini motor should try this like i stated earlier.
Second.When running this motor at low voltage low amps,if i disconected my charge battery without the relay in the trigger circuit the neon did not light.I then add the relay and for the same amp draw and voltage the neon lights.This tells me i am getting high spikes at a lower ampdraw with the relay.
Thirdly.There is the recovery of the bemf from the relay coil.You may already know all off the above but others may benefit from this imformation.
I think you mentioned that you were trying to see if you could get a relay to operate in the trigger circuit when you made this discovery but i don't know if you managed to do it but i have a motor which does exactly that.I am thinking about using it to send its own bemf back to the run battery.But thats another story.Thanks for sharing your mod
@Xeenomorph.Great job on getting the amp draw down.I see that you have noticed that the benefit off those mods is an increase in rpm.If you had a magnet that spins at an angle it would remain stable in position and perfers to spin on the flat not concave lid,but you have a verticle spinning magnet so to bring it into control i would try dropping the voltage by using three 1.5v batteries.If it is still spinning like mad try 2.I have had mine running on one but 4.5v seems like a good starting point.It still spins at high rpm at this voltage but it may help.Also the concave lid would help.Another way is to make a stand like i have and put the amount off cores you are going to use in and the drag that these core's create will slow your magnet and inhibit its movement.
Regarding pickup coils.We need a pickup coil that everyone can make or acquire from a relay coil or build to a set spec.The one's i have made are not reproducible as the spindles i used came with an antique sewing machine i am going to convert to a coil winder so we need some help with the coils.I have seen your latest video and i think part off the problem is you have not got a captive audience so to speak but you will Also is the bolt you are using magnetic?If the magnet bumps into my coil it capture's over 3v so we need help here.Anybody got any suggestions?
Anyway the fact your magnet is moving around on your top,we can use to our advantage.I don't know if you noticed but while its wandering around,it moves in and out off the magnetic field and so your ampmeter should go to zero when its not triggering.This give's us an oportunity to feed back to sorce.I had a little play and this is what i did.I removed the charge battery and connected a 2200uf cap to the positive charge battery lead.I connected the negative off the cap to the negative off the run battery.I left the negative charge lead disconnected.I then put an analogue ampmeter from the positive off the cap to the positive off the run battery.I did not use a diode as it seemed i got higher feedback without one.If you get a chance,try it but keep an eye on the voltage in the cap as it climbs quick if you don't have it connected to the run battery.Is what i found was the run battery voltage didn't drop for the duration off the test which was about 40 minutes..I was using 2 1.5v batteries for this test.I will go back to this later in the week when i get some time off work.Regards jonnydavro
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:30 PM
Xenomorph Xenomorph is offline
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Thanks jonnydavro,
i guess the bolts were not good enough.
I am using the copper coated welding rods as a core for the pickup coil and now i am seeing much higher voltages, like you said if the magnet bumps into the coil it can jump to 2-3 volt. I will make more of those and connect them in serial.

How would i manage to keep the charge on the cap? As it is now, it drops pretty much instantly.
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnydavro View Post
@sephiroth. Regarding the benefits off adding the relay coil to the trigger circuit.I have noticed three things.Firstly the reduced amp draw.This mod is the quickest way i have seen to at least half amp draw if not more.Everyone who has a bedini motor should try this like i stated earlier.
Second.When running this motor at low voltage low amps,if i disconected my charge battery without the relay in the trigger circuit the neon did not light.I then add the relay and for the same amp draw and voltage the neon lights.This tells me i am getting high spikes at a lower ampdraw with the relay.
Glad it works for you! It doesn't seem to work for everyone. Mart is the only other person I know of that has reported the same effects.

The neon's effect is interesting and it makes sense. If the current is restricted in the trigger circuit then there will be a higher potential build up in the primary circuit and this will be more noticeable with lower amp draw. I haven't noticed it so thanks for sharing!

Are you using a 12v relay? I was never able to get the relay to close using just the trigger coil but I only tried 6v relay coils.
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:46 PM
jonnydavro jonnydavro is offline
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@Xenomorph.Could be a leaky cap,swap it and see.Thats good news on your pickups,sounds like they are similar to mine now.I forgot to mention before,Try to recover some bemf from your relay coil.Regards jonnydavro
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:55 PM
jonnydavro jonnydavro is offline
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@Sephiroth.The relay in this motor is a 12v relay but i get the same results with a 6v.The relay in the motor where the relay operates is a 6v relay.Regards jonnydavro
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