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John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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  #481  
Old 03-30-2008, 04:49 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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RE: video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
Made another video demonstrating the trigger choke with a strobe. It also shows amp draw and rpm as it is accelerating.

Comparison with and without the choke, as well as adding another choke in series just to show what happens.

YouTube - Bedini Trigger Choke Comparison - RPM & AMPS & STROBE

Sorry it is so quiet... had to use a different camera...
Watched the video, VERY nicely done with the split screen.

I now see that you are counting the lines on the rotor to determine the number of pulses. what did you use for marking the lines? I am thinking of taping a black paper on top of my rotor to find get the number of pulses mine is using.

I am thinking we have a target of getting the most charge for the least amount of energy being pulled from the primary battery.

Suggestion for testing this.

We pull a battery down to a resting voltage of say 12.5 V Then we test given a 2 hour period for a given pulse method. We then load the battery with a given load and bring it back down to the 12.5 point. Then we do the same with another pulse etc.... I am thinking that we should be able to see a pattern emerging of which is the best charging method.


The trouble can be if we are using sulfated batteries, this can really mess up our results.

Since I have added the VX additive to my batteries, 5 of the batteries no longer charge back up to same levels they were before However, the others are doing fine, they are consistant and are charging very well. With these I may experiment with the choke, and the Radiant soup method. I was considering aluminum foil....

Thanks for the video, it helped me to understand the led method more clearly.

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  #482  
Old 03-30-2008, 05:06 PM
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I put a disc of black card on top of the rotor then marked it with a white pen (tipex / white-out would be good)

I agree that it is time to start doing controlled load tests... I just got 4 brand new identical 24ah batteries for the job. In the process of conditioning them but load testing is the next thing on my to do list

I have a theory why I can achieve shorter pulses. I think there are two trigger signals leaving the trigger coil even when it is pulsing only once (with the choke) but the second signal is delayed for so long that the incoming magnet cuts it off before it reaches the transistor. if the choke is omitted then both those signals would reach the transistor and it would produce 2 short pulses of equal length to the single pulse I get with the choke. Still don't know why it is faster compared to the amp draw though
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  #483  
Old 03-30-2008, 07:51 PM
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linesrg most of us have built ones to spec. I have, down to the rods and mljs etc. The beauty of experiment is the learning process it provokes

"Adjust the base resistance to the absolute lowest value you can get it and then replace it with a fixed resistor."

I find I get less amp draw with higher values of resistance.

by the way guys. The trifilar I have built eats car batteries for breakfast 500 ma input 95 ma output.
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Last edited by ren; 03-30-2008 at 07:58 PM.
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  #484  
Old 03-30-2008, 09:32 PM
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indeed tune for highest resistance

ren,

You're quite correct the highest resistance you can get - bit of a blonde moment there.

Guys when carrying out load tests be aware initial results can be misleading. In some cases repeated identical tests over a fortnight can produce very different results to the first one.

Regards

Richard
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  #485  
Old 03-30-2008, 09:44 PM
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Magnetically biased core

Good Evening All,

A few posts back somebody suggested that they didn't think biasing a core was a good idea.

One of Bedini's patents (6392370) actually has a permanent magnet attached to the cores.

Additionally interesting results were reported by Emmett Butler with a solid state SG using a magnet at either end of the core.

From a simplistic point of view if the core is mildly biased then you overcome the inertia involved in establishing the field from cold is how I see it.

Some few years back somebody was kicking the idea round of placing a magnet on the back end of an SG coil.

I haven't tried any of these things myself.

Regards

Richard
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  #486  
Old 03-30-2008, 11:00 PM
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I'm sure there has been a discussion somewhere about using magnetized cores in these motors... can't find the thread Im thinking of but here is a little something I found from Peter

Quote:
If your core material retains some of its magnetic field, that characteristic is going to slow down the magnetic field collapse and reduce the amount of energy the return pulse can produce.
from -> Electric Motor Secrets
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  #487  
Old 03-31-2008, 01:09 AM
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For those who want to try biasing a core ... this might work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by linesrg View Post
Good Evening All,

A few posts back somebody suggested that they didn't think biasing a core was a good idea.

I suppose what I am thinking about would turn a normal core slightly magnetic?

If I wanted to try and bias a core if iron or steel ( like a bolt ) I would heat it up red hot ( no windings please ) and attach a magnet to the bottom and allow it to cool as slow as possible ( like in a box of dry fine sand ). To make it even stronger attach magnets to both ends and place a "C" clamp of steel to conduct magnetism.

Just a thought?

Dodeca
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  #488  
Old 03-31-2008, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dodeca View Post
I suppose what I am thinking about would turn a normal core slightly magnetic?

If I wanted to try and bias a core if iron or steel ( like a bolt ) I would heat it up red hot ( no windings please ) and attach a magnet to the bottom and allow it to cool as slow as possible ( like in a box of dry fine sand ). To make it even stronger attach magnets to both ends and place a "C" clamp of steel to conduct magnetism.

Just a thought?

Dodeca
If you try that don't use Neo's neo's can be destroyed with heat.

Annealing ( which gets rid of magnetism in a object ) sound like what you are doing with the heat. ) I am not sure what you believe the heat will gain you with the bolt. But sounds like an interesting idea.

mart
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  #489  
Old 04-01-2008, 03:27 AM
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very nice video Sep.

To further your research on lowering input amperage, here is an interesting result from my testing. I don't have proper measuring equipment so I'm not sure if this is a real result but maybe someone with better gear can check it out.

I was running a standard setup (except using 14.4v cordless drill nicads) and had a second battery hooked up in parallel to the supply. Startup ohms were 635. Once running steady, I placed a connection from the charging battery (-) ONLY to the second supply battery (+). My current draw immediately dropped by a factor of 10 from 200ma to 20ma. Rpm dropped only slightly (I have no tach yet to provide exact amout.) Interestingly, charge volts immediately increased from 16.67 to 17.22.
Nothing fried or even warmed up. The system ran smoothly at a steady 20ma draw for 6 hrs. all the while showing the higheest charge voltages I have recorded to date. It would be great if this turned out to be a method to redirect some of the charge voltage back to supply, but some of you with better gear will have to confirm this experiment. I did note that it is harder to tune the pot to find the sweet spot under these conditions. Much larger changes to resistance are necessary to show any movement in the amp draw or rpm under these conditions.

Good luck
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  #490  
Old 04-01-2008, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el-tigre View Post
very nice video Sep.

To further your research on lowering input amperage, here is an interesting result from my testing. I don't have proper measuring equipment so I'm not sure if this is a real result but maybe someone with better gear can check it out.

I was running a standard setup (except using 14.4v cordless drill nicads) and had a second battery hooked up in parallel to the supply. Startup ohms were 635. Once running steady, I placed a connection from the charging battery (-) ONLY to the second supply battery (+). My current draw immediately dropped by a factor of 10 from 200ma to 20ma. Rpm dropped only slightly (I have no tach yet to provide exact amout.) Interestingly, charge volts immediately increased from 16.67 to 17.22.
Nothing fried or even warmed up. The system ran smoothly at a steady 20ma draw for 6 hrs. all the while showing the higheest charge voltages I have recorded to date. It would be great if this turned out to be a method to redirect some of the charge voltage back to supply, but some of you with better gear will have to confirm this experiment. I did note that it is harder to tune the pot to find the sweet spot under these conditions. Much larger changes to resistance are necessary to show any movement in the amp draw or rpm under these conditions.

Good luck
That is a really interesting effect! Could you post a schematic showing how you wired the batteries please?
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  #491  
Old 04-01-2008, 08:59 AM
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By the way guys, new vid here: YouTube - amps in VS amps out

Comparison of amps in vs amps out. Enjoy.
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Last edited by ren; 04-01-2008 at 10:34 AM.
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  #492  
Old 04-01-2008, 03:12 PM
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Hi Sep,

Here is the schematic for the variant. Hope you can decipher it ok for test purposes. Just let me know if it is not understandable.

link... [url]www.egroup2.com/Everett-Variant-Schematic.jpg

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  #493  
Old 04-01-2008, 03:39 PM
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??? isn't the negative of the charging battery connected to the positive of the primary anyway?
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  #494  
Old 04-01-2008, 04:02 PM
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Yes it is,

None the less, I am still showing the results posted earlier??? Perhaps the second input batt wired in parellel has something to do with the results? I have no logical explanation or even a hypothesis, at this time.
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  #495  
Old 04-01-2008, 06:41 PM
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RE: variant.

hmmm Maybee the gauge of wire you are using? maybe you are allowing more thru a bottle neck? might be why the other wire works well, but just a guess.
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  #496  
Old 04-01-2008, 07:13 PM
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I am resetting for another test this evening, I will try to be more specific on the exact startup and operating parameters and will post a couple of Pics of the actual rig for comments by those who have more experience.
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  #497  
Old 04-01-2008, 08:28 PM
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Im sorry if I seem skeptical but I cannot see the difference it would make El-tigre. And 200ma to 20ma is a HUGE drop, the lowest I can run one of my energizers consistently on is 30ma. Perhaps there is something I have over looked.

One question, what are you using to measure current draw? Perhaps it is something specific to Ni-Cads as most of us here havent charged them....
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  #498  
Old 04-01-2008, 09:23 PM
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Hi Ren, Don't be sorry, be skeptical! This is research!
I couldn't see why this variant would make a difference either, so I am struggling to explain it, it is quite possible I am reading something incorrectly and thanks for your interest...
I am measuring current draw using a standard digital multimeter (GB Instruments GDT 11) I cross checked it with a cheap digital multimeter knockoff and they both read the same. If you refer to post 492, I am measuring amps between the (+) of input battery #1 and the transistor.

Theremart, I doubt wire size has anything to do with this effect as I have tried it with different leads. Maybe it is a Nicad idiosyncracy??
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  #499  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:02 AM
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Hi Testers,

here are some specs and pics for evaluation. Is there something real here?
Can anyone confirm with their apparatus?
(Please refer to post 492 for schematic labelling)

prestart separate readings
volts B1=16.47 B2=16.92 B3(charge)=14.22
810 ohms. (*add 408 ohms to all numbers for hard wired resistor)
when B1 & B2 & B3 connected before rotation B1&B2=16.68, B3=14.40
(without the variant connected)
after stabilizing to full speed rotation B1 & B2=16.02 at 200ma. B3 = 16.30v.
now it gets interesting...
the variant connection is added and the readings after 16 minutes operation are are:
B1 & B2=15.87v at 30ma. B3 = 16.43v.
(60 minutes later B3 is 16.94v) and the amps are still 30ma.
(85 minutes in, B3 reads 17.19v and amps=30ma.
stopped it for ohm reading = 524 restart at same settings no problem)
(about 2.5 hrs in readings are B1 & B2=14.98v at 30ma. B3 = 17.72v).
last observation, when resistance reduced as low as possible, current reading was
50ma and charge voltage reads 18.11 and the rotor keeps on turning...


Please feel free to ask any questions or for any additional readings that
I can take that may help to explain this.

hope the pics work


(It's a 7 neo rotor not 6)

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  #500  
Old 04-02-2008, 04:28 AM
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Ok Heres what you need to do El tigre to confirm your results. Firstly change the battery in your multimeter, I cant be certain, but most models have a little battery icon pop up when it is flat. This can make ALL the difference. Secondly, dont bother reading amp draw with a digital

You need an analogue gauge, it has been suggested to place it in the negative leg of the circuit too. IF an analogue panel meter gives you identical results then your on to something!

Good luck
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  #501  
Old 04-02-2008, 04:30 AM
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Odd

Hi,

This seems odd, because adding a wire from the (-) of the charging battery to the (+) of one of the running batteries, does not alter the Bedini circuit apparently. Are you sure you are doing what you have stated? Can you tell us about the output current in your system?

Your two parallel batteries can be considered as one larger battery if the connections between them are ideal so adding a wire like the way you described doesn't seem to have any effect on the circuit, unless you are using a different type of circuit than Bedini's.

Also note that your amp meter is reading low battery and these meters behave not so very well with low battery.

Elias
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  #502  
Old 04-02-2008, 01:26 PM
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Hip Hip Hurray

I can now swap batteries from my keyboard, or set a threshold voltage for the batteries to swap! At last my 12V power supply came in tonight and after fooling around with it some more, It is working!

Video of the details.
YouTube - Video 31 Battery Swapper Fully operational!
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  #503  
Old 04-02-2008, 06:43 PM
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Well dont Mart! You got there in the end!

el-tigre - Looking at the first image I can't see where you are normally attaching the negative of the charging battery... in the second photo it looks like it is wired the way it normally should so I can't see the difference.

and you say you have confirmed it on two different meters? That's interesting. Though I am a little curious about something you said earlier.

Quote:
The system ran smoothly at a steady 20ma draw for 6 hrs.
Will it only run for 6 hours on 20ma before you have to swap the batteries again? What amp hours are your batteries rated at... if it will only run for 6 hours on 20ma that would make your batteries 0.06 amp hours each!
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  #504  
Old 04-02-2008, 08:18 PM
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If they are off power tools they would be at least 1 amp hour I would think, maybe 2.
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  #505  
Old 04-02-2008, 08:39 PM
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Thanks Elias & Ren,

Here are the results following your suggestions...
1 Change meter battery = same readings
2. Read from supply (-) side = 200ma
3. Read from supply (+) side simultaneously = 200ma
(This is expected no? amps in = amps out less circuit losses = too small to measure)
4. Connect bridge from charge (-) to supply (+)
5. Read amps on supply (-) = 200ma. Amps on supply (+)= 90ma
This is consistent with but a bit higher than my previous readings and it might explain why you
have not replicated my results because if you are reading amps from supply
(-), this effect seems to be readable only on supply (+) side.
(Unexpected, but who ever said these systems behave expectedly)

As for circuit configuration, I am testing standard components assembled per Sepiroth
excellent schematics on youtube. Only exception is 1n4007 diodes throughout and the
dead analogue meter I hacked to hold the parts and provide convenient plugs to tap
for readings so as not to bump aligator clips off of batteries.
I also wired the 400 ohm zero adjust pot from the old meter in series with the 5k ohm
large pot for fine tuning and this works well as you can jiggle out 1-2 ohms adjustments with it.

So now the question is why can we only see it on the supply (+) side and if it really is there,
where is about 50% of the supply (+) amps going when you connect the bridge?

I will try to score a couple of panel meters to see if I can get more accurate amp readings. Any suggestions for mail order suppliers?

Sep, I ran the system for about 6 hrs in the previous post before I deliberately shut it down for the night... (my wife has learned not to let me run experiments unattended... most of the explosions are small and the fires are confined to 1 or 2 rooms at least)

The batteries do not have an AH rating on them, they are the cordless drill (very crappy) type and like all nicads, once they drop below rated voltage their power falls off very rapidly. One I rescued from the scrap bin as it would not hold a charge. It seems to now even though it had been frozen in my garage for the last 8 months. Some internet info seems to say they are 1500mAh. I have not done a full charge to full drain test under both conditions yet.
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  #506  
Old 04-02-2008, 11:40 PM
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Sorry to burst your bubble ...

Well,

It is evident that you only bypass your amp meter. By connecting your so called bridge the current goes more from the bridge than the amp-meter, because of its lower impedance. You should monitor the current passing from your bridge too!

Elias
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  #507  
Old 04-03-2008, 03:24 PM
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Radiant Soup

Last night I tried the soup can experiment. I found that it did indeed cut down on the voltage of the Primary battery, however it severely hampered the charging of the batteries the wheel served more of a motor than a energizer. Less amps were getting to the charging battery. I am not sure if further tuning might of gotten more out of this, but this does show me that metal around the coils does have a major influence on the outcome. I am thinking about the metal in the tables I have been setting my SSG on, wondering hmm has this been a factor too, and why I got different results then as well...

Since I used all of my relays for my battery swapper ( at least the ones that gave me good performance ) I think I will attempt this with some fine bobbin type coils I have... I am wondering if it is something about the relay's construction that does improve performance.

One thing I like about charging batteries in parallel is they are consistently all at the same level. You can swap battery to battery and not have to adjust the SSG as much.

I am now using 12V to charge 36V with the battery swapper. Non stop action

mart
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  #508  
Old 04-04-2008, 12:11 PM
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hi ,

I have found that running the digital meter for amps is unreliable and makes the bedini crcuit run differently and not to is full potential with less current draw .

I tested this using a digital meter in series with the supply and with out a digital meter using a clamp meter .

clamp meter i found was alot better and theres a major difference in current draw readings and bedini performance .

the digital meter like restricts the current in some way ?

I suggest if you can get yourself a clamp meter and measure your current reading again will be better test .

Sam
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  #509  
Old 04-04-2008, 01:06 PM
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RE: Clamp meter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samemf View Post
hi ,

I suggest if you can get yourself a clamp meter and measure your current reading again will be better test .

Sam
I have run into issues with a clamp meter ( at least mine ) it seems to do great for measuring voltages about half an amp, but below that I have found it to error. Analog meters for me seem to be the way to go, it is what John Bedini uses for measuring amps.

my .02
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  #510  
Old 04-04-2008, 10:52 PM
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Clamp Meters

Good Evening All,

Be aware that clamp meters will be greatly affected by the presence of both magnets and the the magnetic fields around the coil(s) so they are not reliable devices.

There is no simple satisfactory way of measuring what is charging the output battery.

Regards

Richard
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