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John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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  #361  
Old 02-25-2008, 03:21 PM
theinventor theinventor is offline
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clear enamel coated copper magnetic wire great price

Hello, I just found out from mcmaster.com that the enamel coated copper magnetic wire is clear, in other words its not red,brown,gold,ect...
Is it still okay to use in the SSG project for the coil?
they told me that that's the coil companies use for motors.

McMaster-Carr
(once there type in the search button magnetic wire)

Type Single-Conductor Wire and Cable
Single-Conductor Wire and Cable Type Magnet Wire
Number of Conductors 1
Conductor Type Solid
Conductor Material Enamel-Coated Copper
Lowest Temperature Range Not Rated
Highest Temperature Range Up to +400° F (+204.4° C)
Temperature Range Up to +392° F (Up to +200° C)
Specifications Met National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) and Underwriters Laboratories (UL)
NEMA Specification 1000 MW-35C and 1000 MW-73C
UL Specification UL Recognized

P.S.
Can anybody give me a model number and a company to buy the correct neon light? and I bought one 1kv 4a is this okay to use in bedini mono pole radiant mechanical oscillator? by the way does anybody know what product number or specs the 400v Triac this oscillator charger uses?

thanks for the help and if its too much I'm sorry.
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  #362  
Old 02-25-2008, 08:23 PM
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Hi inventor.

The wire should be fine as long as it is copper and has a coating. Magnet wire comes in many different colours of coating but they all do the same thing. If you are ok with ebay theres a good source on their who can supply all awg ratings at pretty much any size/length. His handle is "sword and treasure", do a search for magnet wire and he'll pop up.

The neon you are after should be similar to this one. Wiltronics Research Pty Ltd

I would recommend building the monopole sg and studying it before moving onto more advanced models. The triac can be a number of variations, or replaced with scrs or even npns.
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  #363  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:09 AM
theinventor theinventor is offline
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Thanks for the response ren.
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  #364  
Old 02-27-2008, 06:32 PM
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hello people i just finished my hi speed test run

YouTube - Bedini SSG type motor new setup 1e hi speed test run
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  #365  
Old 02-27-2008, 07:02 PM
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nice SG

Cool video! Looks pretty too!
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  #366  
Old 03-08-2008, 12:40 PM
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ok guys...

My Tach finally showed up so I can confirm the speeds and amps with and without the "choke" in the trigger circuit... just for the record I am using 6 magnets on an 8cm diameter rotor....

without the choke, the best sweet spot I can get is drawing 410ma at 2600rpm
so pulsing at about 260 hertz

WITH the choke it is drawing 280ma at 2700rpm...
so pulsing at about 270 hertz

suprised that no one else has posted similar results

since rpm doesn't really mean anything when comparing one motor with another, does anyone else know what frequency their motors are pulsing at? I'm sure that's signifcant.


Aaron - As I said I couldn't get your version of the superpole to work (pretty sure my magnets need to be stronger) but I thought I could get similar results if I just made a standard monopole configuration but with the souths facing out instead of the norths....

getting pretty good results.... no noticable increase in charging the battereis but interesting performance of the motor...

with a normal north pole configuration my coils would vibrate alot if they weren't strapped in....

but with the south pole configuration they hardly vibrate at all... they don't even need to be strapped in... it's like the coils aren't interacting with the rotor magnets at all... that seems like a good thing, no?
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  #367  
Old 03-08-2008, 09:29 PM
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choke winding direction?

Sephiroth,

This is very promising!! Great work! What direction is the choke wound in relation to the trigger winding?
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  #368  
Old 03-09-2008, 01:05 AM
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RE findings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
ok guys...

My Tach finally showed up so I can confirm the speeds and amps with and without the "choke" in the trigger circuit... just for the record I am using 6 magnets on an 8cm diameter rotor....
....
rotor magnets at all... that seems like a good thing, no?
Ok, you got me curious,
what is a choke, as it looks like it sure boosted your results. You are putting it in the trigger section right?

Glad you got a Tach, it sure helps to know fast faster, and BURNING Tires
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  #369  
Old 03-09-2008, 06:40 AM
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choke on the trigger

Mart,

The relay coil is used in series with the trigger circuit.

Trigger wire ---> relay coil in series ---> resistor ---> base of transistor

A "choke" or any coil/inductor used like this builds a magnetic field when power goes through it. The magnetic field builds up and restricts current but still allows the voltage to get through. This is a very bare bones simplified understanding that might not do it justice but that is my basic understanding as I learned it from a different application.

I'm happy to see Sephiroth confirm with a tach that he did get higher RPM...just wondering what direction the turns of the relay coil are going in relation to the trigger wire.
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  #370  
Old 03-09-2008, 07:00 AM
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Good work Sep! I think that you have found another way to restrict the current/voltage in the trigger coil allowing for a faster on off time. I would be interested to see if it affects your charging rate positively. Interesting too that your potentiometer can only do so much before it goes into solid state or starts drawing more. This is similar to experimenting with a pick up coil as your trigger. Maybe start adding more relays??? Aaron my understanding is similar to yours. Current cannot flow through until the magnetic field has built up. This choking coil may be restricting current just long enough to reduce amp draw.

Well done
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  #371  
Old 03-09-2008, 07:13 AM
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shorter duty cycle

Hi Ren,

My original thought is that it caused a quicker duty cycle. Someone else did this test and if they don't mind, I'll post their result.

I asked about the winding direction actually for someone else.

I also wonder about the charging. If in the shorter duty cycle the coil is able to be charged just as full, then the spike coming back should be the same.

The geometry between the magnets should be considered as to where this choke allows the on pulse to happen and if that is beneficial or not.

But with 30% drop in current with higher rpm, I think it looks really, really good so far.
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  #372  
Old 03-09-2008, 04:55 PM
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I don't think the direction of the winding is signifcant. I have taken the relay out and put it back in so many times that i'm sure it performing the same (or at least very similarly) in both directions... there is no noticable difference.

Looking forward to hearing your friend's results Aaron! would also love to see a scope shot if anybody gets similar results!

Ren - I would like to try and take out the resistors all together and just use chokes but at the moment I can't get the right value...I only have 2 of these coils and if I put them both in series I can't get the reistance low enough to get to a sweet spot... I might try taking half the windings off one of the coils...
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  #373  
Old 03-09-2008, 05:01 PM
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I'm getting pretty good charging results though doesn't appear to be over COP 1 yet... I really need better batteries to do a fair test. at the moment I am using the recovered wheel chair batteries but they are not up to their full capacity yet so I've bit the bullet and bought 4 new 24ah batteries online which should be here in the next week or two.

Then the real fun begins! There are a few other variations I'm trying but I need 4 batteries of equal value so looking forward to those!
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  #374  
Old 03-09-2008, 07:12 PM
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Lee's trigger on choke result

Here is a post from Lee:

" Hello Aaron and All,

I did some testing with an inductor in the trigger circuit, although
this was not extensive. The inductor effectively delays the point at
which the base of the transistor receives enough voltage to begin
conducting. Without the inductor in the trigger circuit, the point at
which the base begins to conduct is dictated by speed and strength of
the passing rotor magnet. The physical geometry, gauge of wire and
number of turns in the coil. Also, the quantity of welding rod that
makes up the core of the coil. Increasing and reducing base resistance
has little effect on this point of base conduction but with an
inductor in the trigger circuit combined with base resistance, the
point at which the base conducts can be delayed, effectively reducing
pulse width and therefore, current draw.

All The best Lee…"
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  #375  
Old 03-09-2008, 08:24 PM
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hmmm... I can't quite get my head around what is being said....

when he says it delays the pulse, does he mean it simply moves the pulse, say, 5 milliseconds later...

or

it cuts off the front end of the pulse...

I don't really understand...

then again, perhaps I'm making it over complicated! So it's simply reducing the length or the pulse?

I'm going to have to get a scope!
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  #376  
Old 03-09-2008, 08:54 PM
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trigger delay

Hi Sephiroth,

Yes. It shortens the pulse width and delays the on time for the transistor.

Magnet N moves towards core and induces a reverse charge to base keeping it off. The moment that the magnet moves away from top dead center, the field flips and then there is positive at the base that turns on the transistor, which of course allows the power winding to charge from the battery.

Having the inductor I would imagine slows the time BOTH (just guessing at this point) for the reverse voltage to hit the trigger (keeping it off) and after magnet moves away from TDC it delays the positive that is necessary to turn the transistor on.

So for example in John Bedini's examples of the power turning on at 23 degrees (on 8 pole example I think), it might turn it on at 25 degrees for example. If it turns on later in the rotation that is the delay.

If it is delayed then that means the north field of the next approaching magnet will start to induce a field in the coil quicker than normal...in relation to when it was turned on to begin with...meaning that starting later and cutting off sooner will cause it to have a shorter pulse width...shorter pulse width is less current used.
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Last edited by Aaron; 03-09-2008 at 09:35 PM. Reason: changed "6 magnet" to 8 pole
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  #377  
Old 03-09-2008, 09:19 PM
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Yes Aaron!

The pot varies how long it takes for the trigger pulse to fire I think. This means that as you vary the resistance upwards it fires further away from the north that has just passed. It eventually gets to a stage where the scalar south switches it off microseconds later. The coil is firing well after the north now and is attracting the scalar south more than repelling the north. Any further increase will only raise amp draw and reduce speed from here as this is the optimal tuning spot.

I think this relay may be effecting the pulse width which is different to when it fires. Lets say your transistor needs 1 volt to the base for it to trigger. If the passing magnet induces 1 volt or over for 2 seconds then the transistor will fire for 2 seconds. I think the relay may be choking the amount of time the trigger coil sends the 1 volt pulse lets say for 1 second now. You now have a faster on/off time, effectively changing your pulse width. This could also be done with a thinner/weaker magnet. My 2 cents, could be wrong. There is a good read on affecting pulse width here http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/ on page 9.

I am also assuming that the relay coil has a core too? Maybe that adds another dynamic, maybe not. Sep I am guessing the gauge of the wire in the relay is quite fine yeah? This is important too I think. You could vary and experiment by simply winding another tiny coil with finer gauge and use it the same way as the relay is being used here. I wondered if the direction of winding would alter things too Aaron....

What a way to kick start the Bedini thread. Keep it up guys!
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  #378  
Old 03-09-2008, 09:40 PM
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relay specs

Hi Ren,

Sephiroth posted that the relay coil has a steel looking core of 4mm diameter and 10mm diameter coil. Wire gauge looks like horse hair. What do you think, maybe 30 gauge?

Someone else was asking me about the turn direction of the coil in relation to the trigger.
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  #379  
Old 03-09-2008, 11:00 PM
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Oops missed that one Aaron! Ok so its super fine, you're right probably 30 gauge or even finer. From memory he said its about 67 ohms?

Does your relay click every time it fires Sep? Im trying to figure a way in which the relay could be further exploited. I was wondering if the NO (normally open) contacts of the relay could be utilized by wiring the power winding through it. I was thinking that the sg's coil could be physically disconnected at all times until the relay is triggered to fire. The triggering would close the contacts on the relay completing the power winding circuit at the same time choking the trigger circuit. Maybe that wont work or wont change anything, just thinking out loud. This could make back popping easier to acomplish if it did work because the circuit is disconnected at all times until it fires.

This relay coil changes the 1 to 1 make up that is common throughout most of JB's designs. I would be interested to see a comparison made with a coil wound 1 to 1 but with a 30+ gauge as the trigger, much like the Bedini/Cole half circuit calls for a much finer gauge on the trigger in the window configuration.
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  #380  
Old 03-09-2008, 11:46 PM
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Ren - I was trying to do somehting very similar with the relay but no, it doesn't trigger it... with hindsight, I should probably have hooked the trigger and relay together with a bridge recifier...

the core of the coil is a soft steel

I have just tested the speed and amps with the coil hooked both ways and the performance is identical so direction of the windings doesn't seem to be significant...
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  #381  
Old 03-10-2008, 12:02 AM
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ok interesting.... So theres not enough of a magnetic field to activate the relay, or its switching too fast for the contacts to close.

Keep testing away, I think the diode bridge would complicate things on the trigger circuit however.

I have nearly finished the basic construction for my next round of tests. I have a 23 inch wheel with a fixed shaft so timing pulleys etc can be employed. Post some pics soon
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  #382  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:09 PM
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choke on trigger vid?

Hey Sephiroth,

Are you going to put up a youtube vid with a demo of the choke on the trigger comparison before and after? Probably would get some good feedback from others.
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  #383  
Old 03-11-2008, 07:30 PM
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Hi everyone!!!!!!

I invite you to look at Youtube to see an interesting
setup based on ktservices.
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=qEfGnAif3ik&feature=user
He need some advices for improuve is desing.
I'm not so qualified because i just start to understand the basics.
But i'm sure guys like:sephiroth,ren,theremart,and other can take
a quick look and come with solutions!!!!

peper10
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  #384  
Old 03-11-2008, 09:17 PM
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Thinking!!!!

I guys!!!
IF anyone ad a look at is setup,could it be possible that:with the 2 outside
coils he can pulse is voltage back in is primary battery directly from is
rectifier????
I'm not pretty sure,because someone said that:[U]You can't charge a
battery when you take power from it.[U]
And at the same time there anoter guy (ultimate bedini)on youtube who's
doing that?????
Can somebody bring me lighton that??
Thanks

peper10
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  #385  
Old 03-11-2008, 09:20 PM
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no video

The video link you posted says the video was removed.
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  #386  
Old 03-11-2008, 09:31 PM
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Look for....

It still work for me?????
In the search box tipe(bedini circuit diagram)..
the guy nickname is:PWORDCHERNOIR.
Thanks

peper10
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  #387  
Old 03-13-2008, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Hey Sephiroth,

Are you going to put up a youtube vid with a demo of the choke on the trigger comparison before and after? Probably would get some good feedback from others.
Uploading a vid now... it should be on my channel in the next hour or two...

YouTube - introvertebrate's Channel

though I couldn't get as good as demonstration as I hoped for... using a different magnet configuration to my original tests but you can see the obvious difference in amp draw compared to rpm which is the main thing

really find it hard to believe no one else has posted positive results... I noticed Lee didn't mention his rpm.

Has anybody tried this yet?
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  #388  
Old 03-14-2008, 04:39 AM
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youtube video?

Hi Sephiroth, I still don't see it up and its been quite a few hours.
Do you have a direct link to it?

Thanks!
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  #389  
Old 03-14-2008, 07:05 AM
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sorry.... went to bed while it was uploading and there was an error.... uploading again now.
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  #390  
Old 03-14-2008, 08:36 AM
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YouTube - Benificial Modification of the Bedini SSG?
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