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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-13-2008, 08:43 AM
Ewhaz Ewhaz is offline
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Battery Sensing and switching for Bedini Systems

I've created a small circuit to sense the voltage of the batteries, both charging and power, and switch when one of two conditions is met. Either A) the power battery drops below a certain voltage, or B) the charging battery reaches a voltage.

However I'm not all that great as a circuit designer, I found a few ideas off the net and threw them together. If any one sees any obvious flaws, or definite improvements I would very much appreciate it. Also I could use a little help with selecting the right values for the resistors, etc.


First we start with the main circuit. We have an SCR supplying the power to the charger, and the SCR is triggered by voltage from a Zener Diode (D1). The Zener diode is hooked up across a voltage divider (R1 & R2) to fine tune the cutoff voltage.

An NPN Transistor (q1) is also in line for sensing/switching from the charging battery side. It's isolated frome the charging battery by an opto-isolator (The 4n25 diagram was the only one the program had) which is controled by the PNP (q2) and NPN (q3) switch on the charging side. In that situation, the Zener diode is used to send the base of the PNP transistor high, which would cut off the NPN transistor (q3). The NPN transistor is set up in a self powered loop to keep itself triggered so long as it has power and once turned off will have to be reset by the momentary NO switch.

Under normal charging situations, once the reset switch is pressed, the circuit will continue to keep Q1 open until the battery reaches whatever charge your looking for, at that point the PNP is biased and cuts power to the circuit which will not reset without the switch and power from the PNP transistor.

I'm also looking to design a circuit that will interface with the computer.. (though I have to learn to program first).. So that some A/D converters can be read directly into the computer, log the data and even control the switching of the circuit as well.

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Old 02-13-2008, 01:43 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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RE: Circuit to auto switch.

We have the same dream


It has been done here ->

Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:Monsieur Bonheur-SG - PESWiki

See Battery Swapper schematic .

Directory:Bedini SG:Replications:Monsieur Bonheur-SG - PESWiki



I have looked around there is another circuit to shut off the power after the voltage on the primary reaches X amount.

I think you need to be part of this group before you can see the files.


http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/B...%27s%20Folder/
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Old 02-15-2008, 12:15 AM
Ewhaz Ewhaz is offline
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The Peswiki schematic, but I was unable to find the files to upload to the chip in order to make it run. Looks good though. It looks though it will be a long long project for me as I need to learn how to do all this first, which is going to take a bit.

It would just be nice to have a basic circuit that controls the charger to prevent trouble when your not around. This especially considering Peter's recent admition that the effect of charging the batteries on the bedini systems disapates completely after 2 days. In this state, its easy to see how there is so much contradictory information out there, of course no one can see them if the requirements are very specific.

If I can find those files, I'll build that circuit since I know where to get the chips and componants. That will hold me over temporarily till I can manage to program something more robust and interactive. I would like something that logs the voltages and controls the switching all at once for easier data collection.
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:10 AM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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And whilst we are at it we are going to test this relay circuit on RF"s fan kit.
See here we made the Fan kit to be able to accept the relay circuit.(plug in) Now don't know how many bugs are on it, will soon find out when it doesn't work
Attached Images
File Type: jpg auto batts switch.jpg (138.5 KB, 287 views)
File Type: jpg Relay circuit lay out.JPG (500.4 KB, 198 views)
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Old 02-15-2008, 01:14 AM
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Guys sorry for the double post, now what about the attached 4 battery rotator system, what we really need is to find some circuit which can close the loop, IE- let one rest whilst one charges as JB says.

I have not been able to find any circuit yet but thats what we should work on IMO.

Ash
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File Type: jpg mono-pole19.jpg (51.4 KB, 220 views)
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Old 02-29-2008, 09:05 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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OK!!!!! enough already.

Ok, next on my agenda is to build an automatic battery swapper.

I have completed the SSG, the SSG with a generator, and the RV prime mover, next is this battery swapper. I want to walk away from the SSG and let it mind itself.

I think I will attempt this in 2 directions. Number 1

( the link I posted before )

See Battery Swapper schematic .

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directo...TERYSWAPPER.21

I will order these parts and start in.

Also at the same time I will build the relay that Rick suggests for a standard double throw switch.

I do know I will need help... think I will post this in the bedini group, I am sure they want it as bad as I do.

I will have to learn the pic language, but all in due time.
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Old 03-01-2008, 07:14 AM
Ewhaz Ewhaz is offline
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I'm expecting an Atmel training board soon, this swapping circuit will be one of the first things I work on. I wish the guy had posted something on the program, but all he does here is just show the schematic.
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Old 03-01-2008, 06:22 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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Ok this might be a way to go...

I found this board...

Serial Relay Output / Opto Input ( Basic Stamp, PICAXE) - eBay (item 360012731950 end time Mar-10-08 10:20:42 PDT)

It is like a high level language (Basic ) with relays built in.....

I am thinking like... this would be much easier than doing the assembly language routine for something as simple as we are doing..
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:28 PM
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Chip Shorter Chip Shorter is offline
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I have been looking into a circuit that will utilize voltage to frequency convertors. Then the outputs from those will go through logic that will switch the batteries. I would also like to series batteries to boost voltage then have the capability to parallel them for charging.

But looking at some of your schematics here guys I'm having second thoughts. BTW I noticed a lot of your schematics are really nicely done. What software are you using to draw them?
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Old 03-07-2008, 09:24 PM
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RE: this board

Quote:
Originally Posted by theremart View Post
I found this board...

Serial Relay Output / Opto Input ( Basic Stamp, PICAXE) - eBay (item 360012731950 end time Mar-10-08 10:20:42 PDT)

It is like a high level language (Basic ) with relays built in.....

I am thinking like... this would be much easier than doing the assembly language routine for something as simple as we are doing..
Ok I have this board. I ordered it, and it is in my hands now... where in the world do I get a basic stamp 2 software to program it? Off to the net I go...

Mart
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Old 03-10-2008, 12:52 AM
bourne bourne is offline
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Split Charge Relay Kit - 12v Intelligent Self Switching

Look what I just found. Is this any good for your needs?

SPLIT CHARGE RELAY KIT - 12V INTELLIGENT SELF SWITCHING on eBay, also, Accessories, Boats Watercraft, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 17-Mar-08 23:07:39 GMT)

Description...

This intelligent self switching split charge relay kit is used for charging a second or third battery from your main vehicle system. This kit is different from our standard split charge relay kit, in that it monitors the main battery voltage and switches the charge to the secondary battery off and on when required. This ensures that the main battery charge is maintained.

Suitable for any 12V vehicle, where a second or third battery needs to be charged

Example of use: If you install a second battery in your vehicle for running additional appliances and need it to be charged from your vehicles existing system. The relay kit is connected between the vehicles main battery and the second battery. The relay controls the charge rate to the second battery to maintain a fully charged state.

What's Included...

*
Intelligent Split Charge Relay Kit
*
4 Meters 30 Amp Cable
*
Fuse Holder & Fuse
*
Scotch Locks
*
Fitting Instructions
*
Full Telephonic Technical Support

The Benefits...

*
Connects straight to the main battery + terminal
*
Intelligent monitoring of the main battery
*
Up to 30 Amp charge rate for 1 additional battery
*
Up to 15 Amp charge rate for 2 additional batteries (split)
*
No alternator connection required
*
Prioritises to protect your main battery
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:23 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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RE: Switch charger..

Looks cool, but would be hard to switch sets from primary to charging battery, although, if you wanted to say push a charge of only 12 V, till the first battery died then have a second one kick in this might work.

So far I have the Pic, and I have the Basic Stamp 2 program, however, I cant get my silly com port to talk to the board.

I have 2 boards now, the second board they shipped me the wrong power supply so, will have to wait on that one. I have emailed the company to try to find out why board number 1 does not work.

The joys of getting parts to work
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Old 03-12-2008, 09:52 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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Wonderful news...

I was able to track down they guy with the code, and he is gracious enough to share with us. I am now working on testing the code after I burn to flash

WOOOOO HHOOOOO
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Old 03-15-2008, 06:42 PM
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Update...

Relays ordered, Code is working on the pic.
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Old 03-16-2008, 07:01 AM
Runnningrage Runnningrage is offline
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"help Wanted"

I just bulit the entire thing today but nothing happen. A bad sign is the batteries

are getting warm so something definetly wrong with it. i have good background

knowledge on the bedini motor but still something must be wrong with. If you

can give me some advice ,or maybe i can send u some pic if u can point some

thing out on the pic i going to send u would greatly be please. Didn't want to

solder all of my connection so instead i used alligator clips. Just in case i want to

replace my transistor. I don't know if it matter i solder all of the connection are

not. I want so bad to make the motor run, but the trobleshooting is me making so

upset.

My the parts i pick are the source of the problem here is a list of them

- Power Battery (werker wka12 1.3F 12v 1.3Ah Lead Acid)
- Charge Battery ( YUASA 12V NP2.3-12 2.3Ah)
- Potentiometer 1-Megohm Liner-Taper
- Transistor 2N3055
- Resistor 10K-Ohm 1/2 watt 5% tolerance
- Diode 1N4007 1000V & 1N4001 diode
- Alligator clips for connection expect transistor i solder 1N4007 & 1N4001 diode to the Base with Emitter and collector
-Magnets are facing north

The coil doesn't turn to a eletricmagnet i connect the batteries to it, but it's suppose to arract the magnets to the electricmagnet coil
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Old 03-16-2008, 09:56 AM
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aladinlamp aladinlamp is offline
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runnningrage View Post
I just bulit the entire thing today but nothing happen. A bad sign is the batteries

are getting warm so something definetly wrong with it. i have good background

knowledge on the bedini motor but still something must be wrong with. If you

can give me some advice ,or maybe i can send u some pic if u can point some

thing out on the pic i going to send u would greatly be please. Didn't want to

solder all of my connection so instead i used alligator clips. Just in case i want to

replace my transistor. I don't know if it matter i solder all of the connection are

not. I want so bad to make the motor run, but the trobleshooting is me making so

upset.

My the parts i pick are the source of the problem here is a list of them

- Power Battery (werker wka12 1.3F 12v 1.3Ah Lead Acid)
- Charge Battery ( YUASA 12V NP2.3-12 2.3Ah)
- Potentiometer 1-Megohm Liner-Taper
- Transistor 2N3055
- Resistor 10K-Ohm 1/2 watt 5% tolerance
- Diode 1N4007 1000V & 1N4001 diode
- Alligator clips for connection expect transistor i solder 1N4007 & 1N4001 diode to the Base with Emitter and collector
-Magnets are facing north

The coil doesn't turn to a eletricmagnet i connect the batteries to it, but it's suppose to arract the magnets to the electricmagnet coil

get rid of

- Potentiometer 1-Megohm Liner-Taper
- Resistor 10K-Ohm 1/2 watt 5% tolerance

use just 10K-10turn precision potentiometer, more expensive but perfect for tuning and understanding the role of resistance in this circuit
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Old 03-16-2008, 01:27 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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RE: need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Runnningrage View Post
I just bulit the entire thing today but nothing happen. A bad sign is the batteries


The coil doesn't turn to a eletricmagnet i connect the batteries to it, but it's suppose to arract the magnets to the electricmagnet coil

You might want to switch to the SSG thread is about making a bettery swapper.

Also check out some cool videos that have been made for SSG newbies.


See videos ->

How to Build a Bedini Motor


great site as well.. -->

AionAlchemy™ - radiant
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Old 03-17-2008, 04:11 AM
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gmeat gmeat is offline
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help

Hi Everybody,

Is anyone currently using this Power analyzer or have an opinion as far as tracking the battery perfomance and other parameters of the SSG .Thx for the input in advance .

Medusa Research

-gmeat
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:46 AM
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Update on battery swapper

Currently the software that came from Dune Buggy is running on the pic. It is now operating the relays, however, for what ever reason the keyboard input via the com port is not working. I can receive from the com port and I see that it is testing the batteries.

I have on order a 12V power supply for this, ( might be some of the problems now I am running at 9V )

But I cannot figure out why the Pic will not receive commands from the com port. I have tested this with a program put onto the pic that allows you to test the com port and that works. So I believe the problem is in some way I am loading this hex file to the pic, or some change in pic or program. Dune buggy had stated to use the program Winpic to program this, but it does not work with my K150 programmer. So I have been using a program called MicroPro that i have loaded the hex file and ran.

I have reverse compiled Dune buggy's program to assembly language, but I have no clue what I am looking at.

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Old 04-01-2008, 12:16 AM
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theremart theremart is offline
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Battery Swapper..... WWOOOORRKKSS !!!

HIP HIP HURRAY

I can now swap batteries from my keyboard, or set a threshold voltage for the batteries to swap! At last my 12V power supply came in tonight and after fooling around with it some more, It is working!

Video of the details.
YouTube - Video 31 Battery Swapper Fully operational!


Last edited by theremart : 04-01-2008 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 04-06-2008, 09:18 PM
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RE: battery swapper.

I have had a request for the instructions to flash the pic. I asked Dude buggy, if I could share it, when I got the code, and he said YES Three cheers for Dude buggy!

However...

I am having trouble uploading this file to this forum I keep getting the message "invalid file". I have tried...

1. Uploading as .hex error.
2. Renaming to .txt error.
3. Zipping the file error.

Any suggestions how I can upload this?
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Old 04-07-2008, 05:13 AM
llynch llynch is offline
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I went through the process of trying to find the problem with attachements Mart. It looks like you can only use the following file extensions 'bmp doc gif jpe jpeg jpg pdf png psd' Should work with .doc .
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Old 04-07-2008, 01:35 PM
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Pic program .hex file for Dude Buggy's battery swapper

Ok, rename the attached file to .hex and should be good to go.

Mart
Attached Files
File Type: doc BatterySwappa-documented.doc (11.3 KB, 178 views)
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Old 04-16-2008, 08:24 PM
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thanks

got the hex file. thanks. now looking for hardware.
Are you using a capacitive discharge for your charging batteries in your circuits?

I have a dual monopole SSG with 5 - 12volt 4.5ah (1 primary, 4 secondaries), 16 ceramic magnets on aluminum rim, set up draws 210ma from primary for both of the bifilar coils (850 windings of #23 and #26) and achieves an average of 180 rps. I've changed the grease in the wheel bearings to a graphite product called Jig-a-loo.

Here is web page i threw up to illustrate where i'm at on this project. Darcy Klyne's Bedini Monopole Replication
I am at a point where i am unsure of the best way to charge my battery banks. Seems like research is prudent at every stage of the game from now on in. I am a bit of a electronics novice and appreciate any help from anyone. :P

Thanks for getting the pic program for us.

ModVid - Watch and Learn TV is a youtube clone that i host to compile a good collection of rare or important video. Please feel free to share your vids there. In the upload section i have set up a youtube downloader. (makes it easy to move video)
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Old 04-17-2008, 01:53 AM
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RE: swapper.

No, my charge goes straight to the other batteries not using a capacitor discharge yet. I will need one, but I have a friend that is designing a good dump for capacitors does a slow dump, more effiecient, as I understand will let you know how that goes...

I also am a novice at electronics, I owe a BIG debt to this board and Youtube for the search feature. Has helped me understand many things simply by looking at the how to videos on youtube.

Check out this web page as well...

Directory:Bedini SG - PESWiki

If you have not been there... Excellent replications there.

I HIGHLY recommend this site for beginners who know little of electronics

Erwin's Work Shop

Peace
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Old 05-17-2008, 09:11 PM
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Swapper

Marthale: I like your pc based battery swapper (nifty stuff) and might try it later on but what Im looking for is a battery swapper circuit that is part of the swg so the whole thing is self-contained.
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:15 AM
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RE: Battery Swapper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humperdink View Post
Marthale: I like your pc based battery swapper (nifty stuff) and might try it later on but what Im looking for is a battery swapper circuit that is part of the swg so the whole thing is self-contained.
I have had 4 others that are now in process of building it. Again, I want to give full credit to Dune Buggy for pioneering this project, I just followed where he paved the way.

You do not have to have the computer hooked up to the swapper, it is good for setting the initial settings of hours it runs, you can say 1 - 48 hours of run time before swaps. I guess it could run off a batter, but I am just running it off of the wall power it pulls 1 watt of power.

But once it is set, you can disconnect the computer and it will run and record the data, then you can pull this data for later.

I ran my 6 Golf cart batteries from 11.71 V to 11V in about 3 weeks time. I am now fully charging them so I can give them another run on the swapper.

I am working on programming my own code so I can record voltages as it goes. Slow going getting the assembler, and figuring out all the registers inside..

Mart
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-18-2008, 06:39 AM
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dodeca dodeca is offline
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holding relay without power

You might want a latching relay. ( with other parts too! )

Just pulse it to change states. No constant current.

like here ... > http://www.goodymt.com/viewproduct_5_e.html

google " latching relay "

Now some designs require constant power ...

I am referring to the old style mechanical or newer magnet type

Dodeca
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:54 AM
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theremart theremart is offline
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RE: latch key

Quote:
Originally Posted by dodeca View Post
You might want a latching relay. ( with other parts too! )

Just pulse it to change states. No constant current.

like here ... > http://www.goodymt.com/viewproduct_5_e.html

google " latching relay "

Now some designs require constant power ...

I am referring to the old style mechanical or newer magnet type

Dodeca
----------------

That does sound interesting, but as of now I have 8 of the old style relays and will stay with them. I still think you would need like 9 V to initally fire the relay.

I would like to know if there is such a thing as a double pole triple trow relay.

I would like to add another position to the relays that would be to off. I would like to give the batteries a rest after they have done the work of charging to let the battery naturally raise it's own voltage then add it to the mix about 1 hours later.

I have compiled my first assembly language program, and I am trying to figure out how to get the mplab ide software to do what I want it to do with the mpasm software. I am unclear how to get the internals of the chip to do what I want. I have ordered a book of Amazon that should help me get past these hurdles....

Mart
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:47 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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Wow working at last

I have just completed my first from scratch assembly program for the battery swapper! I can now switch only two banks instead of the 4 that Dude Buggy's program does.

Boy LOTS to learn in assembly langage testing that it works now, it has swapped two times and seems to be a ok!
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