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 Energetic Forum Understanding Battery Charge in Capacitive Discharge and SSG Chargers
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 John Bedini Discussion threads relating to John Bedini. Bedini SG, Bedini SSG, Crystal Batteries, etc...

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#1
01-13-2008, 11:09 AM
 elias Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,129
Understanding Battery Charge in Capacitive Discharge and SSG Chargers

Hello everyone,

I thought that there hasn't been much discussion about the type of charge in these two systems going into the battery, so I decided to start this thread.

What is the real difference? The capacitive discharge chargers seem to convert the negative energy to positive before giving it to the battery, but the SSG circuit seems to give negative energy directly to the battery. What happens when one rotates batteries in the SSG circuit, which it is told not to swap the batteries? What is the difference? Does a battery charged with SSG put out negative energy?

I don't understand this difference quite well. Has anybody got better insight to this? I hope Peter would help us understand the difference.

Elias
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#2
01-13-2008, 11:23 AM
 Sephiroth Silver Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 971
Quote:
 What happens when one rotates batteries in the SSG circuit, which it is told not to swap the batteries?
Does anyone know where the idea that you can't swap batteries on the SSG came from?! I keep hearing it said, though can't find a source.

Has John ever said we can't? I'm sure he cycles his batteries too...

Quote:
 What is the real difference? The capacitive discharge chargers seem to convert the negative energy to positive before giving it to the battery, but the SSG circuit seems to give negative energy directly to the battery.
I think there is very little difference... I heard (though am not positive) that John originally thought that a capacitor would be needed to convert the negative energy into positive energy before it could be used to charge the batteries but later found that the batteries could accept the charge just as well. It doesn't look like he uses capacitors in his recent models...
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Last edited by Sephiroth; 01-13-2008 at 11:27 AM.
#3
01-13-2008, 01:36 PM
 elias Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,129
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Sephiroth I heard (though am not positive) that John originally thought that a capacitor would be needed to convert the negative energy into positive energy before it could be used to charge the batteries but later found that the batteries could accept the charge just as well. It doesn't look like he uses capacitors in his recent models...
According to the EFTV2 documentary Bedini states so: "The spikes are collected in the end and sent to the battery. We don't need capacitors anymore. We don't need to do that if we collect all the spikes and let the battery translate it"

But I still don't understand why it is stated in the SG groups not to swap the batteries. Why does the SG drain the battery faster than a conventional load?
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#4
01-13-2008, 05:27 PM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
Forward Conversion

A long time ago, John called it Forward Conversion...taking the TIME CHARGE and putting it into a cap so that it could be available as normal power.

The potential involved in charging the batteries is literally from the TIME DOMAIN. Time itself is being used as potential. The time is stored up in the high voltage spike, which has almost no pulse width (time).

Lets say that you have the negative of the battery you're charging connected to the circuit and you are pulsing a charging source positive to the charging battery positive. The battery you're charging is an extension of a dipole with the negative potential from the source ALREADY sitting inside the battery you're charging. Then you are slamming the positive potential into this. Any resistance the positive potential encounters will have some dissipation or loss.

Lets say you have the positive of the charging battery connected to the positive of a cap bank. The battery you're charging is an EXTENSION OF THE DIPOLE that the cap bank is. That means that the positive potential from the vacuum is ALREADY available inside this battery you're charging. Now let's say you pulse the cap bank from the negative side to the negative of the battery you're charging. You then are slamming the negative potential into this battery, where the positive is already sitting. Any resistance the negative potential encounters on the way will cause more negative potential to come into the circuit at those points contributing and making a stronger separation in charge... stronger charge in the battery... and it didn't come from the capacitors, it came from the vacuum.

That is where the extra energy comes from when using the negative part of potential.

When I see references to radiant being negative energy, I really see the distinction that there are both positive and negative radiant energy. I hope this helps.

For battery swapping, etc... I believe batts charged with the radiant...either type... are best suited for powering resistive loads but I am not 100% sure of this. I know John has rotated batts in the past quite a bit...probably just testing, etc... I have done the same with great results.
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Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#5
01-13-2008, 09:16 PM
 Schpankme Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 167

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Aaron A long time ago, John called it [B][U][I]Forward Conversion ... The potential involved in charging the batteries is literally from the TIME DOMAIN. Time itself is being used as potential. The time is stored up in the high voltage spike, which has almost no pulse width (time).

Aaron,

Time like Distance and Speed is simply a measurement. Here's how i read your quote:

o Time itself is being used as potential
o Distance itself is being used as potential
o Speed itself is being used as potential

My Batteries charge better because I'm tapping the DISTANCE DOMAIN.

My Batteries charge better because I'm tapping the SPEED DOMAIN.

My Batteries charge better because I'm tapping the TIME DOMAIN.

My Batteries charge better because I'm tapping Radiant Energy.

- Schpankme
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#6
01-13-2008, 11:29 PM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
Time

You're exactly right, it is how YOU read my quote, which may or may not have any basis in MY reality.

Why don't you start by defining what YOUR definition of time is since you feel it is simply a measurement like speed or distance. Define exactly what time is a measurement of.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#7
01-16-2008, 12:26 PM
 elias Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,129
Quote:
Thanks for the explanations.
Do you mean that the simple SSG circuit charges batteries with negative radiant energy and the capacitive discharge charger charges with positive radiant energy? Now what will be the difference in the output of those batteries charged by either type? I mean current flow is current flow, or is there any difference between the current flow of batteries charged with different type of Radiant energy?
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#8
01-16-2008, 05:36 PM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
positive and negative potentials

Quote:
 Originally Posted by elias Thanks for the explanations. Do you mean that the simple SSG circuit charges batteries with negative radiant energy and the capacitive discharge charger charges with positive radiant energy? Now what will be the difference in the output of those batteries charged by either type? I mean current flow is current flow, or is there any difference between the current flow of batteries charged with different type of Radiant energy?
Hi Elias,

Either way, I believe the batteries are being charged with both positive and negative potential at the same time. However, depending on where it is triggered, you can take advantage of one or the other.

With caps, if you are connected at negative and you pulse on the positive, you're utilizing more of the positive potential and it won't be as strong. If you are connected at the positive and you pulse on the negative, you get a stronger charge. This is what I have found over and over.

When one cap terminal and one battery terminal are connected to each other, the battery is an extension of the capacitor dipole. Negative is connected, then the negative potential at the terminal at the capacitor is ALREADY fully filled in the battery as well as the battery is an extension of this. Then pulse on the positive, the positive moves into this situation.

If you're connected at the positive, the positive potential is ALREADY fully filled in the battery from the cap and you pulse on the negative, the negative potential smacks into this situation. But in this situation, any resistance, etc... it meets causes MORE to enter the circuit...you don't get this full effect if you pulse on the positive.

When I have charged on the negative side, I can get my batteries to a higher voltage than any other way.

Current is current if the amounts of current are equal.

In normal closed loop situation, there is always a ratio of radiant to current... (radiant:current or Heaviside flowrude electron gas). When you start pulsing, even in sloppy circuits, this ratio starts to charge to more radiant and little less current. If you have ultra low capacitance, high voltage discharges at high frequency, you will be charging with super high radiant but not enough current to get the battery in real charging mode (the fluffy charge that doesn't really pull a load).

Lets say you have an empty balloon, lets say it is full of negative charge. Inflate your lungs and blow hard into this balloon. You meet resistance and there is a loss and it takes more to fill the ballon.

Lets say the balloon is already full (positive terminal from cap and batt connected)..., put the balloon to your lips and suck the air out as hard as you can. You moved the same volume of air roughly compared to the first example, but it took a lot less work to do so (for you the operator).

That isn't a perfect analogy, but gives you the idea that working with the positive or negative potentials do act different.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#9
01-17-2008, 10:24 PM
 elias Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,129
Thanks Aaron

I thought to project some of my thoughts here:
I was thinking that maybe using larger gauge wire in SSG for charging is somehow like large capacitors with lower voltage in capacitive discharge chargers, and smaller gauge wire (thinner wire) is like using small capacitors and high voltage.

Smaller gauge wire has higher impedance and is unable to charge the batteries so well, small capacitors don't have enough force to move the ions of the battery just like the small gauge wire. Larger gauge wires increases charging efficiency very noticeably!
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#10
01-18-2008, 04:19 AM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
wires

To connect batteries, etc... you want wires like you connect to your battery in a car...really big and thick.

You also want wires, etc.. to be STRAIGHT LINES and RIGHT ANGLE turns to be optimum for how the radiant likes to move...it doesn't like curves.
I'm not sure you'll see a difference doing this, but it is optimum.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#11
01-18-2008, 02:05 PM
 elias Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,129
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Aaron To connect batteries, etc... you want wires like you connect to your battery in a car...really big and thick. You also want wires, etc.. to be STRAIGHT LINES and RIGHT ANGLE turns to be optimum for how the radiant likes to move...it doesn't like curves. I'm not sure you'll see a difference doing this, but it is optimum.
Thanks, I will consider this in building my new energizer.
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#12
01-28-2008, 08:34 PM
 Ewhaz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 79
I just finished my self oscillating unit and started my tests.

I know there is a certain amount of time that must transpire before I can see any cop=1<

I just had a few questions about what look for and what to expect

First, when I begin charging the battery.. it begins climbing. I take a reading right off the terminals without taking it off the charger. It gets up to X voltage, but when it's removed it drops slightly. Am I looking for the voltage its charged to (IE on the charger) or the voltage it drops to after removed?

Second, I know a certain amount of time must transpire before the batteries/ system get conditioned and begin putting out cop of greater than one. What am I looking for when this begins to happen, and what kind of time are we talking about for batteries to become conditioned?

Both the batteries I have are 8ah lead acid batteries.

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#13
01-29-2008, 05:29 AM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
dip in voltage

Hi Ewhaz,

When I charge my batts with the SG, the voltage climbs and climbs and then I see a little dip in the voltage. This happens even when the SG is still charging. At that point, I stop charging it...when I see the little dip in voltage.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#14
01-29-2008, 10:27 AM
 Jetijs Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,134
Ewhaz,
as for conditioning the batteries, in many places there is said that you need at least 10 charging/discharging cycles to see some positive results. Of course that depends on the condition of the battery. The more cycles the better
Good luck!
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#15
02-03-2008, 05:36 PM
 Jetijs Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,134
Hi everyone
While several of the parts for my attraction motor are being machined, I decided to do some experiments with the Bedini cap pulser setup. I always wanted to try this out. My setup has a rotor with 12 double stacked magnets on it, N pole facin outwards. The coil is trifilar with about 500 turns of gauge 24 wire. The transistor is the MJ21194, base resistance is 200 ohms and I am using 1k 20w pot. The third winding goes to a 4A 1000V bridge rectifier. There are eight 10 000uF 60V caps in parallel connected to the bridge rectifier. Thats 80k uF cap bank The positive lead of the cap bank is connected to the charging battery bank consisting of three 12V 7Ah batteries in parallel. I am pulsing those batteries on the negative lead using a solid state relay rated for 250VDC and 70A. The relay is switched using a 555 timer circuit which gives it a short pulse every 6-7 seconds. This allows the caps to fill to about 15V before they are pulsed to the batteries . There is also a LED in the 555 circuit board, that flashes at the same time as the SSR, this way I can easily adjust the pulse width and the frequency. The primary battery is also a 12v 7Ah. The current draw from the primary is about 250mA. So far everything seems to work very good. Here are some pictures:

A weird thing is that the voltage on the primary battery has risen from 12.50 to 12.53V after about 30 minutes of SSG running time. Maybe my cheapOmeter is wrong. Will see what happens next
I will keep you informed about how it performs.
Thanks,
Jetijs
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Last edited by Jetijs; 02-03-2008 at 05:39 PM.
#16
02-03-2008, 05:55 PM
 theremart Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1,415
Re Weird thing.

I have noted that with the SSG, that if I leave the charging battery plugged in it will drain it. Also I have noticed that the higher the charge of the charging battery the less work there is on the primary battery.

I have started putting a capacitor on front with the supply battery and I have found this was of good benefit to the circuit. It seems to buffer the systems request for more energy, and put less stress on the primary battery.

I am thinking you are moving close to building the window motor in what you are doing.

Mart
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#17
02-04-2008, 11:05 AM
 Jetijs Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,134
So far it does not look too good. The current draw from the primary is in the c20 range, the caps fill up slowly - about 5-6 seconds till they get from 12v to 15v. The solidstate relay works fine, I mean, I can see the voltages rising on the caps and then suddenly they fall back to 12v. Also on the batteries I see them at about 12.04v and when the caps are discharged, the voltage on the batteries rises to 12.08v for a short time. So the capacitor discharging seems to happen well. Althought when I increase the discharge frequency, it appears that the SSR can't discharge the caps fast enough in one pulse. For example, I charge the caps to say 30V and then pulse the caps to the batteries with about 5-8 pulses per second. The voltage on the caps only graduatly decrease while pulsing and not all in one pulse. Yesteday I let the SSG run for about 5 hours, and the voltage on the 3x7Ah batteries had risen from 12.04 to 12.06. I think that with a standard SSG and no cap pulser it would charge alot faster. Then I tried to charge up only one 7Ah battery, there was maybe a tinny little bit faster charging, but nothing big. So what can you recommend me to try? Mybe I should reduce the cap bank capacity? This way I could get them to charge faster and pulse to the batteries at greater frequency. Or should I cycle the betteries till they are conditioned and only then try to use the cap pulser? My goal is to be able to swap batteries around so that the charging battery charges faster than primary one discharges. Maybe I should get rid of that SSR? I will make some scope shots on the battery voltage when they are pulsed, this way we should see if the SSR is working as needed and if it can discharge the whole cap bank in one pulse.
Thanks,
Jetijs
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#18
02-04-2008, 07:51 PM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
discharge method

Hi Jetijs,

I agree that you should decrease the capacitance. I'm surprised the bank isn't charging quicker.

When I had this coil on this schematic:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa....html#post4023
hooked to a bike wheel, the output on the 3rd winding charged a cap bank of 60volts and each cap was 33,000uf. I had about 6 caps...198,000uf.

I had a mechanical pulley discharge the cap bank when it was a few volts above the charging batt...maybe 15v or so. It would get to a few volts above the charge batt about every 2-3 seconds or so.

If you're using a 555 circuit similar to what you see on that same schematic linked to above, I'm using that 2SC3281 instead of a relay. I might have the trigger drawn on the wrong side, but the point is, it needs to point in that direction if pulsing inverted on the negative side.

Is the relay off/on fast enough in comparison to the 2sc3281? It works really well for me. I never really used relays before so I don't know how to compare them.

Anyway, I'd try to arrange your system so that the caps would be 2-3 volts above the charge batt voltage and have it happen about every 2 seconds then discharge at that frequency. Also, try charging only 1 battery on the output and see what happens.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#19
02-04-2008, 10:10 PM
 Jetijs Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,134
Aaron, thank you
One problem was the solid state relay, it could not discharge the caps in one pulse, maybe due to its resistance. I switched to a normal 2 pole relay which I trigger with the same 555 circuit. I switched to a variable power supply on the input instead of a battery. Also I found out that if I make the circuit self oscillate when the wheel is not turning, the caps charge faster. There is a high pitch noise coming from the coil, nothing new, but if I increase the voltage of my power supply when the coil is self oscillating, the pitch changes. If I lower the voltage, the pitch goes higher (so does the frequency) and I can get as low as 1.5v before the oscillations stop. If I increase the input voltage, the pitch goes lower and lower (so does also the frequency) and amp draw increases. But this happens only till the input voltage reaches about 18V, if I increase the voltage further, the pitch starts to go higher again. Maybe that is the resonance sweet spot? Anyway, now the setup is drawing about 0.2 amps at 18V and the caps charge up fast, I have to discharge them about one time per second, because this is how fast the voltages on the caps rise to about 15-16v. Also I noticed, that if I connect the output from the rectifier to the battery directly, the high pitch noise is still (not changing in tone), but If I charge the capacitors, then the pitch increases till the caps are discharged and the this starts all over again. Sound kinda like a fire truck or an ambulance car The relay seems to work well, there is no arcing on the contacts if I don't let the voltages on the caps go higher than 17-18v. Now I am charging only one 7Ah battery on the output.
Will see how it works
Thanks again Aaron
Jetijs
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It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.
#20
02-05-2008, 07:58 AM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
battery continues to charge on its own

Hi Jetijs,

If you can get this system to charge the battery good and I think mechanical switch is maybe best, you will see that you charge the battery for a while then turn everything off... the battery will continue to climb for another hour without any further input. That was my experience with the cap discharge circuit pulsing into a batt every 2 seconds a few volts above the batt...on a pulley triggered copper switch pulsing on the positive...I didn't do it on the negative.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#21
02-05-2008, 11:19 PM
 Jetijs Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,134
Aaron, did you use conditioned batteries when you observed this effect? And what kind of batteries did you use, lead/acid or gel cell batteries?
The charging with the self oscillating coil is faster than with rotating wheel, the caps are charging well and so does the battery. I left this 7Ah battery to charge for 12 hours, it climbed from 12.15V to 12.75 (when charging). Then I removed the battery from the circuit and the voltage decreased to 12.55v standing voltage. No increase in voltage was observed after disconnecting it from the circuit.
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It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.
#22
02-06-2008, 04:57 AM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
battery info

Hi Jetijs,

I used 7ah 12v gel cells just like in your pics. I had one on the front end and one on the back end. With the high capacitance impulses, I think you will get the effect of continuous charging after disconnection. Also, the cap voltage doesn't necessarily have to drop down to the charging battery voltage and if the impulse is fast enough, it won't.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#23
02-06-2008, 10:52 AM
 Jetijs Gold Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,134
Ok, I will just try this again and this time I will pulse the positive lead of the cap/battery bank. Also, after I stopped the test, I shorted out my caps till 0 volts. I measured them again in a hour and they were showing about 2V. This is interesting
Thanks,
Jetijs
__________________
It's better to wear off by working than to rust by doing nothing.
#24
02-06-2008, 07:34 PM
 Ewhaz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 79
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Aaron Hi Jetijs, I used 7ah 12v gel cells just like in your pics. I had one on the front end and one on the back end. With the high capacitance impulses, I think you will get the effect of continuous charging after disconnection. Also, the cap voltage doesn't necessarily have to drop down to the charging battery voltage and if the impulse is fast enough, it won't.
Is that to say that in normal (that is in conventional electrodynamic theory) circomstances capacitors will not retain any voltage after discharge? So then is this a good test for radiant energy, voltage gain after total discharge?

I turned off my system and disconnected the batteries. After shorting the capacitor some 3 times, it still gained voltage.
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#25
02-06-2008, 08:11 PM
 Solace Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 31
Hi Ewhaz,

It is my understanding that it is normal for caps to do this.

S
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#26
02-08-2008, 07:50 PM
 Ewhaz Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 79
Here is something I've noticed since I started running. The situatation was something like this.

Not knowing how to test my circuit for it's proper operation, I assmebled it and ran it at first without realizing the 555 wasn't triggering the opto and thus not the SCR. In other words it wasn't pulsing the cap to the batteries, it was just holding the circuit wide open to the baterries. The coil was discharging directly into the battery.

In this condition, I charged my first battery. The voltage rose steadily over 12 hours reaching roughly 13.9 volts. After that I turned the unit off. The next day I charged it again, wanting to reach at least 14v before I switched my batteries. The voltage at that point climbed and climbed over 15v in the space of a few minuets. After that I decided it was time to switch them back. The resting voltage was around 13.17.

After that I switched to the other battery, it began taking an increadibly long time to charge. I began fiddling with my circuit over the days and realized my 555 wasn't working and simply dumping directly into my battery. So I went and switched the 555 and it began to operate normaly, charging the cap to 155v round about and pulsing into the battery.

From this point on the charging became slow, very slow. I'd been charging it for about 5 days on and off, more than 24 hours total. It bearly got to 13.3 volts after all of that and I was having problems with my capacitors overheating. Sooo, I tested something. I disconected my pulsing circuit and hooked the output of the bridge rectifier strait to my battery. From that point on it charged steadily, jumping to 13.6 volts within and hour. as it reached 13.67 votls it seemed to peak out, leveling off between .67 and point .68 volts. It never got above that and I'm learly of charging it further as it was slipping backward in voltage, but only slightly.

But still, it seemed from experiments so far, that the battery charged much quicker discharging the coil directly into the battery.
__________________
It is a peaceful mind that makes a peaceful world.
-We Are One-
#27
02-08-2008, 10:57 PM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,004
self charging

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Solace Hi Ewhaz, It is my understanding that it is normal for caps to do this. S
This is what I thought too. When I short out caps, the voltage always seems to rise a few volts.

Even when I short my water cell tubes, the voltage immediately rises a few volts.

When I got the oscillator to run for a long time on just a cap, I think it was partly because the cap has the tendency to charge by itself.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#28
02-08-2008, 11:46 PM
 Peter Lindemann Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Liberty Lake, Washington Posts: 1,192
Electret Effect

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Aaron This is what I thought too. When I short out caps, the voltage always seems to rise a few volts. Even when I short my water cell tubes, the voltage immediately rises a few volts. When I got the oscillator to run for a long time on just a cap, I think it was partly because the cap has the tendency to charge by itself.
Aaorn,

Yes, the caps bounce back after discharge. Good caps will bounce back quite a bit. The high voltage electrostatic nature of the Radiant Spike tends to put an extra stress in the dielectric material of the capacitor. This makes the cap behave partially like an electret. This produces one of the gain mechanisms in the system.

Peter
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#29
02-14-2008, 06:04 PM
 elias Gold Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,129
Batteries behave like this too

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann Aaorn, Yes, the caps bounce back after discharge. Good caps will bounce back quite a bit. The high voltage electrostatic nature of the Radiant Spike tends to put an extra stress in the dielectric material of the capacitor. This makes the cap behave partially like an electret. This produces one of the gain mechanisms in the system. Peter
I suppose that electrolytic capacitors behave like this. Batteries self charge upon resting too, which I think that everybody has noticed this. It is as if they want to maintain their previous state somehow.
__________________

#30
04-24-2008, 11:17 PM
 thedude Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 384

Thanks for the excellent insight. Wish i had read this one sooner.

I'm making some references to this and other discussions to help people find it.
Some really good information that people who are new to SSG s, such as myself, definitely need to know.

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