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 Inductive Resistor Open source development of highly efficient inductive resistor circuits.

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#241
07-05-2009, 06:08 PM
 Armagdn03 Silver Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 913

I did not realize you were referencing a different circuit.

As to what I said about heat and voltage drops, Heat is misunderstood, and so are voltage drops. A voltage drop happens when the energy passing through the element in question is not of the proper character to make the element appear transparent. The greater the disparity, the more opaque the load, and the higher the voltage "drop".

For example, hit a coil at the right frequency, and suddenly there is no voltage drop across it, it becomes transparent, and all you have done is change the character of the energy.

All the universe is nothing but energy in oscillation.

All we have to work with are octaves.

everything has to be put into this context.

This is really getting in way too deep for this thread and constitutes the re- writing of the "laws", so lets drop this topic here and pick it up somewhere else if people are interested.
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#242
07-05-2009, 06:57 PM
 DrStiffler Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 948
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Armagdn03 Thanks for the reply, I did not realize you were referencing a different circuit. As to what I said about heat and voltage drops, Heat is misunderstood, and so are voltage drops. A voltage drop happens when the energy passing through the element in question is not of the proper character to make the element appear transparent. The greater the disparity, the more opaque the load, and the higher the voltage "drop". For example, hit a coil at the right frequency, and suddenly there is no voltage drop across it, it becomes transparent, and all you have done is change the character of the energy. All the universe is nothing but energy in oscillation. All we have to work with are octaves. everything has to be put into this context. This is really getting in way too deep for this thread and constitutes the re- writing of the "laws", so lets drop this topic here and pick it up somewhere else if people are interested.
@Armagdn03
You are correct indeed, Heat is misunderstood. I may be way off base, but I would say 99% of people consider Heat incorrectly. Heat as you know and many do not, is the flow of energy and temperature is the start and end of the flow (simply put).

Heat is the engine driving the universe, even though many will say Heat is wasted, yet consider you own statement of a continuous flow of energy in the universe. Heat is never lost, it is indeed recycled (converted), if one wishes back into other forms of Spacial Energy.

The old view of Heat as a fluid 'Caloric' allowed a better mid picture of the process as one could them make a marriage to water for the picture and see Heat going through various states.
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#243
07-05-2009, 07:36 PM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
OK guys. This is good. I'm beginning to see the problem. Armagdn03 - Peter's circuit with the cap is not our circuit. I have actually never tested with the cap. Peter gave us this suggestions recently - after we'd retested for the paper for the IET. So I cannot tell you how the cap works. No idea at all. Another colleague has tested the cap. I am not sure of his results but will get back to you. So. For now, let's leave the cap out of the equation. I couldn't tell you the effects. I'd need Donovan or Peter to comment. It was proposed to increase efficiency and may very well do so. But all I'm trying to do here is to explain the principle.

So. Back to henieck's question. The 3.5w generated by the collapsing fields in the inductor does generate heat. It is measurable. But it is always less than the energy delivered during the on cycle. I think there are losses over the body diode in the MOSFET and a drop through the diode back to the battery. But. Changing electric fields induce magnetic fields and changing magnetic fields induce electric fields. When the battery is disconnected the fields over the resister collapse to zero. They then move through zero to give that full negative spike. That's the voltage that induces the second cycle current flow. It's reversed. But is still current and current does what it does everywhere. It enables the transfer of energy. So it dissiptes heat at the resistor and it ALSO recharges the battery. That is the whole point. The watts measured to be dissipated at the resistor therefore exceed the watts delivered by the battery. And the rate at which the battery draws down its energy is always consistent with the measure of energy as the difference between the on and off cycles.

EDITED. btw - counter electromotive force is known for the heat it delivers. Usually, on motor operated systems such as hand operated drills, the manufactures go to some considerable lengths to put in approprite heat sinks to get rid of this. It's considered a problem.

Armagdn03 - I need to point out that henieck is not into alternate ideas of the properties of current. But at this stage nor is it needed. The simple point is this. Classical measurements analysis shows the gain. The more sophisticated the measuring equipment the more evident that gain.

henieck - if you do get access to that scopmeter - then a good one can be set to ac and dc simultaneously. You'll see both measurements. The dc coupling shows the difference between these two values. The ac will show the product. Both are consistent with the fact but you need to factor in those losses related to inductance, and voltage drops - as mentioned. But these differences are small.

Sorry I took a while to back on this. I've just got in. But you're getting it. I see that now. This is very encouraging.
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Last edited by witsend; 07-05-2009 at 07:58 PM.
#244
07-05-2009, 09:03 PM
 henieck Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 46
That is the whole point indeed...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by witsend The 3.5w generated by the collapsing fields in the inductor does generate heat. It is measurable. But it is always less than the energy delivered during the on cycle. I think there are losses over the body diode in the MOSFET and a drop through the diode back to the battery.
"off"' cycle generates less “secondary” energy than delivered during "on" input, because energy from the input is divided between turning into heat and turning into magnetic field.

Quote:
 That's the voltage that induces the second cycle current flow. It's reversed. But is still current and current does what it does everywhere. It enables the transfer of energy. So it dissiptes heat at the resistor and it ALSO recharges the battery. That is the whole point.
- 3.5W either go to the battery –or is dissipated as heat - but most probably not both - like you suggest in the previous post and in above statement. This is very serious error in logic.
In my opinion we have the following scenario (numbers are just examples). During “on” time 5.7W goes from the battery to the circuit. Let us say 2.7W immediately dissipates as heat in the resistive wire and 3W is used to generate coil’s magnetic field. During “off” part of the cycle the same 3W comes back into the circuit as electricity spike again. Some of it may be delivered back to the battery (for example 2W) and the rest turns into heat along the way, depends on the topology of the circuit (1W).

So we have the following balance: battery: 5.7W out; 2W in (net: –3.7W)
Resistor: 2.7initial dissipation during “on” cycle and 1W during “off” cycle (net: +3.7W)

Anyway – I am here to learn – maybe you have real life example of energy distribution in your circuit.

I think that your last posts shows your flawed thinking - or my lack of possibility to understand this “technology”. It is true that “current does what it does everywhere - generates heat and recharge the battery”, BUT unfortunately until now nobody managed to use the same amount energy and turn it both into heat and into recharging the battery at the same time. It is possible only in your head when you make calculations based on a single wave form. It is easy to loose the big picture this way. You add this secondary energy from field collapse both to the heat side AND to the battery! That is the whole point indeed

Quote:
 - counter electromotive force is known for the heat it delivers. Usually, on motor operated systems such as hand operated drills, the manufactures go to some considerable lengths to put in approprite heat sinks to get rid of this. It's considered a problem.
- that is right, but it doesn’t mean that having 5Ah in battery you can use it all for drilling - and have some extra heat besides that. Come on…

Quote:
 - I need to point out that henieck is not into alternate ideas of the properties of current.
- I am very much into that – but I must think not the way I like it to be – but in the way it really is. If I wasn’t into this – I wouldn’t make your circuit or be present on this forum. So far I don’t see any anomalies – but at the same time I see flawed thinking of yours. Still I hope I am wrong and you are right.

Quote:
 Classical measurements analysis shows the gain. The more sophisticated the measuring equipment the more evident that gain.
- while you are using the most sophisticated instruments, please make sure that at the same time you don’t make so simple logic error and add the same gain two times – like you clearly did in your example. Check out this way of thinking again.

Quote:
 Sorry I took a while to back on this. I've just got in. But you're getting it. I see that now. This is very encouraging.
- no problem, I am happy that you had time and patience to explain so much. Thanks again.
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#245
07-05-2009, 09:45 PM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
Ok heniek - here's the problem. You are assuming that the energy delivered by the battery is shared between the amount of energy stored as magnetic fields over the resistor and the amount of energy dissipated as heat.

So. Let us assume that we have a load resistor in series with a battery and no switching circuit. You would expect a straight forward result. Say 24 volts battery and a 10 ohm resistor. Then the wattage disssipated would be 24volts battery divided by 10 Ohms resistor = current. Current x battery voltage vi = wattage. So 24/10 x 24 = 57.6 watts. No losses to account for stored energy. Just a straight forward application of ohms law to establish that watt measure. Therefore all thing being equal you could expect exactly 57.6 watts or some really small fraction less than this to allow for some losses in the wire.

Now - take that same resistor and apply a current flow for a short period of time only. Does the battery then supply more energy than it did in the first example? Does it vary the amount of energy it now supplies because it is first turned on and then off? Well. We can check this out. All we need to do is measure the voltage across the load resistor. You will find that the amount of energy delivered still conforms to Ohms law. No difference at all. So - self-evidently no EXTRA energy was delivered to generate those stored magnetic fields.

Then, how much energy was dissipated during the off cycle. Again. do the measurement. You will find that - regardless of the length of the duty cycle, the actual energy dissipated during the off period is very nearly equal to the amount of energy dissipated during the on period. But let's be hyper modest. Let's say that only 60% of that energy was effectively generated during the on cycle was returned during the off cycle. Or even 10%. Whatever. Provided that some energy is returned then the sum of the energy delivered by the battery less the sum of the energy returned by the inductive components in the load is the actual cost of energy from the battery.

The extra heat generated during this off period is measured on the load. And the actual increase in the battery can be measured - especially if you configure the circuit as I described it with the use of two batteries. This is not speculative, or hypothetical. These are measurable results. And this is the question that encouraged those companies to try and get academic attention to this problem precisely because classical analysis does not allow for this gain. Yet the gain is very evidently there.

I've deliberately avoided all reference to what makes current flow - because that will simply confuse things. But I assure you that classical measurement analysis is all you need to prove these values. It's just also true that classical theory does not allow for the measured gain. That is the problem that we are trying to address.
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#246
07-05-2009, 10:15 PM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
TinselKoala - I think I may have misread your intentions because of the nature of the error you have made. You say that you positioned the probes as we illustrated it in the paper? That representation is only a required convention. If you position the probes as indicated and then look at the shunt and load together as you are doing - then the one will obviously be inverted in relation to the other. They are both showing the same 5% duty cycle. It is just that zero is referenced in antiphase - so to speak. I'm so sorry I didn't realise this before. It was such a simple distortion I also thought it was deliberate. If you want to read the actual duty cycle you must put the probes directly across the shunt - and then across the load. If you use a dual scope function then you will always get the one shown in opposition to the other.

There is nothing wrong with your duty cycle. It is the interpretation that's wrong.
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#247
07-05-2009, 10:28 PM
 henieck Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 46
Quote:
 Originally Posted by witsend Ok henieck - here's the problem. You are assuming that the energy delivered by the battery is shared between the amount of energy stored as magnetic fields over the resistor and the amount of energy dissipated as heat.
- yes, I did assume that I may be wrong, I may be hypnotized. That was very important hint - because guys with oscilloscopes now know what to search for.

Quote:
 So - self-evidently no EXTRA energy was delivered to generate those stored magnetic fields.
- interesting point of view. So this is the "place" where you think the extra gain goes into the equation - the moment where you energize the resistive coil also magnetizes the coil "for free"...

Thanks for all the insights. We are moving forward with all of this.
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#248
07-06-2009, 12:17 AM
 Tecstatic Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 452
Quote:
 Originally Posted by ren Hi Eric, As you may know I have built the window motor several times (I believe you posted in my Window motor replication thread regarding getting hit by huge magnets in the head? ). I am very familiar with the circuit, however I was unsure of whether you were tipping your circuit into self oscillation or using an IC to trigger each side of the (H bridge/Push-pull?) circuit. Love to see a schematic if it is any different. Regards
Hi ren

Yes I posted on your thread because I worried of your safety. I'm glad you escaped the huge magnets, those are to respect when the motor is running with high speed.

It is the standard driver circuit, and I let it self oscillate.

@All

At one side of the coil was a distorted sine of 28.5MHz 10Vpp, on the other side of the coil there was something that with some good will could be interpreted as a square wave of 5.5MHz overlaid continuously with the 28.5MHz signal.

What I learned from DrStiffler is that the diodes play a big role, they must be fast and have a low capacitance.
I will order some STTH1R04 with a Trr of 14ns. If any of you use better diodes, please let me know.

Not as good as 1N4148 with 5ns, but the current handling is 1A, 5 times more.

The diodes I use now are 19ns, and probably enabling the fast oscillation of 28.5MHz.

To compare the heat I fed a power resistor with 1.2W DC. I got 11 degrees over room temp - but the surface area is just 1/4 of the PCB itself, and to this come pcb components and two TO220 diodes, all with better convection, and also the 105mm long coil diameter 32mm.

So I am sure the heat was more than 1.2W, I could feel the warm air rising from the PCB, but as this is not like the original Ainslie circuit, I will not pursue it further.

However the resistor coil can surely oscillate, and make a 8-LED AV plug lighting with an extra coil driven off the 28.5MHz at one end of the resistor coil.

What remains is to replicate the oscillation which Rosemary said has been so easy with the original circuit, although the recirculated energy alone is bang for the buck.

So what MOSFET types have you tried, and how fast are they ?

Also single pulses have a frequency determined by the pulse length, so it is important to find the pulse length hitting the high resonant frequency. I got it by self oscillation, with the original 555 circuit it must be tuned in.

Eric
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#249
07-06-2009, 12:17 AM
 henieck Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 46
Rosemary - I wonder have you ever tried to use magnetic core (other than the air). Do you have any thoughts on this?
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#250
07-06-2009, 02:14 AM
 TinselKoala Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 49
Quote:
 Originally Posted by witsend TinselKoala - I think I may have misread your intentions because of the nature of the error you have made. You say that you positioned the probes as we illustrated it in the paper? That representation is only a required convention. If you position the probes as indicated and then look at the shunt and load together as you are doing - then the one will obviously be inverted in relation to the other. They are both showing the same 5% duty cycle. It is just that zero is referenced in antiphase - so to speak. I'm so sorry I didn't realise this before. It was such a simple distortion I also thought it was deliberate. If you want to read the actual duty cycle you must put the probes directly across the shunt - and then across the load. If you use a dual scope function then you will always get the one shown in opposition to the other. There is nothing wrong with your duty cycle. It is the interpretation that's wrong.
You clearly still don't get it.
Believe me, I do know how to set and read an oscilloscope.

The 555 timer circuit published in the Quantum article produces, as I have illustrated, a signal that is 96.3 percent ON and can be varied somewhat around this value. As connected in the Quantum circuit, it turns the mosfet ON for that amount of time. Not off. The duty cycle produced by the circuit published in the Quantum article produces a mostly ON duty cycle, not a mostly OFF one as you claim.

Don't believe me? Build the circuit and see for yourself.

In addition, the circuit diagram as published in the Quantum article does not seem to include a flyback diode--yet the report of the same experiment in the EIT paper does show, and does discuss, the flyback diode.

All I am trying to do at this point is to find out just what circuit was used to do the experiment described. There is an error in one or the other of the circuits, maybe more than one, and it's not my error.
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#251
07-06-2009, 03:06 AM
 TinselKoala Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 49
Another question I would like to clear up has to do with the patent applications.

http://v3.espacenet.com/searchResult...submitted=true

These all appear to be applications, not issued patents.

Have any of these applications actually been approved?
That is, have any national or international patents been issued, or are there only the applications as listed here?

If the patents have actually been issued, where can I find the actual B documents? (The ones available in the above link are A, A1 and A2--that is, applications, not issued patents.)
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#252
07-06-2009, 05:57 AM
 TinselKoala Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 49
Independent confirmation of my contention about the Quantum paper's duty cycle:
Claimed OU circuit of Rosemary Ainslie

The mosfet is being turned ON almost all the time by the circuit in the Quantum article.
In addition, the 100R potentiometer has very little effect. It certainly does not cause the circuit to oscillate in any manner.

So at this point it seems very important to know: IS THE CIRCUIT IN THE QUANTUM ARTICLE IN ERROR? Is it printed incorrectly? What was the actual circuit used to gather the data in the described experiment?

Also there's that pesky flyback diode, not shown in the Quantum diagram, but which appears in the EIT paper describing the same experiment. What's up with that?
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#253
07-06-2009, 06:58 AM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
henieck, regarding your question on a magnetic core - no I've not done anything here - but I've often wondered. Sigzidfit I think has proposed something along these lines, in this thread. But personally I really am not able to vary the effects beyond this simple test. I have no knowledge of circuits and my only interest is really in the field model. Hopefully there are those in this forum who will do the required. I think Dr Stiffler has a varied circuit as well. Just not sure.

And the only contribution that I can make to this forum relates to the analysis of power that - I think - goes to the heart of the problem.
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#254
07-06-2009, 09:55 AM
 henieck Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 46
I used 65 turns, 30mm diameter, 100mm long, 3 Ohms coil, and the energy from field collapse recovered in Bedini style (can use empty capacitor 47000 microF). I can recover 11% of energy delivered during the “on” cycle this way. For measurements I use analog amp meter – I think it averages all right the relatively high frequency pulsating, unidirectional current, (but I may be wrong, can anybody please further address this?). So I think I must have higher than 3 Ohms resistance in my coil because too much goes into heat comparing to inductance. Another thing is that for initial experiments I still had original wire on my originally 300 Ohms resistor (that is why I asked about the core influence). It was still present underneath my new 3 Ohms wire, I was aware of that. Now I am going to get rid of the original wire (have to use diamond blade) and see if it changes anything. Anyhow – it was interesting to see, that when I had recovery capacitor connected (after the diode D1; capacitor’s minus connected to the plus of the battery)– the temperature on the resistor was +- proportionally lower than without the recovery circuit (the same energy input). I will check how it compares to your way or recovery later. So the circuit somehow “knew” that I was trying to collect the energy form the collapsing field – and lowered the temperature output accordingly It looks, like the principle “no matter how you turn, the ass is always in the back side” works all the time wonders for me. Also when I connect the flyback diode directly to the positive of the battery (comparing to no connection) – the total input amperes drop very little, ca 5% - so it is a quantity at least comparable to the energy recovered by the capacitor.( here it can be bigger mistake to use analog amp meter on DC range, I know, it. Now I realized, I forgot to change to AC range to include the other half way. Next time…). In the next phase I will check how it looks on sound card oscilloscope. For not too high frequency it can show surprisingly a lot. Don't worry, if I ever see any serious gain beyond possible error, or others reporting results similar to yours - I will organize much better equipment. For now I am trying to “trick” old Russian, scientific, analog multimeter first Btw, the fact that somebody has digital display doesn’t mean that the multimeter is digital. Anyhow- In the final analysis we may have only full battery, timer, thermometer and some patience. That is all what is needed to see even several percent anomaly in this circuit with very little room for making fundamental conceptual errors.
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#255
07-06-2009, 10:04 AM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
The following quote from TinselKoala from the link provided in his last post.

I suppose arrogance is a necessary concomitant of prevarication and mendacity, if one wants to enhance seeming credibility among the credulous. But it's the arrogant liers that are the worst, because they will never never admit that they are wrong and have been shovelling you a line of bs.

TinselKoala - I'm a great admirer of a good turn of phrase. This has got to be up there. Masterful description. If I have a criticism it is just that the terms 'prevarication' and 'mendacity' are a tad tautological. I suppose it can be argued that 'prevarication' doesn't go to the gullet with the same purity of sense as does 'mendacity'. So the two terms could be justified to lend each other more emphasis. In any event. Are these attributes proven to effective in promoting a lie? Have you used the technique? Can you recommend this? And when you use the word 'lier' do you in fact mean 'liar' - as used in English? The only other question I have is who is it you're describing?
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Last edited by witsend; 07-06-2009 at 10:44 AM.
#256
07-06-2009, 10:13 AM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
Hi henieck - I didn't realise you were Russian. I got it that you were from the Netherlands. Interesting. I can't comment on your set up because I'm not sure about the capacitor - but I get it that your ammeter is able to do the necessary? I was given to understand that all such are restricted to a lowish frequency. My first tests - very crude - were done with voltmeters - but they certainly worked.

What circuit are you testing? May I ask?
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#257
07-06-2009, 10:23 AM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
This from Donovan. I've simply copied his email. Hopefully Aaron, you could look to his registration? If you're reading this?

Also I see that henieck <http://www.energeticforum.com/members/henieck.html>, is seeing the field collapse now in a different way.

Here is a little something for all to think about.

According to Kirchoffs Laws (or as Dr Stiffler so rightfully stated rules of thumb...).
1. In a circuit, the current entering a circuit (as seen by the source) would be the same as the current leaving the circuit at that same instant in time, now
if we had our little experiment as follows. Dry Cell battery +ve connected in series with a switch which is connected in series with an ammeter which is in series with a coil ( inductor) which is in turn in series with another ammeter and then returns to the dry cell -ve terminal.
We would satisfy ourselves that this law seems correct.
2. Using the above setup as a reference, we can then say that the magnetic field forms when we close the switch.
3. Now as we all know when the switch is opened we see the reverse flow as the field collapses. If at this instant when the switch is opened and the two ends of the wire(battery disconnected) are shorted out we see the same current flow through our ammeters(reverse direction).
4. This then leads to a contradiction to or addition to Kirchoffs law not so? As we've put in 1unit of current, we got out 1unit of current at the same instant. Now if we disconnect the battery and short out the terminals, all of a sudden we have another unit !.
So the question then is, in classical terms, where did this extra energy come from ??
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#258
07-06-2009, 10:42 AM
 henieck Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 46
Quote:
 If you can persuade a manufacturer to make a robust diode with a tolerance in many thousands of volts - this system could also be applied for the average household uses.
- as I mentioned gas tube rectifiers and switches can handle any voltage or amperage you are capable to deliver and solid state devices cannot compare with them. In every place where really high parameters are required they are in use to this day because there is no other substitute for this. The technology is known to man for almost hundred years, so it is no obstacle to build even big heating plant.
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#259
07-06-2009, 11:09 AM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
henieck - if so, then this can definitely be applied everywhere. All that is needed is replication. Can I ask again, which circuit are you testing? Is it ours or some variation?
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#260
07-06-2009, 11:27 AM
 henieck Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 46
Quote:
 Originally Posted by witsend Hi henieck - I didn't realise you were Russian.
- I am not Russian - a have just happened to have a piece of Russian equipment inherited form my father who was a physicist. It is probably from the sixties. The more I use it the more respect I have to it. Of course I mainly play with today's small LCD display units but there is so many places to monitor that I find myself taking this additional "brick" over and over again. I am from Eastern Europe, Poland - now United Europe (so instead of listening to Moscow we are now doing everything like Brussels wants

I am playing with your circuit basically. Transistor 2SK1120, diode BY448, ca. 12V, 7Ah flooded, motorbike battery. 3W direct output heats my 15cm ceramic core 12’C above ambient within 15min, while only above 3.8 ‘C while powered by transistor with capturing the energy from the collapse (11% of the input). I used capacitor so I could more quickly and accurately determine the amount of energy recycled from the magnetic collapse, but I did it only in Bedini way so far, because I am more familiar with it and it allows me to use entirely empty capacitor. Capacitor is just like a small battery - but you can very quickly charge and discharge it completely. I am going to remake my coil for higher then 3 Ohms resistance now. I will com back to the exercise very soon.
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#261
07-06-2009, 11:34 AM
 henieck Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 46
Can anybody please explain how to insert image - because when I press this button system wants url address from me.
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#262
07-06-2009, 01:25 PM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881
TinselKoala - THE ONLY APPROPRIATE CIRCUIT DIAGRAM that I can assure you is correct is the diagram in the paper. And the flyback diode is a critical part of the system.

The circuit diagram in the Quantum article was prepared by Brian Buckley. I cannot comment on whether it is right or not as I simply cannot read it. I am hoping that Donovan will be able to comment in due course. I don't think he has even seen that article - as published.

But it is definitely required as without it we cannot 're-route' the collapsing fields back to the battery to recharge it.
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#263
07-06-2009, 02:34 PM
 TinselKoala Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 49
Quote:
 Originally Posted by witsend TinselKoala - THE ONLY APPROPRIATE CIRCUIT DIAGRAM that I can assure you is correct is the diagram in the paper. And the flyback diode is a critical part of the system. The circuit diagram in the Quantum article was prepared by Brian Buckley. I cannot comment on whether it is right or not as I simply cannot read it. I am hoping that Donovan will be able to comment in due course. I don't think he has even seen that article - as published. But it is definitely required as without it we cannot 're-route' the collapsing fields back to the battery to recharge it.

OK, so now we at least know that the Quantum diagram is WRONG--because, at minimum, it does not show the flyback diode. Nor does the Quantum article, as far as I can tell, even discuss this diode.

(The duty cycle generated by this circuit is also WRONG as anyone who can build it could tell you. But we'll ignore that for the moment, since nobody is using that circuit any more. Except perhaps those innocent experimenters who are trying to build what you have published, but aren't reading these threads.)

Now, since the Quantum article doesn't even mention the flyback diode, but in the EIT paper it is "definitely required"...yet these two documents seem to be describing exactly the same experimental runs...there is still an inconsistency that needs to be resolved.

And don't you think you should publish some kind of retraction or correction to the Quantum article, at least, since we now agree that the circuit diagram is in error and wasn't used to generate the experimental data in the paper?

I find your comment that you "simply cannot read" a simple circuit diagram in a paper that has your name on it, to be quite remarkable. Especially since you are teaching us about electronics.
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Last edited by TinselKoala; 07-06-2009 at 02:37 PM.
#264
07-06-2009, 03:12 PM
 TinselKoala Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 49
And one final note on the duty cycle issue:

I refer here to the EIT paper, circuit diagram labelled Figure 1 Circuit Schematic Diagram.

Oscilloscope Channel A is shown monitoring the load at its connection to the positive battery rail.

When the voltage at this point is HIGH--at battery voltage--the mosfet is OFF and the load is non-conducting. When the voltage at this point dips, it means that the MOSFET has turned ON and conducts through the load to ground.

An oscilloscope connected here will report a 3.7 percent ON duty cycle--that is, signal HIGH 3.7 percent of the time--when the mosfet is OFF 3.7 percent of the time.

This fact is independent of whether the circuit is driven by a function generator or a 555 or even a reed switch.

If your power calculations are using the 3.7 percent ON figure taken from an oscilloscope connected as in the EIT paper, Figure 1, they are in error--because a HIGH reading here means the mosfet is OFF.

Now I can't quite figure out just how you did your power calculations--for some reason the phrase "integrating the instantaneous power waveform" doesn't seem to appear in your description of the process. Could you "walk us through" the exact process you used, perhaps with some sample data, so we can try to understand if your power method was equivalent to one that someone trained in electronics might use?
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#265
07-06-2009, 03:21 PM
 lionhart Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2
Hi all, just started to read all these posts, with some interest.

And, don't know if this is relevant but you can stack MOSFETS to get more current through them. unlike bipolar tranys which will run away with current if you stack them, MOSFETS will increases resistance as they heat up, so to decrease current heating just parallel them as many as you need.
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Last edited by lionhart; 07-06-2009 at 03:25 PM.
#266
07-06-2009, 03:29 PM
 DrStiffler Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 948
How one looks at it

@All

Well I have been trying to stay away and out of the fuss, but I will add 2 cents more and hobble back to my lab.

IMO

We do not have a Free Running device here, I see where no one has claimed such, so that is put to bed.

IMO

The issure of energy returning to the battery, well its all in how you look at it. Are you an optimist or a pessimist, is your bank account 1/2 full or is it 1/2 empty, this means different think to different people.

IMO

The only issue I see and care about is after the end of the day have I moved more Heat out of the circuit than I input from the PSU? If so we have something, if not we are playing games here.

IMO

So why isn't every interested party looking for the true possible benefit from this circuit? Hey I know a couple of Styrofoam cups will not win you a Nobel, but it will get you a ticket.

IMO

Lets prove it of disprove it. Don't we all have anything else in our lives to do but expound rhetoric?
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#267
07-06-2009, 04:16 PM
 witsend Gold Member Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,881

Regarding battery recharge - I get it that there is some question to the actual charge of the battery. I'll get back to this. I want to refer to the BP report which details the results.

And lionhart - I've actually tried mosfets in parallel. It never quite worked - unless we were doing it wrong. If the one blows they all blow. It was quite an expensive exercise. Could be that we stressed them too far. Used on our ac tests from a utility supply source.
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#268
07-06-2009, 06:02 PM
 Michael John Nunnerley Gold Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,193
BP report

Quote:
 Originally Posted by witsend Hi Dr Stiffler - Your comments are noted and your advice good. Do hope you read Donovan's email - thread 258. Regarding battery recharge - I get it that there is some question to the actual charge of the battery. I'll get back to this. I want to refer to the BP report which details the results. And lionhart - I've actually tried mosfets in parallel. It never quite worked - unless we were doing it wrong. If the one blows they all blow. It was quite an expensive exercise. Could be that we stressed them too far. Used on our ac tests from a utility supply source.
Hi Rose
Is it possible to get a copy of this report because it sure would be of benifit especially if as it should show all the circuit set up and testing points etc etc as well as the results

Mike
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#269
07-06-2009, 06:06 PM
 Michael John Nunnerley Gold Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,193
Oh and valves are the best, I have my faithfull yaesu 101 with final output as valves and it never fails me,100watts output always and now it is old

Mike
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#270
07-06-2009, 06:19 PM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 10,756
posting pics

Quote:
 Originally Posted by henieck Can anybody please explain how to insert image - because when I press this button system wants url address from me.
Henieck,

When writing a message here, click this icon:

You can then enter a URL (web address) to where your picture is. If you don't have a personal website, you can upload pics for free at a site like photobucket.com.

You can attach pics, but the attachment space for each account here is very low so I'd recommend hosting your pics elsewhere.
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Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

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