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Old 01-31-2010, 10:53 PM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
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Are Dolphins and other Marine Mammals Sentient Beings?

Here is an excellent vid:

YouTube - Life: Bottlenose dolphins mud-ring feeding

This would appear to me to be dolphins adapting to a changing situation in food supply, by using their intelligence (the fisheries in South Florida are crashing rapidly now). Is that a definition of "sentience"?

One thing we should remember, is that our own "brand" of sentience may not be the "universal" brand

True story:

3 days ago , while sailing off Key West with my visiting sister in my 22' boat, i was telling her this story (...explaining the above YouTube). JUST AS I WAS TELLING HER THIS, at least 5 dolphins came up to the boat, swimming around us in a circle over and over; getting very close to the bow of the boat as they did so (we were heeled over and cruising along pretty good at that point). They stayed with us for about 10 mins, and my sister got some great footage (which when she gets home will send me for posting here). I got to look one dead in the eye as he/she went by.. The entire thing was thrilling beyond words.

WEIRD coincidence that they would come just then, lol... It has been pretty rare that i see them in such numbers, or that they circle the boat (often i will see a pair or two off in the distance during a day sailing). In over 20 years sailing in the area (or anywhere for that matter), this was the FIRST time i was ever treated to such a show

I am almost inclined to think they KNEW i was talking about them, and that i was suggesting to my sister they were "sentient beings"... And so came to make a point, lol... But that could be stretching it a bit.

There are many unique and interesting stories about animals, like the tamed elephant in Indonesia who suddenly grabbed her Mahout with her truck and threw him up onto her back, then ran uphill as fast as she could... Only a few minutes before the terrible tsunami hit several years ago... Saving his life.

Are marine mammals, and perhaps other animals, "sentient beings"?
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:58 PM
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dolphins from the future

Maybe humans evolved later with some the sun dying out or whatever.
Some went underground and some went back towards the water.
With time travel technology, perhaps the dolphins were brought back in time
and put in water to survive so that when we, through multiple chances
to get it right, will alter the course of the future for the better. That would
prevent them from ever developing (dolphins) and to preserve that
evolved life, they were allowed to come back and coexist.
Maybe they're "descendents" of a certain kind.
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:58 PM
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From a
Dolphins are the descendants of aliens that came to Earth in UFOs 100,000 years ago, a leading researcher reports.

I know it sounds crazy but it’s true,” said the fame marine biologist Hsu Sen-sung. “We’ve always known that dolphins were extremely intelligent but now, for the first time, we know why.

“These magnificent creatures are highly-evolved life forms that came to Earth from a distant planet.

“And from what I understand, the civilization they left behind was even more advanced than our own.”

The Beijing-based expert’s report to a gathering of scientists and reporters met with some skepticism but he provided strong evidence to support his claims.

Dramatic new studies suggest that some dolphins score higher on IQ tests than human beings. Hsu himself claims to have been communicating with a pair of the creatures telepathically since last December.

The expert was vague when asked to explain how he managed to crack the communications barrier with dolphins. He did say that the breakthrough came when a male dolphin at a marine research facility “grew close to one of my assistants and established a telepathic link that enabled it to put thoughts into her head.

“Full understanding of their thoughts and feelings came in fits and starts but we now seem to be on a common verbal ground,” said Hsu.

“The dolphins have made it clear that their ancestors came here 100,000 years ago to escape pollution on their home planet.

“But their starships – as well as the technological know-how that allowed them to save themselves – have long since vanished. Ironically, the pollution that drove them here so many years ago is now threatening their existence once again.

“As our own oceans become more and more polluted, dolphins kills are being reported around the world.

“But they no longer have the means to help themselves. They need us to find a solution for them.”

Hsu acknowledged that the Chinese government is considering how it might be able to assist dolphins.

But he would neither confirm nor deny that officials have quietly requested the help of the United States in solving the dolphins’ dilemma.

“These creatures have much to teach us,” he said. “We must do something to save them from extinction while we still have a chance.”
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:04 AM
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I left something out of the above post and have edited and saved it twice but it's not showing up. Anyway I had intended to say 'From a Google source and that my wife talks a lot about this. I also knew a person who channeled Dolphins. They are a very playful and intelligent bunch.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:52 AM
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dolphins

And I thought it was only my idea that they may be from elsewhere.
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:19 AM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
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I'd say there are a few problems with the suggestion dolphins are "transplants" from another planet.

Ever go to a Natural History Museum (such as the one that is part of the Smithsonian), and see a skeleton of a dolphin / porpoise? Besides the scull (which is not that all different anyway), it is surprisingly human-looking.

Also, there are the Cetaceans; who share much of the intelligence of the dolphins; and much of their physiology such as sonar capability, specialized breathing holes, and the lay-out of their fins (which suggest strong similarities to evolved land mammal limbs; as can be seen in the skeletons).

It would be pretty amazing to have such parallel developments in evolution, on different planets... Or else all the cetaceans and porpoises came here together, and had very similar DNA and evolution to Earth species? Or possibly engineered DNA, i guess.

Who knows

All i know is, that when you watch that above linked video, it is hard to think of these beings as "dumb animals" that are here for us to harvest as we please... Most of them that are killed, dying in ways that could be remedied without much trouble or cost.

I think it is possible to have sentience in totally non-technological species (especially with creatures who don't have hands, opposing thumbs, or anything similar to use).. Our definition of it always seems to include technology, but what if there is something equally as good as technology, that we don't even understand? ... Something that is based on what many would call "ESP"... That can accomplish all the needed things that technology does for us without all the pollution, destruction, and endless struggle?

What if through our incredible hubris, our ignorant self-centeredness, we destroy them before learning this incredible secret from them? ...This way to master the universe without technology?

Who is the "dumb animal" then lol?
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:34 AM
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Dolphin bubble rings

Jibbguy,

Not sure if you've seen this but these air ring bubbles the dolphins
make are INCREDIBLE!

YouTube - Dolphin play bubble rings
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbguy View Post
Here is an excellent vid:

YouTube - Life: Bottlenose dolphins mud-ring feeding

This would appear to me to be dolphins adapting to a changing situation in food supply, by using their intelligence (the fisheries in South Florida are crashing rapidly now). Is that a definition of "sentience"?

One thing we should remember, is that our own "brand" of sentience may not be the "universal" brand

True story:

3 days ago , while sailing off Key West with my visiting sister in my 22' boat, i was telling her this story (...explaining the above YouTube). JUST AS I WAS TELLING HER THIS, at least 5 dolphins came up to the boat, swimming around us in a circle over and over; getting very close to the bow of the boat as they did so (we were heeled over and cruising along pretty good at that point). They stayed with us for about 10 mins, and my sister got some great footage (which when she gets home will send me for posting here). I got to look one dead in the eye as he/she went by.. The entire thing was thrilling beyond words.

WEIRD coincidence that they would come just then, lol... It has been pretty rare that i see them in such numbers, or that they circle the boat (often i will see a pair or two off in the distance during a day sailing). In over 20 years sailing in the area (or anywhere for that matter), this was the FIRST time i was ever treated to such a show

I am almost inclined to think they KNEW i was talking about them, and that i was suggesting to my sister they were "sentient beings"... And so came to make a point, lol... But that could be stretching it a bit.

There are many unique and interesting stories about animals, like the tamed elephant in Indonesia who suddenly grabbed her Mahout with her truck and threw him up onto her back, then ran uphill as fast as she could... Only a few minutes before the terrible tsunami hit several years ago... Saving his life.

Are marine mammals, and perhaps other animals, "sentient beings"?
Main Entry: sen·tient
Pronunciation: \ˈsen(t)-sh(ē-)ənt, ˈsen-tē-ənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel
Date: 1632

1 : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions <sentient beings>
2 : aware
3 : finely sensitive in perception or feeling


Based on the webster definition above and the video link you posted, I would say the dolphins are most definitely sentient beings.

Many years ago I TRV'ed a deer. Specifically I TRV'ed his brain/mind during the time between when he was shot and died, about a 10 second period.

It was amazing.

Without looking up the session data I will share some highlights that have stuck with me all these years:

He immediately thought about the different possible escape routes he could take...which trail, which one was closest, etc.

Then he realized he had been tricked.

He knew he should not be out in the open field at this time of day.

He realized that the doe urine trail he was following was a trick and not from an actual doe...he had had some doubts about it earlier, but now he knew for sure.

There was a bunch more data...but the above is what I vividly recall.

Definitely showing a thought process (consciousness) much more evolved than I would have guessed.

I have also TRV'ed dogs, wolfs and horses (none of them being killed) and they all had a higher level of consciousness than normally ascribed to them.

This is a huge subject...I know there is a post somewhere on the forum here referencing some studies of dogs and cats knowing that their "owners" are on the way home when they are still miles away.

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Old 02-01-2010, 03:34 AM
Nadda Nadda is offline
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That is soo amazing. I didnt even know you could do that with air...It didnt even float upwards...amazing


As far as evolution, I would think all planetary evolution would be the same as far as each beings structure. Size and skin would vary i guess on gravity and atmosphere.

In my mind, i dont believe animals would evolve into a creature with 8 legs and be superior in intelligence compared to humans. Evolution revolves around efficiency as well as survival. If intelligent creatures had brains that took millennia to evolve dont you think over that time span they would have realized that they needed a human form or at least fingers, to build shelter for themselves, to ensure ultimate survival.

If humans were theoretically forced to live under water, I would imagine they would evolve fins and gills, however to lose their hands in my mind would be DeEvolution. Dolphins cant build nets, thats why they have to create mud rings. If they had hands, they could builds nets and much much more.

I think this is also why when you think of the word alien, the universal form is human looking. The extraterrestrials that have evolved to obtain supreme intelligence have also evolved into the most efficient form for survival. The human form. We have the intelligence to exist anywhere, and the capability to travel anywhere, in the universe.


This is from my very short perspective of life, god only knows what really happens during millennia of time. These are just my far out assumptions.

Last edited by Nadda : 02-01-2010 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbguy View Post
it is hard to think of these beings as "dumb animals" that are here for us to harvest as we please... Most of them that are killed, dying in ways that could be remedied without much trouble or cost.

What if through our incredible hubris, our ignorant self-centeredness, we destroy them before learning this incredible secret from them? ...This way to master the universe without technology?

Who is the "dumb animal" then lol?
A few days ago I watched the video movie The Cove. It showed a cove in Japan where local fishermen herded dolphins in from the sea, closed the entrance to the cove with a large net, and then slaughtered them. They had been carrying this on for years, and selling the meat to area schools for use in school lunches. The Japanese government, and local police, were complicit and agressively worked to keep intruders away from the slaughter area. The person who made this documentary film was the trainer on the TV series Flipper. He loved these animals, but after one of the dolphins of the Flipper series died (the animal chose to die, he claims, by refusing to take another breath), he decided that dolphins should never be made captive. Since then, he has actively dedicated his life to freeing captive dolphins worldwide. Aside from the gruesome slaughter scenes, the movie showed some beautifully done segments that really captured the magnificence of the dolphins. A must watch, if you haven't seen it already. There is no doubt that these are highly intelligent creatures who have thoughts, feelings, and a wide range of special abilities.
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:34 PM
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Here are some of my thoughts engendered by the above posts. If consciousness continues after physical death, what difference does it make if a body can live on both land and sea or be able to move to a different planet? If an incarnate being lives in harmony with his surroundings (unlike man who constantly tries to manipulate and exploit his surroundings), who is to say that being is less evolved?

Nadda, why do dolphins have to build mud rings? (Sorry, missed watching the video before I posted. I've seen them do the same thing with air bubbles.) Why would they have to build nets? What they do seems to work just fine. If they only consume what they need to survive, what would be the use for stockpiling fish in nets? From my observations, they are perfectly adapted to the environment in which they live and are perfectly capable of harvesting the bounty of the ocean to get what they need. They also seem very happy. IMO, the only thing they could possibly need hands for is to build weapons to defend themselves from our selfish slaughter of them (which they may already be developing but the timescale required may be too long for us to notice?). They may be developing stronger sonar to make a loud enough noise to scare away fishing vessels, or razor sharp appendages on one or more of their fins to cut through netting. Nature has ingenious ways of helping the more vulnerable to defeat their adversaries. It doesn't necessarily have to be hands and opposable thumbs. Ants outnumber and outweigh us. Couldn't it be that they are way more advanced and evolved than we are? They build incredible shelters and will most likely survive anything nature can throw at them more easily than we can. I'd be willing to bet that if we decide to migrate to another planet, they'll find a way to hitch a ride.

Actually, we don't have the means to travel "anywhere in the universe" that I know of, at least not physically. Also, what makes you think actual extraterrestials are all humanoid in appearance? It's much easier for Hollywood to portray all aliens as humanoid because a costume will fit better and it will be easier to make the "alien" move in what we would feel would be a natural way. Some would argue that our ego is what makes us assume/assign humanoid thoughts/features/actions to alien beings and God. And, I would argue that the question of whether mankind as we know it today evolved or was seeded by beings from another planet has yet to be fully answered. There is strong evidence on both sides.

I read a story told by the person who owned the dog that during the period he owned the dog, he was living with his mother. They both worked odd hours and had other interests that brought them home at different times which they did not communicate with each other. He noticed that his mom would always have something warm (coffee or food) fixed for him when he got home and finally asked her how she knew when to fix these things for him. She told him that the dog always went to the door about 15 minutes before he showed up. He started paying attention then and realized the dog did the same thing before his mom came home. They verified that often they would be coming from different directions and that there was no way for the dog to hear the car coming or anything similar. He cited one incident when his mom was out of town and came home a day or two earlier than he expected. The dog knew by something other than what could be attributed to the normal five senses.

Last edited by ImBill : 02-01-2010 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbguy View Post
I'd say there are a few problems with the suggestion dolphins are "transplants" from another planet.

Ever go to a Natural History Museum (such as the one that is part of the Smithsonian), and see a skeleton of a dolphin / porpoise? Besides the scull (which is not that all different anyway), it is surprisingly human-looking.

Also, there are the Cetaceans; who share much of the intelligence of the dolphins; and much of their physiology such as sonar capability, specialized breathing holes, and the lay-out of their fins (which suggest strong similarities to evolved land mammal limbs; as can be seen in the skeletons).

It would be pretty amazing to have such parallel developments in evolution, on different planets... Or else all the cetaceans and porpoises came here together, and had very similar DNA and evolution to Earth species? Or possibly engineered DNA, i guess.

Who knows

snip /\ ....
There are things I've read that say humans were also brought here long ago. Try searching for info on Anunaki and gold. IMO there are a lot of holes in Darwin's theory of evolution. Alien intervention in human evolution would explain a lot of things. Don't tell anyone I said that though

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Old 02-01-2010, 09:29 PM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
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So far there is only one significant "hole" in the Theory of Evolution that i am aware of (although this is certainly a hot topic in science nowadays)...

And that is a motor flagellum seen in certain cells, that could not have evolved independently because they are literally rotating motors with 5 separate "parts" to them (the flagellum arm rotates like a propeller.. and there is an electrical impulse "Rotor assy" and a "stator assy" that powers it)...

All of which must operate perfectly for the "motor" to work... In other words there could be no "logical progression" with this motor, because any interim stage of evolution would have been useless to the cell's needs... So somehow, the whole "assy" must have sprang forth simultaniously... "somehow" is the key word here lol.

There are other parts of cellular make-up that are claimed to be non-evolutionary as well, however there have also been rather good debunkings on them which i found convincing; or at least enough that it is a "wash". But so far the "motor flagellum" has not been sufficiently explained away in my book without "Intelligent Design".. And i can't imagine how they will

That one is a very sticky problem for scientists to answer.

Most of the people i've talked to about this are "black-and-whiter's"... Which i alway find depressing lol. It is not LOGICAL to claim NO EVOLUTION. I am afraid the data exists in huge reams for it; and denying it is rather Quixotic. Is it ALL EXCLUSIVELY "evolution"? That is the true question, imo.

Last edited by jibbguy : 02-02-2010 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:11 AM
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I used to attend a 'Circle of Angels' given by Paula Peterson and knew her well. You may find her web site of interest here: Earthcode: Dolphin-Human Connection This particular link discusses the Human Dolphin connection. I guess human DNA is closer to Dolphin DNA than any other (including apes). Also this link on her site discusses another possiblity on the origins of humans in the Bock Saga link here. Just one of many interesting takes on this I've seen.
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:02 AM
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Hi Jibb;

Here are some more examples for you that blow holes in evolutionary theory;

YouTube - Melipona Bee Defies Evolution

Amazing Animals that Defy Evolution

YouTube - Bombardier Beetle Defies Evolution

Al
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:27 AM
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Intelligently Designed Evolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbguy View Post
And that is a motor flagellum seen in certain cells, that could not have evolved independently because they are literally rotating motors with 5 separate "parts" to them (the flagellum arm rotates like a propeller.. and there is an electrical impulse "Rotor assy" and a "stator assy" that powers it)...
Irreducible complexity, I have a great video somewhere that shows all
of this and it is very interesting.

Evolution is not a strict linear phenomena. Look at Galapagos
Islands. The diving iguanas and the birds with stubs for wings. Too far
to fly anywhere to lost the ability. I would not say it is degeneration
or de-evolution, it is simply become what is necessary for the environment.

I believe in both evolution and creation. We are created through
intelligently guided evolution. I think that every bit of biology and
the DNA is influenced by information in the "thought aether" and all
biological function takes its cues and instructions for that - so memory
isn't in the brain, it is in the aether and our brain is the transceiver just
like a radio isn't the waves, it is the transceiver.

If enough human beings started to INTEND that we should grow a
finger out of our forehead for some needed function, that intention could
create a strong enough organization of potential in the collective that
the probability increases high enough that the genetics are influenced
by that information and start to "mutate" in order to conform to the
intention of what is needed.

That is the model of evolution I developed 15 years ago and found
that a similar concept is taught by Sheldrake and others like him and
Lipton points to that kind of biological influence by consciousness. I
only found out about them a few years ago.

If there is enough need for a certain biological function and the probability
in the collective is high enough for that certain function to come about
by the collective's influence on the DNA, the DNA can transform so that
virtually instantaneously (quantum leap) the biology changes very quickly
instead of slow progressive growth - so, the 5 separate parts could
be genetically passed on and manifest in new cells instantly instead of
"evolving" piece by piece.

So that is the intelligence behind the evolution. Both are correct and both
are unable to be separated from each other. It is Intelligently Designed
Evolution.

Anyway, that is my story and I'm sticking to it! lol
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Old 02-02-2010, 05:42 AM
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Hi ewizard;

Quote:
Dolphins are the descendants of aliens that came to Earth in UFOs 100,000 years ago, a leading researcher reports.

I know it sounds crazy but it’s true,” said the fame marine biologist Hsu Sen-sung. “We’ve always known that dolphins were extremely intelligent but now, for the first time, we know why.

“These magnificent creatures are highly-evolved life forms that came to Earth from a distant planet.

“And from what I understand, the civilization they left behind was even more advanced than our own.”

The Beijing-based expert’s report to a gathering of scientists and reporters met with some skepticism but he provided strong evidence to support his claims.
Consider the source of this nonsense and the comments about it;

DOLPHINS ARE ALIENS*|*Weekly World News

Al
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:29 AM
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Hi Aaron;

I have seen some video's on irreducible complexity also and believe it is proof of creation as stated, regardless of the outcome in the Dover, Pa. trial. The problem with the debunker's is they never back up far enough, as here;

YouTube - Irreducible Complexity (bacterial flagellum) debunked

Miller gives no explanation of where these proteins came from in the first place or how 10 of them magically got together to form this functioning "killer cell", much less 50 getting together to form this "motor".

With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, your "thought aether" theory is also so full of holes it won't hold water.

First here is a clip about those iguanas;

Galapagos Islands 101: What is a marine iguana?

In addition to figuring out to spit out the salt, which otherwise would build up in their bodies and kill them, how long did it take them to adapt their intestinal tract to eat the algae they have to dive so deep for and how did they find it to start with? Seems to me they would have been dead long before they managed any of these things, so the most logical answer is they were created that way, just like the Melipona bee et al. Nature abounds with examples of these kinds.

As to birds a recent 30 year study of the Galapagos finches which Darwin focused on has shown that they are all the same finch species and their beak size went up and down according to climatic conditions and the varying food supply it caused, not different species on the different islands as he proposed, which caused the different size beaks.

As for the "Thought aether" working on or for people we should all have 3 arms by now as most could use another and have thought about it to some extent. And how about a second penis like that iguana?(I wonder how he thought that into existence ) I'm sure men have thought about that subject long enough that the aether should have done something about it in some form by now.

Why haven't people like Eskimos or Lapps in Northern climates grown fur coats like bears or dogs? Instead,they put on fur coats and do their own adapting, and that's what happens; adaptation, like the iguana growing longer claws to hold onto the slippery rocks instead of growing more fingers or legs.

This theory also has the same problem as the Irreducible Complexity debunker: where did the "thought aether" come from and how long to evolve to thinking and transmitting?

Sorry, but as with evolution, I don't think so.

Al
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:11 AM
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agree to disagree

Sorry, there is zero proof that it is "full of holes". The evidence points
more to there being aether/matrix. Most other ideas have less evidence
to support it such as most conventional concepts in virtually all the
textbooks.

They were created that way? That is the popular creationist perspective.

However, it is a faith based perspective. It is a scientific fact that the
mind and it's intention influences our cells down to the genetic level.

I wasn't talking about finches.

"Flightless cormorant perched on volcanic coastline. In the absence of predators and thus not needing to fly, the flightless cormorants wings have degenerated to the point that it has lost the ability to fly, however it can swim superbly and is a capable underwater hunter. Punta Albemarle."
http://www.oceanlight.com/lr/full/9e...d17c998c0f.jpg

Please do NOT tell me that this is a small size change from the temperature.
The BIRDS WINGS HAVE ALL SHRUNK TO STUBBS!

YouTube - RDF TV - Vestigial Organs: The Wings of the Flightless Cormorant - Richard Dawkins

3 Arms? That is your opinion based on what you would consider something
that there has been enough consciousness focused on. The amount of
people throughout the history of mankind that have put any effort into
desiring a 3rd arm is probably very slim.

The finger out the forehead is obviously an exaggerated example of the
concept but it would happen if there is ENOUGH probability for that to
happen - the probability climbs with the collective intention for that
particular need.

There is actually evidence, biological measurable evidence of the influence
on our biology by consciousness alone. But you're free to believe what
you want of course.

You must understand what potential and probability are and you must
consider the scientific facts that have been established to that firmly
shows that our thoughts have a measurable on physical reality.

So the amount of intention that is needed to actually do those things I
believe would be incredibly huge. And I don't mean a bunch of people just
aware of the idea. I'm talking about concerted laser focus like
LIFE DEPENDS ON IT - that is SURVIVAL and what makes us SURVIVE
strengthens us.

How many people are organized and are doing one specific organized
task as if their life actually did depend on it? Maybe a lot maybe a little,
but doing something as if one's life depended on it tends to really, really,
really increase the probability of it happening.

I also did NOT imply that I think a HUMAN BEING is in need of any physical
enhancement to what we currently have. I think we are in the final physical form as we are.

I personally believe this form that we are in now is the destined form that
God had in mind for us and that being God - the one that contains all that
was drawn from in order to have the different folders in filing cabinets in
the "matrix" that represent each species, variation of species, etc...

Sorry but you assumed a lot of things about my perspective just because
I believe that the mind has some say so in it and that the mind has been
feeding this reality from the beginning of thought itself.

We have a different role to play than the animals and our development
was assisted by this Supreme Intelligence in a most favored way. In my
opinion of course.

God has a substance through which he works his will and everything is
connected to it. You're of course free to believe it just happens without
a medium for his will and intention to be communicated.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:15 AM
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ps

btw, I'm not showing that video to support Darwin because I don't
agree with Darwin's evolution as it is.

It is simply a video to show you a bird that lost its wings

It couldn't fly anywhere and all the intention guided by the Supreme
Intelligence caused the DNA to switch different genes off and on
in order to reduce the wings little by little to what they are now.
In however many years, they will probably lose them completely,
could be a long time but it is the mind that has been determining
what the biology does or not. If those birds were put in Oregon or
whatever, eventually over a while, they see there is somewhere to
fly and little by little over many years, the wings grow bigger and bigger.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:37 AM
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Hi Aaron;

Briefly, as I need some sleep, the idea of no predators and nowhere to go doesn't work. Cormorants normally nest in trees so that"s one place to go. And if they got there by flying before they lost their wings why not just fly back? Or how else did they get there that prevented a return trip?

As for predators Ostriches, emus, kiwis,penguins, etc. don't fly and they are around plenty of predators. And why are there none there? Couldn't God leave them out when he made the islands?

And yes, I am unabashedly a creationist as it makes infinitely more sense to me than any evolution theory.

As for the mind and it's influence why are people in general suddenly getting shorter when the trend for at least the last thousand years has been to grow taller? What are we thinking to cause that?

As to God, his creation of man and his influence on us we are probably more in agreement than not.

More later.

Al
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:04 PM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
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Thanks Antiquer for the links a few posts above, but i've seen that and lots more from the source, and they are still not convincing.

The beetle, and bee, can be explained by Evolutionary Theory (i am being Devils Advocate here, lol.. not making judgments).

> We don't know if there was another insect before that handled pollination of Vanilla, that is now gone. In fact the orchid probably evolved the protective covering to stop insects in the first place. There are ants, and mites tiny enough to get in there with no problem. Other insects eat the tiny ones, and pollinate that way. The bees could have segued over from another food source to this one over time. The idea this is the "only" possible explanation is way wrong... there are dozens.

> There are other beetles and insects that shoot chemicals which may just be unpleasant but not explosive; it is hardly unique in that way even Skunks have something similar, and they all "pulse" which is the way that animals' bodies work as it is more efficient. And the beetle could have had another method of protection that it lost once this one was evolved.

This is why the cellular-level stuff, and especially the motor flagellum, is the most important proof imo... as Aaron reminded me of, the "Irreducible complexity" factor. Which about the ONLY thing that cannot be readily explained by alternative factors.

So my original statement stands, there is only one "hole" that has no credible alternate explanation that i have seen despite a lot of research on this. But all it takes is one lol
_________________________


Getting back to topic,

It is not necessary for Dolphins or any Cetaetions to be Aliens for them to be sentient beings!!

I would almost suspect more deliberate dis-info campaigns put up on the Internet to change the subject away from their sentience to "woo-woo" type alien stories so that the basic truth of their RIGHTS AS SENTIENT BEINGS is obscured by the controversy around making such wild and unsubstantiated claims (and claims that simply cannot be substantiated, as the only proof revolves around such things as telepathy and empathic ESP).

You see, as long as the basic thought is obscured by the ridiculous-sounding claims, there is a perfect reason for scientifically minded people to simply dismiss the ENTIRE SUBJECT !!

Don't judge this from your own points of view.. Look at it from the mainstreams' who outnumber us in their thought patterns by the Billions. It certainly DOES sound "woo-woo" to them.. And it certainly does distract and detract from the basic message of:

"Wow, we are faced with a sentient species right here in our oceans, and have to do something about it before they are destroyed by our folly and indifference!"

And in this particular case, such an admittance of sentience would change MANY things.. Even in the way people think, and they way they view religion. There are "valid" reasons for them to suppress the concept; as much as there is to suppress actual space aliens.

These are very commonly seen tactics used all over the web, on a dozen different subjects: To deflect from the actual subject by injecting outrageous-sounding claims that turn most people off.

____________

Back to being "Off-subject" (at least partially lol):

There are examples of this tactic going around THIS genre right now: WITTS and Orion Project come to mind (with Greer's recent claims of "his" scientist being kidnapped and held in a secret NWO bunker). Sorry if some who support these groups are angered by this, it is not a reflection on YOU AT ALL!

PLEASE UNDERSTAND the only ones at fault here AT ALL are the cynical bastards who take the very valuable concept of decent people everywhere for getting along with our fellow humans:

"Giving a person a chance, by taking them at their word until proved otherwise."

And perverting it to their disgusting purposes. These are the ONLY "people" to blame in this case. Lets be clear, these tactics do not reflect on people "caught up" by their deliberate lies, only on the sociopath a-holes behind them. Once this is UNDERSTOOD AND ACCEPTED, this tactic is totally useless.

WE NEED TO GET THIS MESSAGE OUT, they are using this same tactic over and over in a dozen different genres... As it is their BEST means of countering new thought processes that lead to questioning authority.

They realized the old methods of controlling people's thoughts are not working as good any more. They see their OWN PEOPLE losing their determination and surety of mind, as cognitive dissonance erodes away the "singing ability of the choir".... This tactic also makes it easier for the died-in-the-wool "copper tops" in the "choir" to say to themselves:

"Yes, i am still right to ignore and not believe these things, despite all the evidence i have been seeing lately, this stuff sounds so ridiculous, it must obviously be false".

And that is the dual purpose of the "absurdity gambit" tactic, to turn new people off to these ideas, and to maintain their current base of believers.
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
It [flightless cormorant] couldn't fly anywhere and all the intention guided by the Supreme Intelligence caused the DNA to switch different genes off and on in order to reduce the wings little by little to what they are now. In however many years, they will probably lose them completely, could be a long time but it is the mind that has been determining what the biology does or not. If those birds were put in Oregon or whatever, eventually over a while, they see there is somewhere to fly and little by little over many years, the wings grow bigger and bigger.
Hi Aaron,

This concept is rather interesting. What I am wondering is that if these birds felt it was too far for them to fly anywhere else, then how were they (or their progenitors) able to fly to the Galapagos Islands in the first place? If they came there from someplace else, then they would have had the ability to either return to that place, or to go elsewhere. Should we assume that they originated in the Galapagos? If so, and if they had a longing desire to travel to an elsewhere distant shore, why wouldn't they have developed extra large wings over time? Wouldn't we have to assume, then, that they were simply content to stay where they were, believing it was the ultimate feeding and nesting ground?

Just wondering,

Rick

Last edited by rickoff : 02-02-2010 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 02-02-2010, 10:09 PM
ImBill ImBill is offline
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Hi Aaron,

This concept is rather interesting. What I am wondering is that if these birds felt it was too far for them to fly anywhere else, then how were they (or their progenitors) able to fly to the Galapagos Islands in the first place?
Perhaps knowledge of where and how the Galapagos Islands first appeared would be helpful. Couldn't it be that they were once closer to a land mass where cormorants lived, moved freely back and forth for millenia, and that as the islands moved farther away, the cormorants that had made it their home had less and less reason to fly? We're here, we have what we need, why bother with the long flight when we can just stay here and watch the boobies?

A couple of years ago, I was watching a nature show (maybe Planet Earth series?) about a fish in South America. The male and female of the species jump out of the water at the same time. The male, using the cohesiveness of the water molecules carried with them, sticks to the leaf with the female under him while they mate. The female lays her eggs on the leaf and they both drop back into the water. Over the next few days (not sure how long exactly), the male stays under the leaf, splashing water up onto the eggs with his tail to keep them from drying out with a great degree of accuracy. As the babies hatch, they use the water being splashed up to drop down into the creek/river under the leaf. Whenever I think about this example, I am baffled by how such a thing could possibly occur via evolution. I'm sure it is possible as I believe that there are infinite possibilities. It just staggers my mind to think that such a thing would occur as a result of random chance.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:05 PM
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shorter/bigger

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANTIQUER View Post
As for the mind and it's influence why are people in general suddenly getting shorter when the trend for at least the last thousand years has been to grow taller? What are we thinking to cause that?
Lower oxygen and stronger gravity for the most part for the overall trend.
Oxygen was estimated to be up to 50% or more compared to our 21%
average now... (as low as 12% in some big cities - getting close to
inducing unconsciousness - literally). Earth has been adding mass for
many ages. There are x tons of "space dust" that is added DAILY to
the Earth's mass. Not everything is burned up in the atmosphere. We are
bringing in mass by the tons. This mass and the properties of the Earth
will have stronger gravity effect on mass on the surface of the planet.
Stronger gravity, little by little gives more resistance to the upward growth
and lower oxygen stunts growth.

Actually not everyone is getting shorter, that isn't true. Many areas of
the world where they are eating a lot of western food like beef with hormones,
they're getting bigger.

When I was little in Japan on the military bases, the Japanese kids off base
were about my size. Look at them now, graduating from high school, they're
getting as big as American kids. This has been visible over just a few
generations. But of course that isn't natural, it is by hormones injected
into the cows, hormones from milk, etc... But diet does have a lot to do
with it.

To me, the aether is the "Breath of Life".
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:10 PM
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dolphins

Quote:
Originally Posted by jibbguy View Post
It is not necessary for Dolphins or any Cetaetions to be Aliens for them to be sentient beings!!

I would almost suspect more deliberate dis-info campaigns put up on the Internet to change the subject away from their sentience to "woo-woo" type alien stories so that the basic truth of their RIGHTS AS SENTIENT BEINGS is obscured by the controversy around making such wild and unsubstantiated claims (and claims that simply cannot be substantiated, as the only proof revolves around such things as telepathy and empathic ESP).
I agree no need for them to be aliens. But for the record, my own personal
mention of it is my own personal innovation of an idea that didn't come from
a story of dolphins coming from another planet - it is an exploration in
possibilities of an entire evolution/creation process that includes the
beginning of mankind into the future and multiple possible timelines, etc...
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:17 PM
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Growing Earth

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImBill View Post
Couldn't it be that they were once closer to a land mass where cormorants lived, moved freely back and forth for millenia, and that as the islands moved farther away, the cormorants that had made it their home had less and less reason to fly?
That makes a lot of sense.

This model makes more sense to me than anything else:
Neal Adams Science Project New Model of the Universe Two Guys in a Bar

It is commonly showed that Pangaea one continent on the same size
earth as we have not with a lot of ocean. But if you remove the ocean
and just have the continent, it makes a perfect sphere! Then as expansion,
there is room for water, etc... check it out, pretty cool.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:19 PM
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Divine Code of Life

Amazon.com: The Divine Code of Life eBook: Dr. Kazuo Murakami: Kindle Store

This book shows the facts about our intention can switch genes off and on.

Product Description

Genetic characteristics that are passed down from generation to generation have been considered immutable and inescapable. But recent studies by scientists have shown that the environment and other external factors change the way our genes work. Physical and chemical factors are well-known, but in The Divine Code of Life, Dr. Kazuo Murakami offers a new perspective: how we think can activate good dormant genes and switch off negative ones. In other words, your hidden potential lies within your genes.

About the Author

Dr. Kazuo Murakami is one of the top geneticists in the world and Professor Emeritus at the University of Tsukuba, one of Japan's leading research universities. In 1963, he obtained a Doctorate of Agricultural Chemistry from the Graduate School of Agriculture at Kyoto University and then became a researcher at Oregon Health ; Science University. In 1976, Dr. Murakami started as assistant professor at Vanderbilt University. He was appointed Professor of Applied Biochemistry at Tsukuba University in 1978 where he began genetic research. In 1983, he decoded the human enzyme renin--a hidden factor behind hypertension--which won him international acclaim. In 1990, he won the Max Planck Research Award. In 1994, he became director of the Tsukuba Advanced Research Alliance Center at the University of Tsukuba. In 1996, he was presented with the Japan Academy Prize in recognition of his achievements.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:55 PM
jibbguy jibbguy is offline
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In the below article, a pod of Dolphins literally save swimmers in New Zealand from Great White Shark.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Dolphins prevent NZ shark attack

One off the coast of Australia, a bleeding ship-wrecked man is saved from a whole school of sharks by Dolphins

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | 'Dolphins saved me from sharks'



Another incident in California, where a pod saved this guy from a 16 foot great White

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com


Dolphins have names !!

Dolphins Name Themselves With Whistles, Study Says

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Old 02-03-2010, 04:47 AM
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Sharyn Sharyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
And I thought it was only my idea that they may be from elsewhere.
No , you're not the only one! Aaron, I have posted this website before on the forum which has a lot of interesting info - DOLPHINS WHALES. Swim with Dolphins in Hawaii, and with whales Internationally: a multi-dimensional experience to share with new friends.

A couple of interesting articles
- Dolphins & Whales with us

ETs and Dolphins - (may be a bit "out there" for some).

Synchronistically though, I had just revisited this site & read this page today (Et's & Dolphins) & then I ended up next going to watch a Project Camelot interview with Aaron McCollum about the Aden Stargate ( which I have just posted in the psyche & paranormal thread).

Around 45 minutes into the interview he spoke about dolphins & how they were being trained by the military & used around the waters of Iraq etc & he confirmed parts of what is mentioned in Joan's article re their ability to lift one into altered states & the existence of underwater bases.


Love, Light & Blessings
Sharyn
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