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  #1  
Old 10-22-2009, 04:15 AM
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The American Flag banned - in America!!

Folks, Pennsylvania is at it again! In the latest affront to American ideals, the Chester, Pennsylvania Fire Department has suspended firefighter James Krapf without pay for disobeying orders to remove a U.S. flag sticker displayed on the outside of his locker. Suspended for being patriotic - can you believe it? This is no joke. Watch this video:
YouTube - Firefighter Suspended WITHOUT PAY for Refusing to Remove American Flag Sticker from his Locker

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Old 10-22-2009, 05:28 AM
Nadda Nadda is offline
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I didnt watch the clip you linked in your post but from what i seen on the news they were basically saying it was a no tolerence rule. To avoid any conflict the rule is meant to keep all personal items off of the lockers...

Now, is it just me or isnt that something teachers do in kindergarten? Maybe im mistaken but i always had thought grown adults could decide weather or not personal items were controveral. Why a fire-house with grown men would need to resort to childish tactics to get all the kids to play nice is beyond me.

Whoever decided the flag needs to go seriously doesnt appear to have the mental capacity to be anyones boss. Sorry to be mean, but that is simply insane to say the US flag isnt allowed on a US firemans locker.
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Old 10-22-2009, 09:28 AM
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Yes, it certainly is crazy, especially since there are several places in the firehouse where flags are displayed, including flag patches sew on to the firefighter uniforms. I guess those need to be ripped off too, right?
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:01 PM
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Well, I think your lead-in to this thread is just a little misleading. I don't think it has anything to do with it being an American flag or anyone's patriotism. Nor is it necessarily crazy. I look at it this way: People sticking bumper stickers and other things on their locker can cause problems. Problem one being the removal of said stickers when a FF leaves and someone else now has that locker. Department has probably spent a lot of money on painting the lockers and removing stickers. (Note ugly partially removed sticker in your attached picture.) Problem two may be that fire fighters have been known to put offensive stickers on the outside of their lockers and rather than handle it on a case by case basis, they just made a rule that from now on, no more stickers on lockers.
Near as I can tell, nobody "banned" the American flag. No one has affronted American ideals. Nobody was suspended for being "patriotic". If I am wrong, please point out where. Thanks
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:22 AM
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if it were a financial issue due to locker cleanup, im sure they could inform the employees they would be charged with such a bill upon theyre leaving. Also, as i mentioned in my above post, is it not possible for grown adults to handle a task thats as complex as knowing when a sticker is offensive or not?

There obviously is something going on that we dont know about. I assume someone there has a god complex and didnt like being told no.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:48 AM
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Patrotism vs. bureaucracy

Hi ImBill;

I agree with your assessment. Unfortunately it points out how block-headed most bureaucrats are. Instead of laying off a firefighter, why not amend the ordinance to exclude American flag stickers up to a certain size and even where you could place them? To easy. Most officials are more concerned with their rule book than reality or common sense.

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Old 10-23-2009, 04:50 AM
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Well, Bill, the way I look at it is that when an American fire fighter places a flag sticker on the face of his locker he is making a statement that he is proud to be an American. That is called patriotism. This all started because someone complained that a sticker on someone's locker offended them, and if that is true then the offending sticker should have been the one to be removed, and the offender reprimanded. I seriously doubt that anyone at the station was offended by the sight of that flag sticker, and if they were then they should leave this country and go elsewhere. We're talking about a fire fighter who has served 11 years, and who never knows if he will be coming back to the station when he is called to a fire. Do you remember the 911 image of the fire fighters standing at ground zero with a flag? I'm sure that James Krapf remembers it and identifies strongly with it. To him, it is a daily reminder of the lives lost on 911. For anyone to tell him, or any other fire fighter, that they must remove that symbol from their locker or be suspended without pay is a shameful act that is an affront to American ideals. Yes, I do see the ugly peeling left behind where a different sticker had been applied and removed. Perhaps that sticker was no more offensive than the flag sticker. In any event, it just leaves a little sticky paper behind which can be easily removed with some alcohol, without damaging the paint beneath it. It's no big deal, and when a fire fighter retires, he could be asked to clean off his locker face. If he doesn't return from a fire, would it be that much of a burden for someone else to clean the locker face off before a new fire fighter moves in? Of course not, and that's why this is crazy.

Bill, if you don't think this has anything to do with an American flag, or anyone's patriotism, then why do you think James Krapf would have stood his ground and refused to remove the flag sticker when faced with suspension? He complied by removing the other sticker, so it had nothing to do with simply being obstinate. Only the flag sticker remained.

Update: Fire fighter James Krapf has been reinstated to his job, and the American Flag sticker will stay. Thank goodness there are people who will stand up against authority for what is right. Video here: Firefighter James Krapf reinstated. American flags can stay on lockers at Pennsylvania’s Chester City Fire Department. – STATter911.com
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:07 AM
d3adp00l d3adp00l is offline
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people like you bill ARE THE problem. You leave common sense behind and being literal when its ignorant.

you can manipulate the letter of the rules all you want, I see it for what it is. Thats what people like you do. But you miss the common sense common law spirit of the law/rule.
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d3adp00l View Post
people like you bill ARE THE problem. You leave common sense behind and being literal when its ignorant.

you can manipulate the letter of the rules all you want, I see it for what it is. Thats what people like you do. But you miss the common sense common law spirit of the law/rule.
d3,
I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought it was right to suspend the fire fighter for having the flag sticker on his locker. I do not think it was right. I am not missing any part of the scenario presented. However, I can and do see both sides of the disagreement. Yes, it was wrong of the department to stick to their guns and suspend the fireman. No, I don't necessarily think it is wrong for them to create a rule for no stickers on the lockers, no matter how easy they are to remove or clean up the residue from after removal. I'm pretty sure most high schools that have lockers for their students have similar rules.
I think it would be better for you to read what I wrote, rather than try to read something into it that wasn't there in the future. What I was pointing out with my post that there was not "a ban on the American flag in America" as Rick indicated with his thread title. As he, himself, pointed out, there are plenty of other American flags in the station that were not removed nor was anyone suspended because of their placement.
By the way, I'm not a big fan of patriotism. I'm proud of the ideals upon which this country was founded, but don't think that our present course is anything to be overly excited about. In my view, we are all part of the same thing no matter where we were born or where we live. In my view, everything that we do should be about universal cooperation and love for each other and the rest of the cosmos. It is my belief that anything that extends, magnifies, or contributes to the illusion of separateness isn't good for the collective or for us personally.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:17 PM
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Yep, that's what I wrote...
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImBill View Post
What I was pointing out with my post that there was not "a ban on the American flag in America" as Rick indicated with his thread title.
Bill, what you are quoting is not the title of this thread. I never stated, or implied, that there was a total ban on the American flag in America. The correct title is, "The American Flag banned - in America!," not across America. The last I knew, Chester Pennsylvania was in America. I factually reported an incident in which the American flag was effectively banned and ordered removed by decree of authority, and reported how a fire fighter was suspended for refusing to obey that command. It doesn't matter that it was only banned from locker faces, and nowhere else in the fire station. It still resulted in a ban against displaying the very symbol of American freedom. Those who declared the ban soon realized the error of their ways, and the fireman was reinstated, thank goodness. But what if James Krapf had not disobeyed orders and not stood his ground for a principle that he believed in so strongly? The rule of authority would have prevailed, rather than common sense and liberty. When authority is not questioned, and goes unchallenged, one little incident such as this leads to another and another and another, and our liberties are slowly but surely eroded until they are altogether vanished.

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By the way, I'm not a big fan of patriotism. I'm proud of the ideals upon which this country was founded, but don't think that our present course is anything to be overly excited about.
I too am not a fan of patriotism if accepted in terms of one dictionary meaning - "a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion." Obviously, this could apply to someone who lived in Germany under Hitler's regime, and who devotedly supported and defended his interests of systematically exterminating all opposition to his agenda. Instead, I view another definition as being more closely associated with what I believe true patriotism is all about: "a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government." You say that you are proud of the ideals upon which our country was founded, and if you are also willing to defend those ideals then I regard you as a true patriot. I fully agree that the present course being taken by our country's leadership is nothing to be excited about, and I feel certain that our Founding Fathers would be rolling over in their graves if they knew the extent to which our liberties have been subverted by our government.

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It is my belief that anything that extends, magnifies, or contributes to the illusion of separateness isn't good for the collective or for us personally.
I hope you aren't of the mindset that a one world government with centralized authority would be in our best interest, and I don't mean to imply that is what you believe. Certainly separation does have its proper place in matters such as separation of church and state, separation of governmental branches, and separation of federal and state sovereignty. Would you not agree?

Rick
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:05 PM
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On the banned flag part, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I really don't think it was about the flag as far as the banning goes. I feel strongly that it was the sticker on the locker door that was banned (if it could even be called a ban).
Yes, I am in agreement that we should be following the Constitution, not trampling it under the feet of greed and power. Even our flag, the symbol of our country, has been abused and denigrated by those in power. I would like to see a world government or governing body to address issues of global concern. However, I feel it is in everyone's best interest for communities to govern themselves with little or no interference from the national or global level. Checks and balances in the different branches of government established by the constitution are an important part of the whole picture. I am willing to defend the principles upon which this country was founded and denounce the way that our current government is conducting their business (and ours). I am in complete agreement with you on the separation issues. I was referring to the illusion that we are separate from our environment, each other, God, etc.
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Last edited by ImBill; 10-23-2009 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:56 PM
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Thanks, Bill, that's what I thought, and I can see that we do agree on far more than we disagree on.

I agree that the original banning order was not intended to have anything to do with the flag, but it became about the flag when Krapf's supervisor insisted that he remove the flag or be suspended, and I don't think you would disagree with that.

Best wishes to you,

Rick
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:17 AM
d3adp00l d3adp00l is offline
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Ok the high school locker theory, throw that out. We are talking about grown people who can and are responsible for their actions, not children.

To imply that a grown person needs to be treated like an adolesant is rediculous.

And get off the damned political fence. If you don't think it was right for them to suspend the man, then grow a pair and THEN STAND UP for it. I can understand the intent and spirit of the rule, I have common sense.

It was wrong of them, P period.

Until we get back to understanding right and wrong and acting accordingly this BS of "no wrong answer" and PC crap will continue to ruin us. No one wants to take a stand because they might be wrong. Well get over it, stand firm, if you find out you made a mistake, apologize for it, and then correct it. Don't try to twist, manipulate or otherwise weasel out of it.
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:24 AM
d3adp00l d3adp00l is offline
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And you know what, I want the guy or gal who put the damned duct tape on the locker suspended, and the person who stuck the name sticker suspended. Hey the rules are the rules, and we have to follow them to the T.

Naw theres no way they could have said, well sir when you leave you need to return the locker to the condition it was issued in. And he couldnt have said sure no problem. No some rule suckin paper pusher wanted to show their power over someone else.

And this guy was proly sick of the beaucratic BS, and said shove it bub.

If your gonna complain that you dont like the direction this country is going in, then stop acting the way that has got us here.
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Old 10-24-2009, 07:30 AM
d3adp00l d3adp00l is offline
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another thing, who said anyone has the right not to be offended? I dont care if your offended (not directed at anyone here per say, but if you are then it does)

Until we remember that we dont have that right, but we have the right not to look, or think about it. We are screwed.

Remember as a child, you worry about you, and let them worry about them. There is a reason for that bit of wisdom
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:04 AM
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One World Gov't?

Quote by d3adp00l:

Quote:
I would like to see a world government or governing body to address issues of global concern.
And who would be capable of running this without bias and with justice, the $#***&** U.N. or some new outfit that would be as screwed up and ineffectual?

How's this for a taste of a world government?

Quote:
Monckton contends that the word "government" appears twice in paragraph 38 of the draft, and that paragraphs 36 through 38 explain that the purpose of the treaty is to establish a world government. "Whose job," he explains, "will be to transfer wealth from the wealthy countries, such as the United States most of all, to Third World countries -- and the excuse for this transfer of wealth is so-called 'reparation.'"

Reparation for so-called "climate debt," he adds. Monckton notes that the U.N. believes the U.S. owes the world this debt because of its use of fossil fuels, which he says are mistakenly blamed for causing "manmade global warming." He adds that this world government will have the ability to make the U.S. pay. Monckton is hopeful that the U.S. will lack the willingness to ratify such a dangerous treaty
Entire report is here:

Of climate control and one-world gov't (OneNewsNow.com)

It's bad enough the stuff we have to put up with from our own government; at least we have some degree of control over them and can voice our opinions, pro or con. This group would be untouchable and could do pretty much anything they wanted. Is that really what you want?

I sincerely hope not!

Al
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Old 10-25-2009, 04:43 AM
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Al, your lead-in quote is referenced to d3adp001 in error. That was by user ImBill from post #12.

Good example of NWO world government control, though, when Obama signs away US sovereignty via the Copenghagen treaty in December.

Rick
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Old 10-25-2009, 05:13 AM
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Correction

HI Rick;

Thanks for the correction and my apologies to d3adp001. My only lame excuse is my eyes were watering pretty badly from my allergies.

So I redirect my comments to ImBill and await any reply.

Al
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Old 10-26-2009, 10:20 PM
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The Flag represents...

Wise sage said...

The men of the country often go astray.

That flag. Well, many good men have died for it, and what it represents.

Long may she wave. Freedoms symbol. Stars and Stripes!
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Old 10-27-2009, 02:14 AM
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contact reps

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickoff View Post
when Obama signs away US sovereignty via the Copenghagen treaty in December.
Of IF he does - we need to hound our representatives like white on rice!
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
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Wise sage said...

The men of the country often go astray.

That flag. Well, many good men have died for it, and what it represents.

Long may she wave. Freedoms symbol. Stars and Stripes!
I agree, may she wave .. but what flag are we waving?
Which flag are we waving: a flag of war or a flag of peace?
There was a non-military US flag.

Since the US customs does not fight in wars, that flag has vertical stripes.

There was (is) another flag flown by the non-military and civilians . .

A flag to be flown by the peaceful for the rules of war state to leave the
civilians alone .. there are not active combatants .

Should we fly a flag that indicates civilians or one that indicates military?
Are we military?
Civilians are suppose to have a high status, which a military flag takes away.
A Military flag means a non-civilian,
the military and war rules apply to those that fly the Military flag.


The Mystery of the Forgotten U.S. Flag
The Lieber Code Of 1863 covers how civilians are to be treated
which is given up if you fly a military flag?
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Old 10-27-2009, 10:55 AM
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Civilian Flag

Interesting flag and history!
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Old 10-27-2009, 06:58 PM
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So I redirect my comments to ImBill and await any reply.
I'm not going to sit here and try to tell you that I have a plan and it will work perfectly. Basically, I would prefer to see something along the lines of the way this country was founded. There are global issues that need to be addressed: whales and dolphins being killed (indeed, oceans being fished dry), endangered and threatened species, climate change, pollutants in the atmosphere, global shipping, global communications, etc. What the right body is and how they would be monitored and kept from being corrupted is something that would need to be worked out. Having power hungry, morally bankrupt leaders in any situation is bad for the people.

The federal government in this country was supposed to be a hands off type organization except for those concerns outside of local purview (maritime law, military, dealings with other country's governments, and other national concerns). They have slowly usurped power from the other branches of government so that they are now wrongly and firmly enmeshed in our every day lives. They have socialized many things that should not have been socialized and privatized things like the military that should remain out of private hands.

In order for any government to work well for the people, it should be mostly handled by the people. We should be way more responsible for our government and they should be way more responsible for us. We've developed a laissez-faire attitude and they are taking every advantage of it that they can. They keep taking away more of our power (so that we are now just about powerless) and adding to their own.

As long as our individual world governments are owned and operated by the banking concerns, we're gonna get screwed. We need to find a way to get rid of them once and for all (if that's even possible, lol). You rightly point out that the UN is definitely not serving our best interests, either.

Sorry I don't have a utopian plan available. I just know that what we have, ain't it.

To get back to the original subject, this was clearly a case that should never have come to the point it did. However, there are more things here that deserve consideration, IMO. One is our attachment to things and giving them more importance than they should really have. In this instance, the firefighter decided this little sticker (probably made in China) that symbolizes a symbol of our country was worth more on the door of his locker than his job. He could have thousands of these stickers on his car and his home (property that he owns). I don't know the rules at the station, but he could probably have hundreds of these stickers in the locker and on the inside of the locker door. What I'm getting at is that he could choose to have plenty of these stickers almost anywhere he wanted them on HIS PROPERTY, but he chose to make it about that one sticker in the one place that he was told he couldn't have one. I think we've all been subjected to some rule that we didn't think was right, but decided it wasn't worth the trouble to fight it. Obviously it was worth it to this individual.

I sincerely doubt that his fight is going to change the world or stop tyranny in its myriad forms. It was and is a small issue and will have small consequences. One of my pet peeves is people assuming it is okay to erect their little memorials anywhere they choose, usually on public property, but sometimes on private land without permission. Whether it is an advertisement for someone running for office or the site near where a loved one died, there are appropriate places for these things that worked well for centuries. I hope my view is not too offensive...
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Old 10-27-2009, 07:59 PM
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To imply that a grown person needs to be treated like an adolesant is rediculous.

And get off the damned political fence. If you don't think it was right for them to suspend the man, then grow a pair and THEN STAND UP for it. I can understand the intent and spirit of the rule, I have common sense.
Well, d3, I see adults acting like children all the time. They do, indeed, need to be treated like adolescents, and are. What about helmet laws, for instance? What about seat belt laws? What about talking on a cell phone while driving like a drunk? What about all the people who have been killed by drunk drivers? We have a toothless law against driving while talking on the phone in this state, but I still see countless drivers talking on the phone while driving, not using turn signals, cutting people off, changing lanes willy-nilly, running stop signs, etc., etc.

As for the rest of your rude diatribe, I don't usually get involved in politics because I can usually see both sides of an argument and oftentimes the shades of gray between the two sides. What's to stand up for in this instance? My input won't have any bearing on the case and I don't feel strongly enough about either side of the issue to "take a stand". Feel free if you feel so inclined. It has nothing to do with me or anyone I care about more than in a general they-are-all-part-of-me sense. In a discussion about the issue raised, I can see both sides of the argument and could argue from either viewpoint. I have no need or desire to choose a side or get off of any fences. I could even choose a tack that hasn't been broached yet in this discussion. That's the beauty of this country. We have choices. I don't have to behave or write the way you want me to.
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Old 10-27-2009, 08:13 PM
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another thing, who said anyone has the right not to be offended?

Umm, the Constitution does.

I dont care if your offended (not directed at anyone here per say, but if you are then it does)

Nice.

Until we remember that we dont have that right, but we have the right not to look, or think about it. We are screwed.

According to your myopic view.

Remember as a child, you worry about you, and let them worry about them. There is a reason for that bit of wisdom
I thought adults didn't need to be treated like children...

Let's throw out just one simple example for you, since you seem to be an authority on the subject. Let's say a Hispanic family moves into a predominantly white neighborhood because it's a house that they love, near shopping and work, in a good school district for the kids, and at a price they can afford. After they move in, someone writes "Go Home, Wetback" on their garage door, hangs a Hispanic person in effigy from the tree in their front yard, and the neighbors all call the parents and kids names whenever they see them. Should they just quit looking at the tree in their front yard, keep the garage door up, and never go outside? Should they move to a more Hispanic friendly neighborhood? Should they just quit thinking about it?

What about someone being offended by being stabbed, shot, or run over by a car? They should just suck it up and go on about their business?
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Last edited by ImBill; 10-27-2009 at 09:19 PM.
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  #27  
Old 10-27-2009, 10:33 PM
ImBill ImBill is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Battle Ground, WA
Posts: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
Civilians are suppose to have a high status, which a military flag takes away.
A Military flag means a non-civilian,
the military and war rules apply to those that fly the Military flag.

covers how civilians are to be treated
which is given up if you fly a military flag?
Our rights were usurped when the country went bankrupt in 1933 and a state of emergency was declared. Except for a few brief periods of time since, we have been under the military flag as we are still in that state of emergency. Our courts almost all fly the military flag with the gold trim around it. Very convenient for the government to take any power we may have had and throw away such things as due process and unalienable rights.
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My reality does not equal your reality, but my reality is neither > nor < your reality.
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  #28  
Old 11-18-2009, 06:55 AM
Vortex Vortex is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Interesting flag and history!
Fly a civil flag


Purchase one here
Us Civil Flags Products: Civil Flags, Sons of Liberty Flags, Sons of Liberty Patches, Mini Flags, Caps, Hats
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