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Old 10-28-2007, 04:48 PM
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elias elias is offline
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Question What's your oponion about Hell?

Hi there,

A question has been wiggling in my mind for a while and it was that does an entity named Hell exist?

Some of the new age thinkers claim that there is no such thing as Hell.
But can this claim be justified by the existence of a Just God?

How can those who do harm others, suppress technologies, spread war, spread ignorance be no different from those who live the opposite in the afterlife? People who help the poor, give love to their neighbors, spread what they know surely aren't even comparable with evil people.

I have concluded that there indeed must be a place where these criminals get what they deserve (like Hell). Indeed they will be suffering in there own deeds also.

Anyone has any opinion?
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Old 10-28-2007, 07:33 PM
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sterlingpg sterlingpg is offline
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Interesting Q!

Quote:
Originally Posted by elias View Post
Hi there,

A question has been wiggling in my mind for a while and it was that does an entity named Hell exist?

Some of the new age thinkers claim that there is no such thing as Hell.
But can this claim be justified by the existence of a Just God?

How can those who do harm others, suppress technologies, spread war, spread ignorance be no different from those who live the opposite in the afterlife? People who help the poor, give love to their neighbors, spread what they know surely aren't even comparable with evil people.

I have concluded that there indeed must be a place where these criminals get what they deserve (like Hell). Indeed they will be suffering in there own deeds also.

Anyone has any opinion?
Thank you for the thought-stimulating question, Elias.

I have a view that is completely outside of duality. Duality is the belief system that there is good/evil, God/Devil etc.

I do not believe there is a 'Just' God. I do not believe there is anything like 'god' as described in the Bible and other works. There is only 'That which cannot be named nor truly described' which equals 'God', in my universe.

All evidences of that which is described as 'evil' exists by gods allowance, otherwise we handicap god into believing 'It' has things beyond its control or direction. If such things were not created somehow from that which has created all things and is the true Source, then where did they come from? A power or source greater or stronger or outside of God?

In my universe, the 'Earth arena' is a safe 'playground' whereby no one is truly harmed or can be killed. We are eternal spirit beings directly of the same 'stuff' as god, and in fact we are all 'god-incarnate' or god-experienced. Those things of duality that many judge as evil are incarnated beings that have forgotten who they really are and mostly do things that which serves only themselves. Those that do what many think are 'good' things for others have remembered more of Who They Really Are and thus live lives more in service to others.

In my universe, there is no true suffering, no evil, no good or bad or judgement from the Source for to do so is to judge itself and what it has created. There is a huge amount more to this - it would take hours and days to flesh out the basis for the very brief description above, however, the greatest liberation I experienced out of duality and the frustrations of believing there was good and bad, came from reading Conversations With God by Neale Walsh. Though those were just words on a page and they were claimed to be from 'god', it does not matter to me - the intense body-reaction to the ideas in myself showed they were true for me.

The vast body of evidence for these ideas come from the Other Side, from various channeled works like Abraham and many others; the evidence from Technical Remote Viewing and other sources that beyond this apparent reality there is no time or space, and the liberation felt through the deepest fibers of my being in acceptance for what IS, and letting ALL of it be 'ok', and moving into a place of having preferences but not black and white judgement is all the reason I need to keep on with my own presonal 'opinion' Also, knowledge and knowingness of the current best model of our universe being holographic as well as the power behind the ideas shared in Busting Loose from the Money Game (the title is hilariously deceptive lol) and The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle have also contributed to this liberation.

Quantum Physics is showing us what Eastern Mysticism has talked about for thousands of years. The material universe is created and projected by Consciousness affecting the Field. All that we think is so 'real' including suffering, pain, buildings, plants, PEOPLE, are not what they appear to be.

This has brought me to see the divinity within and the subsequent knowingness of the infinite in Joy, Power, Love, Wisdom! Expressing these becomes a natural state of being that requires no creed, church, or peer pressure to share them with anyone and everyone regardless of who they are.

Thank you for allowing this space to share this...

In Gratitude,

tephen
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Old 10-29-2007, 03:16 AM
cffevans cffevans is offline
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Expanding earth

Hi Elias,

I'm from a slightly different train of belief. Recently, I came across a youtube video titled "expanding earth". In it the presenter, Neil Adams, tells us there has been a conspiracy in the science community. Not a big surprise there. But this one deals with continental drift. He says the geological evidence supports an enlarging earth in which a smaller earlier earth had no bodies of water and as the earth expanded, the land masses broke up into the current continents separated by newly created bodies of water.

Mr Adams gives no explanation as to the origin of the water to fill these newly formed areas. But as a believer in the Bible I have an explanation. You see my Bible tells me of a world wide flood. It tells me that mankind and animalkind lived in an expance called firmament. In the first book of the Bible, Genesis (beginnings), in chapter 1, it tells of the firmament dividing the waters below from the waters above. So there was water under the land and water over the air or a vapor canopy.

Later on in chapter 6 we find that men did not follow God's ways and God calls upon Noah to build an ark (huge boat) so that he can preserve a selection of his creation while he destroys the remaining creatures. Many say this is just a story, yet every culture has their own version of the world wide flood. Prior to this flood there was no rain on the face of the earth. God brought a mist up from the ground to water the earth. Genesis 2:6

After Noah had finished the ark, he and his wife, his three sons and their wives and the selection of animals went into the ark. In chapter 7 verse 11 the Bible tells us that the fountains of the deep were broken up and the windows of heaven were opened. Now here is a source of water to fill the streams, rivers, lakes and oceans and we were told about it in chapter 1.

You say, "But where did the mass come from to expand the earth?" Well in the book of Psalms chapter 9 verse 17 it says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all nations that forget God." You say, "What's that got to do with an expanding earth?" Over in the book of Isaiah, chapter 5 verse 11-14 it says, "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning. that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine enflame them! And the harp, and the viol(stringed instrument), the tabret(drum), and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they reguard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands. Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

If you have any doubt as to the location of hell, we find in the book of Jonah chapter 2 verse 2 Jonah says, "I cried by reason of my affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice." Then in verse 6 he says, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God." So hell is at the bottoms of the mountains.

It is therefore my belief that the earth expanded because hell expanded; hell being below the foundations of the mountains. You see God's flood killed off the wicked people who would not give him glory, nor consider all his wonderous works. And hell found it necessary to expand to accommodate those wicked souls.

So, yes, I believe hell exists exactly as described in the Bible and more proof to substantiate that position exists today than ever before.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans

Last edited by cffevans : 10-29-2007 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 10-29-2007, 04:35 AM
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I forgot to add lol

I had meant to comment on what I now consider 'hell' and 'sin'.

Hell to me is the place one is in when one believes they are separate from God.

Sin is virtually the same thing to me - believing one to be separate from god, needing 'forgiveness' from outside oneself. Even so, such a 'sin' is not judged by god, and in the end, we cannot not get to where we're going, which when we're there, we realize we always were there, and had nowhere to go LOL.

Also, I have come to appreciate that in my universe, hell, demons etc, are virtual realities we create with consciousness. Over thousands of years, and millions of people's belief in them, they have become very powerful morphic fields. If we live in one of those realities, then the effects from them can seem very real, until we learn how to step out of such realities and join or create a different one.

At least that is what I believe this week - it might change next week, stay tuned!

In Peace,

tephen
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Old 10-29-2007, 11:49 AM
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There is something strange in Abraham Hicks' words

Stephen and Mark,

Thank you both for your comprehensive replies. Stephen, I completely accept your idea about God which is everywhere and is a Creator of Infinite Intelligence and Love, Which cannot be imagined, and also I like your idea about no duality in good or evilness, there is only good and love. "EVIL IS THE LACK" and does not exist. It is the lack of existence which is termed as evil. An example would be DARKNESS is the ABSENCE of LIGHT, and there is no such existence as darkness because it is the lack of existence. Ok?

But something in Abraham's teachings disturbs me very much, although I completely agree his idea of creation and love and law of attraction. That thing is the saying that killing people is not really a bad thing because it causes their soul get free!!! But he also says that everything you do must make you feel better! What normal person feels good when he kills somebody on purpose to harm him/her?! Only those who have become so evil (LACK of Love) may feel good(?) when killing somebody.
Of course also I mention that the actual offense one does is to his connection with his true self. Because I don't think that our true self agrees with the notion of preventing someone experiencing this life(i.e killing somebody).

You certainly know that some sick people seek pleasure when torturing somebody! (labeled as SADISM) Then should these SICK people do this because it makes them feel good?! But they certainly make some people feel bad!! Would Abraham suggest these people to continue doing these tortures because they feel Good? I don't think so, But what they actually meant?

I don't want to judge too fast but there seems to be something wrong in Abraham's teachings. It suggests that no matter a government drops bombs on some people or some terrorists because they are attracting that. I believe in the law of attraction to some degree but, I maybe there is a more complete model for describing the world events.

As an end note, One of the most common forms of deception is putting an evil idea beside tons of good and loving information, then one would grasp that bit of evil idea without knowing that! I mean that should we say "The poor deserves to be poor because they have attracted that"? I think that there is another side to this law of attraction which we must take into consideration.

I want to present a paradox or maybe a paradox here about Abraham's teachings:


Abraham talks about Steven Spielberg and says that see what he has created by using his Imagination. He says that you are creators and you create everything by your mind. So he means (or they mean) that every imagination creates.
He also claims that Hell and Judgment day does not exist and is a fictional imaginary thing.

Of course I present this paradox for clarification, not rejection or offense.

So what can someone conclude from these sayings?
=> because so many people have imagined it throughout the history and had fear of entering it, AND also each imagination is a creation THEN Hell should Exist. Maybe according to Abraham's teachings only those who fear entering Hell enter Hell?!!? But Abraham does not state so and tells that after death EVERYONE is Infinite and THE SAME.

No one can deny the beauty of Abraham's teachings because most of it is based on the teachings of the past teachers (ADAM, DAVID, JOSEPH, JACOB, NOAH, THE real ABRAHAM, MOSES, JESUS, MOHAMMAD and many more) but a small portion of it seems that does not add up.

Two scenarios CAN exist in every channeling, and I want to address them here, but this does not necessarily mean anything. Just for extending our level of thought, as to not accept anything offered by anyone without thinking:

Number one:
If we believe in an entity or a creature named DEVIL or SATAN which has sworn in the name of God to lead men astray, then could this be a new trick offered by this entity? Devil once was a close servant of God but refusing to submission made him an evil entity. What the so called Abraham teaches could be Devil's trick. Especially when he assigns the name of Abraham to the teachings which is the founding father of the three major religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. This makes so much sense. According to this analogy we are not creators and we must connect to the ONE and ONLY creator of the universe. In other words we must connect to the source and HE is the creator and creates for us upon our wanting. I think that this being CAN refuse to create for us, because HE is the all powerful, but never does because he is the all giving and merciful. One must consider himself nothing in front of this creator to reach the utmost degrees of LOVE and UNITY. Betraying in front of this Creator can lead to severe pain after death. Of course this also means being our true self and not resisting in the connection to the source.

Number two:
Abraham's teachings, tells us that don't bother yourselves with the poor people or people who some evil men have bombed them, because the law of attraction has yielded them so. THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE, we as human beings cannot FEEL GOOD if this happens, but Abraham suggests no matter what just feel good and don't do anything to help them, don't help the poor. Abraham does not tell us directly not to help the poor but one unconsciously will develop such an attitude towards the poor (Your mind will think that they deserve that and You need not help them) Or you will not protest and make any trouble for the government against the war and bombing. The government SURELY wants no one to protest and has a definite motivation to spread this type of disinformation.
So, I think that the EVIL GOVERNMENT can by using MIND CONTROL (MKULTRA) make some people to think that they are receiving information from a WISE eternal being, not knowing that they are suffering from MPD(Multiple Personality Disorder).
To Note that According to my MKULTRA studies, women are much easily controlled and can become a MIND CONTROLLED SLAVE without knowing so.

Eager to see different opinions ...

God Bless,

Elias

Last edited by elias : 11-06-2007 at 06:12 AM. Reason: Some of my post may have been offensive in nature, so I deleted them ...
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Old 10-29-2007, 12:07 PM
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Noah in the Quran

Hi Mark,

I am too interested in what really happened in Noah's time.
I have been digging up many thoughts and religions lately, and I want to add Quran's comment on Noah's ark complementing the Bible's.

And it was revealed to Noah: That none of your people will believe except those who have already believed, therefore do not grieve at what they do.

And make the ark before Our eyes and (according to) Our revelation, and do not speak to Me in respect of those who are unjust; surely they shall be drowned.

And he began to make the ark; and whenever the chiefs from among his people passed by him they laughed at him. He said: If you laugh at us, surely we too laugh at you as you laugh (at us).

So shall you know who it is on whom will come a chastisement which will disgrace him, and on whom will lasting chastisement come down.

Until when Our command came and water came forth from the valley, We said: Carry in it two of all things, a pair, and your own family-- except those against whom the word has already gone forth, and those who believe. And there believed not with him but a few.

And he said: Embark in it, in the name of God be its sailing and its anchoring; most surely my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

And it moved on with them amid waves like mountains; and Noah called out to his son, and he was aloof: O my son! embark with us and be not with the unbelievers.

He said: I will betake myself for refuge to a mountain that shall protect me from the water. Noah said: There is no protector today from God's punishment but He Who has mercy; and a wave intervened between them, so he was of the drowned.

And it was said: O earth, swallow down your water, and O cloud, clear away; and the water was made to abate and the affair was decided, and the ark rested on the Judi, and it was said: Away with the unjust people.

And Noah cried out to his Lord and said: My Lord! surely my son is of my family, and Thy promise is surely true, and Thou art the most just of the judges.

He said: O Noah! surely he is not of your family; surely he is (the doer of) other than good deeds, therefore ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge; surely I admonish you lest you may be of the ignorant

He said: My Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from asking Thee that of which I have no knowledge; and if Thou do not forgive me and have mercy on me, I should be of the losers.

It was said: O Noah! descend with peace from Us and blessings on you and on the people from among those who are with you, and there shall be nations whom We will afford provisions, then a painful punishment from Us shall afflict them.

These are announcements relating to the unseen which We reveal to you, you did not know them-- (neither) you nor your people-- before this; therefore be patient; surely the end is for those who guard (against evil).



Kindest Regards,

Elias
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Old 10-29-2007, 01:55 PM
cffevans cffevans is offline
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Thanks

Thanks Elias,

It is good to see that the Bible and the Quran are so close in their rendition of Noah's history.

In 2 Peter 2:5 our Bible calls Noah "a preacher of righteousness." And yet we find no converts for him except his wife, his three sons and their wives. But God supplied a preacher to warn the wicked world of the coming destruction. For we read in 2 Peter 3:9 "The LORD is not slack concerning his promise(of judgement), as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Still just as there was a falling away from the truth in Noah's day; there is a falling away in this day. In Matthew 24:37-39, "But as the days of Noe(Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man(Jesus) be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

So Christ shall come and all shall be guilty before him who refuse to submitt to him in this life; But those that recieve him shall be blessed. 2Tim4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, butunto all them that love his appearing."

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans
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Old 10-29-2007, 02:31 PM
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great thread! wonderful dialogue, thank you all

here is good read about the holographic universe model, title is a little deceptive kinda like Busting Loose from the Money Game
http://au.geocities.com/psyberplasm/ch6.html

"Hell is other people" - Jean-Paul Sartre

Last edited by CaptainScat : 10-29-2007 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 10-29-2007, 03:30 PM
cffevans cffevans is offline
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geometry 101

Howdee Captain,

I read up until the shear wave section. Then, I confess, it was way over my head. I'm sorry to say I'm not seeing the connection to the thread. Are you offering another explanation of the expanding earth?


Please elaborate.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans
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Old 10-29-2007, 04:07 PM
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elias elias is offline
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Yes Jesus will return indeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by cffevans View Post
Thanks Elias,

It is good to see that the Bible and the Quran are so close in their rendition of Noah's history.

In 2 Peter 2:5 our Bible calls Noah "a preacher of righteousness." And yet we find no converts for him except his wife, his three sons and their wives. But God supplied a preacher to warn the wicked world of the coming destruction. For we read in 2 Peter 3:9 "The LORD is not slack concerning his promise(of judgement), as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Still just as there was a falling away from the truth in Noah's day; there is a falling away in this day. In Matthew 24:37-39, "But as the days of Noe(Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man(Jesus) be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

So Christ shall come and all shall be guilty before him who refuse to submitt to him in this life; But those that recieve him shall be blessed. 2Tim4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, butunto all them that love his appearing."

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans
Yes,

I agree that he will return and there is hope,

Regards,
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Old 10-30-2007, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cffevans View Post
Howdee Captain,

I read up until the shear wave section. Then, I confess, it was way over my head. I'm sorry to say I'm not seeing the connection to the thread. Are you offering another explanation of the expanding earth?


Please elaborate.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans
the holographic universe model link is in response to sterlingpg's mention of the holographic universe model in the first response to this thread. the info is kinda mixed in with another topic, but please try reading more than 1/5th of it you might see a connection then.

my opinion to the question posed by the thread it self was summarized by the Jean-Paul Sartre quote.
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Old 10-30-2007, 07:29 PM
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In Jewish tradition, there is no permanent hell.

The New Testament does not go on at length about the subject (as one might expect due to what many of its "followers" preach).

Not to make light of this subject, but I think the hell many of us have gone through on Earth is enough


XO Jessica
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Old 10-30-2007, 07:44 PM
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Here's a bit more on Jewish tradition. (I studied with this Chabad a little) :



What is Heaven and Hell?

Heaven and hell is where the soul receives its punishment and reward after death. Yes, Judaism believes in, and Jewish traditional sources extensively discuss, punishment and reward in the afterlife (indeed, it is one of the "Thirteen Principles" of Judaism enumerated by Maimonides). But these are a very different "heaven" and "hell" than what one finds described in medieval Christian texts or New Yorker cartoons. Heaven is not a place of halos and harps, nor is hell populated by those red creatures with pitchforks depicted on the label of non-kosher canned meat.

After death, the soul returns to its Divine Source, together with all the G-dliness it has "extracted" from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful.

This pleasure and pain are not reward and punishment in the conventional sense--in the sense that we might punish a criminal by sending him to jail or reward a dedicated employee with a raise. It is rather that we experience our own life in its reality--a reality from which we were sheltered during our physical lifetimes. We experience the true import and effect of our actions. Turning up the volume on that TV set with that symphony orchestra can be intensely pleasurable or intensely painful,8--depending on how we played the music of our lives.

When the soul departs from the body, it stands before the Heavenly Court to give a "judgment and accounting" of its earthly life.9 But the Heavenly Court only does the "accounting" part; the "judgment" part--that only the soul itself can do.10 Only the soul can pass judgment on itself--only it can know and sense the true extent of what it accomplished, or neglected to accomplish, in the course of its physical life. Freed from the limitations and concealments of the physical state, it can now see G-dliness; it can now look back at its own life and experience what it truly was. The soul's experience of the G-dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the "Garden of Eden"--i.e., Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinom ("Gehenna" or "Purgatory").

The truth hurts. The truth also cleanses and heals. The spiritual pain of gehinom--the soul's pain in facing the truth of its life--cleanses and heals the soul of the spiritual stains and blemishes that its failings and misdeeds have attached to it. Freed of this husk of negativity, the soul is now able to fully enjoy the immeasurable good that its life engendered and "bask in the Divine radiance" emitted by the G-dliness it brought into the world.


What Happens After We Die? - Questions


XO Jessica
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Old 10-31-2007, 04:34 AM
cffevans cffevans is offline
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Hell in New Testament

Jessica writes,
Quote:
In Jewish tradition, there is no permanent hell.

The New Testament does not go on at length about the subject (as one might expect due to what many of its "followers" preach).

Not to make light of this subject, but I think the hell many of us have gone through on Earth is enough


XO Jessica
Jessica,

In my King James New Testament, in Mark 9:43 & 44 Jesus says,"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." He then goes on to say the same thing concerning "thy foot" and then the same again about "thine eye".

Jesus was born of a Jewish woman named Mary. He seems to be making a statement about the permanence of the situation as he repeats the conditions three times. And if Jesus, at the very least, the central character of the New Testament speaks of hell in this way, it might just be important.

The word hell appears in the New Testament 23 times. It is one of the main themes repeating from Matthew to Revelation.

Just to set the record straight.

Live clean and prosper,
Mark Evans
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Old 10-31-2007, 04:42 AM
cffevans cffevans is offline
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Apology

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainScat View Post
the holographic universe model link is in response to sterlingpg's mention of the holographic universe model in the first response to this thread. the info is kinda mixed in with another topic, but please try reading more than 1/5th of it you might see a connection then.

my opinion to the question posed by the thread it self was summarized by the Jean-Paul Sartre quote.
Hey Captain,
Just want to say sorry if I offended. As I said before, that stuff is way over my head and after reading the section on shear waves about five times, I thought I'd go back to the source of the link and see if there was any more use in trying to understand. I'll go back and try to read to the end.
Thanks,
Mark Evans
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Old 10-31-2007, 09:44 AM
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cffevans, no apology needed, i took no offense and i meant none.
this is one of the things about text conversations that has always bothered me, i wish there was some better way to convey the tone of my voice and the smile when i type. text is so black and white and a short sentence can seem terse even if not intended.



to elaborate a bit further on my feelings of hell being summarized by the Sartre quote... "other people" to me doesn't mean you or the lady next door or anything like that but more of the "voice of the storyteller", that cacophony of noise and confusion that bombards us daily.

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Old 10-31-2007, 11:36 AM
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elias elias is offline
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I not concerned about hell anymore,

Thank you all for this discussion, I am thinking about love and unity instead of Hell, and no matter it exists or not, I certainly don't want to go there, so I do not need to know how it is or where it is or why it is?

Love and Light,

Elias

Last edited by elias : 10-31-2007 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 10-31-2007, 01:34 PM
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"The word hell appears in the New Testament 23 times. It is one of the main themes repeating from Matthew to Revelation.

Just to set the record straight."


Mark,

I'm not sure what you are straightening out here. I don't agree that it is a main theme.

I have read the NT start to finish probably 4 times or more and just keep re-reading it.

The word appearing does not mean it goes on at lenght. I find most references vague and can not come up with any particular complete explanation of hell from the NT.

Revalations probably has the most references that may touch on the subject, but it is probably the most diffucult book to interpret as it is extremely esoteric and not at all logical.

We've got what 27 books in the NT each with many many words. 23 does not seem like a high number in that context to me.

Also, what does the quote you list really say about hell? I don't see anything there about the guy with the pitchfork.

I know Jesus and his family were Jewish and celebrated Jewish traditions. You could not really have read the whole NT and not figured that out. I have posted on that before.

XO Jessica
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Old 10-31-2007, 01:37 PM
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PS It is very easy to me to interperate the quote you put up as sin causing a hellish life on earth.
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Old 10-31-2007, 01:43 PM
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For the readers' understanding I find it also important to point out that Jesus spoke in parables and said that he did.

I wouldn't take the limb cutting off thing literally.


XO Jessica
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Old 11-01-2007, 04:59 PM
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Smile The Divinity Of "ONE"

Hi Elias, This is my opinion of Good/Evil written eloquently here (in 1948) by Baird T. Spalding.

"I" in the individual is the first movement of his nature, the central point of his identity. "Am" is that which embodies, or embraces within the "I" - individual identity - whatever it encircles. The "I" is a positive assertion and the "Am" is the qualifying element. "I" is masculine and "Am" is the feminine principle. The "Am" brings forth into being whatever it embraces or conceives. The "Am" must become immaculate in its embracing power if man is to bring forth that which is in Spirit. "I", which is my identity in Spirit, "Am," that which embraces or embodies all that is in God, is the true use of these words. "I am THAT I am", which is the embodiment of God. I can never in reality be anything but THAT which it is in Spirit. "I am THAT I am, and beside me there is no other."

Many Hindoos use the I, while many use the I AM. It is thought by some that that was where duality began to manifest first - between the I and the I AM - many believing that this practice involved two attitudes or purposes, where in reality, it is but one correlation or subjugation of everything to the ONE Purpose. There is no duality of Principle but the Union of Principle in all things. They (the words "I AM") even pronounce the exact Principle of Truth. As they put it, the exaltation of the ONE principle allows it to work in that Principle conclusively. We do not see, either, the duality of nature and thus we do not recognize it. As duality has no recognition it becomes harmonized.

Summer and Winter are not two things but phases of one Nature. Winter is as essential to the growth of vegetation as is summer and only depicts two phases of a single process. What we call evil contains the germ of good and, when looked through to behold the good, the sense of evil disappears and there remains only the sense that all things are working together for good. The apparent evil surrounding conditions of poverty and pain that are shunned by human beings, if faced for the good within them, would vanish. Conditions in life that seem opposed to our highest good are but points of practice until we attain that strength of character to see and manifest only the perfection of the ONE. When life is seen in this way all unpleasantness vanishes and everything becomes a sort of practice game in which we see, live, move, and have being that the existing good may show forth in our own character, and in our world. Nature then is harmonious. All is harmony. All is working under the influence of the One Purpose.

NOW CLICK HERE TO SEE THE DIVINITY OF "ONE" EXPRESSED IN ONE WAY!

Last edited by Grace : 11-01-2007 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 11-01-2007, 06:38 PM
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[quote=Grace;11668] Hi Elias, This is my opinion of Good/Evil written eloquently here (in 1948) by Baird T. Spalding.

[color="Blue"][size="3"]"I" in the individual is the first movement of his nature, the central point of his identity. "Am" is that which embodies, or embraces within the "I" - individual identity - whatever it encircles. The "I" is a positive assertion and the "Am" is the qualifying element. "I" is masculine and "Am" is the feminine principle. The "Am" brings forth into being whatever it embraces or conceives. The "Am" must become immaculate in its embracing power if man is to bring forth that which is in Spirit. "I", which is my identity in Spirit, "Am," that which embraces or embodies all that is in God, is the true use of these words. "I am THAT I am", which is the embodiment of God. I can never in reality be anything but THAT which it is in Spirit. "I am THAT I am, and beside me there is no other."


Hi Grace,
Interesting that you would post the quote I was just thinking about posting The artist in the video is amazing!!!!
The Life and Teachings of the Eastern Masters is indeed a wonderful set of books that, I AM sure, have a profound effect on anyone who reads them.
I highly recommend them to anyone who feels the 'pull'.

Part of the All One,
Love, Light, Gratitude & Joy,
Maggie
Love,
Maggie

Last edited by CeCee : 11-01-2007 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 11-02-2007, 01:37 AM
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Thank you elias :)

Thank you for the time and effort you put into your reply that discussed the Abraham stuff etc!

I think that in any spiritual teaching from any 'source', that this is not directly from Source, but rather filtered if you will, through the persons writing or speaking of the message. Thus, I always have an internal 'test' going on whether this or that which I am reading or hearing, is resonating with my own connection to Source, my own 'truth'. The discovery of this personal truth is part of the greatness that experiencing life is all about for me, so I don't have a problem with it, rather, I BLESS IT!

That being said, I am perhaps not up on Abraham as much as you, however, I do believe there is more that you will discover about what Abraham is actually saying on the points that you raise. For some time, I have noticed there is much that Abraham says by what 'they' do not say. I don't believe this is for any evil intent but rather, learning on many levels and I feel that Abraham's purpose is to raise consciousness that is generally at a certain point forward. We all have to start somewhere, and wherever we are, we find/create other things to help spur us to the next thing. What I'm saying is that Abraham is sharing things that will resonate for those at that 'level' that appeals and brings them forward to perhaps other teachers, writing or revelations. When I use the word 'level', I use it loosely as I do not wish to describe a situation of duality even in this, for there is no greater or worse level to be at, but rather just different points in remembering Who We Really Are.

For me personally, I have come to a place where I do not believe there are any things 'external' to me. Not governments, people, powers, entities etc - we are all truly One and experiencing different facets of Source which is through all, in all, and the All in ALL. The 'worst' in human behaviour only shows the great extent that we can forget who we really are.

Most of my life I was part of what many have called a cult - Jehovah's Witnesses, so I have a lot of experience with religious ideas and the Bible. I do not decry or denounce any of this - it had its perfect place in the gradual progression of remembering for me in this lifetime. Thus, I am grateful for this experience with the Witnesses. Where many are angry and hateful to a religion that has much deceit in it, I am thankful for knowing now what I no longer wish to experience. There were also many good times with fantastic people who only wished to do the best for their families and others. I left it several years ago for different experiences and a more useful worldview for me personally. For me, a 'belief' is something you tell yourself over and over or hear from others, so much that you eventually believe it is 'true'. However, beliefs are only 'truth' for that one person. No persons belief perfectly mirrors another's in any belief system, be it religion or otherwise. However, for some years now, I have preferred to believe, like Socrates, that I AM THE SMARTEST MAN IN THE WORLD - I KNOW NOTHING. Every box opens up inside another box. Life is like an onion (or Ogres are like onions, if you like Shrek lol) with infinite layers - when you peel one, there is another underneath it. What this means to me is that stopping at some point and declaring either inwardly or externally that 'I have the truth', I KNOW this, with a list of beliefs, only serves to close the door on the natural flow of increasing awareness of an infinite universe and Life. Thus, for me, there is no box, and the onion has infinite delicious layers!

I have found that all labels based in duality only lead to division of us and them or the chosen ones and the ones not chosen etc. For me, there is a wonderful place to transcend duality and experience a knowingness about the perfection of all creation and acceptance for the way things are as existing by perfect design, albeit an open-ended system that is ever-expanding along infinite lines. Even in the unmanifest, the Field, there seems total chaos but in there too, there are patterns.

I must share with you another reason I thank you for this thread. I obviously still had an 'egg' of self-limiting belief about duality and religious-based ideas, for I had some emotional reaction towards it. I thought to myself, how interesting! Lets see what THIS is about.
So my initial reaction to the subject brought this to light and allowed me to process it in peace. For that, I am grateful to you.

When I saw you post this later on, I had a burst of Joy for you:

Quote:
I not concerned about hell anymore,
Thank you all for this discussion, I am thinking about love and unity instead of Hell, and no matter it exists or not, I certainly don't want to go there, so I do not need to know how it is or where it is or why it is?
In great gratitude and Peace,

tephen
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Old 11-02-2007, 03:41 AM
zartgirl zartgirl is offline
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Cool Ahhhh Elias

I have been reading and following along with this thread from the beginning... I have to tell you I wanted to post, but something kept stopping me. Hmmmm... I think it was you as you were working through this!

Anyways, I like Stephen, am pleased to see that you came to a perfect conclusion! From the beginning when I first read the post... I really just wanted to tell you to "Move ON!" LOL! Not to be rude, but as in when you get stuck on one teachers teaching, then it is time to move on to something new! I find as I go through so much of what I learn here that I often have to process it and let it just sit for awhile, and eventually I either get it, or I forget all about it and have moved totally beyond it! Usually, it is the first one I get understanding from what I am reading! Here's the deal, you had to come to the point of move on, on your own!

I find all kinds of things that I ? at first, and second, and third, and and and... Then all of a sudden the answer of how those pieces fit together comes together in my head! I have had so many Ah HAH! moments here on this thread!!!! My friends here on the board are all so awesome and patient with me as I work through everything! I too came to here from a religious background. I was part of a Pentecostal Church, who preached love, but but but... Yea! I was angry and hurt and and and... Yea! For me it was like there was this place that said it was about Love, but then there was this place that practiced love! I have a painting I want to paint, and it is of the church putting God in a box, but he doesn't fit! It is so important to not try to put God in a box, cause he really doesn't fit in one... He just ooooooozzzzzes out all over the place! "He is the in-between the physical matter" as Grace so eloquently explained to me a while back! You can not squeeze the in-between into a box! None of this is new to me, as I was already starting to remember it way back when I was slowly leaving the church I belonged to! The vision of the box and God and the church had came to me way before I started learning here about things!

Here is the other thought I had for you way back in the beginning... You asked the question of who would feed the poor? Because, as we gain more consciousness we remember that we created everything... Right? Well here is the answer... As I gain more consciousness and I learn how I created all the situations in my life I have come to forgiveness of the people who have wronged me. I have reached an understanding of how we are all one, connected by spirit... Hmmmm... you know it is easy to say you love someone, but when you and I are one... Then suddenly it is no longer talk, but just natural to love you! I have learned one other little goodie, and that is "Fear" is a powerful emotion, and can manifest things into our lives fast! That said, I work very hard to always stay in gratitude, and praise to God, and avoid fear, anger, hate, and other slower frequency or negative thoughts that could manifest what I do not want!

Love and Gratitude
zartgirl Sj
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Old 11-02-2007, 07:33 AM
dannyboybell dannyboybell is offline
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Spekaing of judging!

I was told about the book "The genie in your genes" here on the site so now I'm reading it and yesterday I came across an interesting study done by Gail Ironson(M.D., Ph.D, a leading mind-body medicine researcher, and professor of Psychology & Psychiatry at the University of Miami).

She studied the difference in believing in a Punishing(hell-sending) God vs believing in a benevolent, loving & forgiving god when it comes to progression of the HIV-virus and stated that:

"People who view God as a judgmental God have a CD4(T-helper) cell decline more than twice the rate of those who don't see God as judgmental, and their viral load increases more than three times faster. For example, a precise statement affirmed by these patients is - God will judge me harshly one day. This one item is related to an increased likelihood that the patient will develop an opportunistic infection and die. These beliefs predict disease progression even more strongly than depression."


So thinking you're being judged or punished when having a cold probably won't serve you if recovery is your goal.



Danny
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Old 11-02-2007, 08:28 AM
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Excitement ...

Hello,

Thank you very very much for all of you ... I appreciate ALL of your replies very much.
And Sallyjane, I was indeed stopping you unconsciously. I am sure that I understand what you are saying now. I was looking for "someone" to learn something from, as an OLD habit, and now I am succeeding in letting go of it because I am now more aware of this bad habit that most of the people of most religions suffer from and makes them forget God. Looking for someone will make you forget that what you are seeing is a projection of yourself actually. When one learns something from someone, actually he/she is learning from himself/herself.
Actually I am witnessing how my true self is manifesting this (virtual) reality of ours. I am coming to believe that the universe is how one looks at it, and I am seeing how everyone is acting towards you as you believe so, very interesting!

How you believe the world is, the world is that way. I am now being able to put words of wisdom like a puzzle together and see what the whole picture is becoming like.

I was just wondering if one cannot find his true self in the world, what would happen to him/her after death. Of course there would be an extreme pain in releasing the false beliefs (And that is what I believe is defined in religious books as fire). But I don't get the idea that how may one stay in hell forever, as some religions state so? I mean if the fire is for purification of the soul, then why doesn't it purify the soul for some people?

I have no idea about if one will stay in fire forever or not. But at the present moment I don't think that anyone will stay forever, because of the purifying nature of fire. The fire burns the false beliefs and releases oneself.

I will indeed post new comments as I fit my infinite puzzle of truth together, to help other people to fit their puzzle together too.


Love and Light ...

Elias

Last edited by elias : 11-02-2007 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 11-02-2007, 09:28 AM
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[quote=MoxieMags;11676]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace View Post
Hi Elias, This is my opinion of Good/Evil written eloquently here (in 1948) by Baird T. Spalding.

[color="Blue"][size="3"]"I" in the individual is the first movement of his nature, the central point of his identity. "Am" is that which embodies, or embraces within the "I" - individual identity - whatever it encircles. The "I" is a positive assertion and the "Am" is the qualifying element. "I" is masculine and "Am" is the feminine principle. The "Am" brings forth into being whatever it embraces or conceives. The "Am" must become immaculate in its embracing power if man is to bring forth that which is in Spirit. "I", which is my identity in Spirit, "Am," that which embraces or embodies all that is in God, is the true use of these words. "I am THAT I am", which is the embodiment of God. I can never in reality be anything but THAT which it is in Spirit. "I am THAT I am, and beside me there is no other."


Hi Grace,
Interesting that you would post the quote I was just thinking about posting The artist in the video is amazing!!!!
The Life and Teachings of the Eastern Masters is indeed a wonderful set of books that, I AM sure, have a profound effect on anyone who reads them.
I highly recommend them to anyone who feels the 'pull'.

Part of the All One,
Love, Light, Gratitude & Joy,
Maggie
Love,
Maggie

Maggie,

Thank you for recommending, I am actually trying to see the truth wherever I can see. East, West, Middleeast, anywhere ... . That bad habit of seeing the truth only through a narrow perspective is killing me .

When I see some one with glasses I usually recommend the Bates Method. As I read your blog you believe in changing anything, why not change the habit of wearing Glasses. Reality is VERY VERY VERY different without glasses, if you learn to see, and let go of the mental strain, all is well.

For information visit David's website: Imagination Blindness - A Site Dedicated to the Bates Method of Natural Vision Improvement


God Bless,

Last edited by elias : 11-02-2007 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 11-02-2007, 12:28 PM
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Bates Method

Hi Elias,
Thanks for the link - I had already checked it out when you posted it earlier and am doing some reading there now. And yes, I agree with your comment
"As I read your blog you believe in changing anything, why not change the habit of wearing Glasses. Reality is VERY VERY VERY different without glasses, if you learn to see, and let go of the mental strain, all is well."

Sounds like a plan to me!! - taking off the reading glasses is my goal.
Love,
Maggie
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Old 11-03-2007, 02:48 AM
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Elias, Way cool!

Yep! I figured it was you stopping me from posting! You were not ready for it! Hehehee! That is what is soooo perfect about living this way and being able to listen to the other person without ever talking to them! I have to say I was enjoying your progress as I followed the progression of the thread! I even went so far as to write you a PM and then deleted the whole thing!

I saved that link to the bates eyesight transformation! I want to read it not only for me, but for my daughter! Iza wears glasses the thickness of coke bottles! Here is the cool thing, she has actually made them improve from 400+ to 300+ she did it by believing they were getting better. She can not wait to go back in and have them tested again to see how much better they have gotten again! As far as me, I just got glasses and they drive me crazy! I prefer not to wear them! To me they feel like they don't belong there, so I am thinking that I could really use this site to get rid of them permanently!!! Thanks for posting it!

Blessings, Love, and Gratitude
Sallyjane zartgirl
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Old 11-03-2007, 06:31 AM
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Just appreciation,

I have nothing more say for now, Just my appreciation to you ...

Elias
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