Bedini coil question BLACKLIST

[UncleFester]

It appears I've been put on some sort of secret blacklist for asking about Bedini coil configurations, especially on the 10 coil machine.

First it was Ren. I started conversing with him to get some insight into multi coil machines, and he simply stopped responding. Maybe he thinks I am with the MIB or maybe I am asking too many dumb questions?

Then it was three other people on this forum. It seems as though I should not ask about coil design at all? I have built many SSG single and double coil machines, and I have read all you can possibly read on these systems over the past ten years or so, but I am still missing information, or get conflicting information.

I am working with Charley who worked with Bedini in California. We are trying to get him off grid and get my battery bank on a better charging system than my single SSG can handle. We made a custom litzing machine that will take a max of 6 strands of wire (currently using 20 gauge) and litz the wire as it is wound onto the coil form. The problem is with 300 feet of 6 strands of 20 gauge it ends up being a coil that is 4 inches in diameter and 5 inches long which seems HUGE compared to the coils used on the 10 coil machine.

It appears as though the coils being shipped with the 10 coil machine are 4 strands of 18 gauge, but why do these coils seem as though they only have 100 feet of wire on them?

Thanks,

Tad

[Bit's-n-Bytes]

It appears I've been put on some sort of secret blacklist for asking about Bedini coil configurations, especially on the 10 coil machine.

First it was Ren. I started conversing with him to get some insight into multi coil machines, and he simply stopped responding. Maybe he thinks I am with the MIB or maybe I am asking too many dumb questions?

Then it was three other people on this forum. It seems as though I should not ask about coil design at all? I have built many SSG single and double coil machines, and I have read all you can possibly read on these systems over the past ten years or so, but I am still missing information, or get conflicting information.

I am working with Charley who worked with Bedini in California. We are trying to get him off grid and get my battery bank on a better charging system than my single SSG can handle. We made a custom litzing machine that will take a max of 6 strands of wire (currently using 20 gauge) and litz the wire as it is wound onto the coil form. The problem is with 300 feet of 6 strands of 20 gauge it ends up being a coil that is 4 inches in diameter and 5 inches long which seems HUGE compared to the coils used on the 10 coil machine.

It appears as though the coils being shipped with the 10 coil machine are 4 strands of 18 gauge, but why do these coils seem as though they only have 100 feet of wire on them?

Thanks,

Tad

Tad, don't think that you are any "Blacklist", but some items on the 10 coiler are requested not to be shared. You'll find this forum is very helpful, but if it is your sole intentions to gain information to replicate what John and Rick have built as a product and marketed as such, then it will be keep as a mystery. I myself will share as much information as I can without violating my NDA that I have in place with John and Rick. I do development on some items for them and simply cannot share any information related to those designs. Hope you can see their point of view.

Thanks

Jeff

[Farmhand]

If you go to Truth In Heart CREDIT CARD ORDERING CENTER scroll down to the monopole custom coils, you may get some insight from what they are selling as extra coils.

I think 100 feet of number 18 would work pretty good.

[UncleFester]

Tad, don't think that you are any "Blacklist", but some items on the 10 coiler are requested not to be shared. You'll find this forum is very helpful, but if it is your sole intentions to gain information to replicate what John and Rick have built as a product and marketed as such, then it will be keep as a mystery. I myself will share as much information as I can without violating my NDA that I have in place with John and Rick. I do development on some items for them and simply cannot share any information related to those designs. Hope you can see their point of view.

Thanks

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, that's all the explanation I needed. I didn't realize anyone would want to try and mass produce these units without John's consent, considering most people I've talked to are looking for Solid state units to recondition batteries. To me, the SSG's are great for desulfating batteries and I see the potential to make them self running, but I'm not sure if that alone would make them desirable for a mass produced product.

When I need to quickly recondition a lead acid battery I typically use my capacitor pulser I built or I use the Tetrasodium EDTA method, then cap pulser. But for off grid it's nice to just have the SSG spinning while flipping batteries back and forth every few days instead of constantly having to monitor the cap pulser and use generator power to run it.

We are working on a simplified version of the Brandt switch with processor controls, and I believe that will do the same thing as the large SSG. But it is months away from us finishing the testing and optimizing of these units. Until then I need to get a large SSG working so I can at least keep my 2000AH battery bank in charged and in good shape which has been a real chore.

I guess I will keep doing my trial and error testing of the SSG coils to determine which one works best for this large battery bank. The main problem has been that I burn through hundreds of dollars in wire doing it, of which I don't have to spare at the moment with this economy the way it is.

Thanks for your input,

@Farmhand

Thanks. I've done just that to get a ballpark idea, I just need to test how much less voltage these coils will produce with 2/3's less wire on them than I am currently testing.

Tad

[Farmhand]

Just a thought, my obsevations tell me that one of the tricks to a bedini SSG machine is matching the input voltage to the coil, i'm only new to this but I noticed that with any one particular coil or set of coils of mine when raising the input voltage in small increments (re-tuning after each rise) there is a point at which the output spikes all of a sudden seem to become much more intense in a non linear way. And I think it depends not only on the resistance of the coil but also the strand length.

I may be completely wrong or partially wrong as I don't fully understand the SSG, but I get the "feeling" it's important. And it works for me, 17 volts makes my bike wheel SSG a much more powerful machine than 12 volts with only a small increase in input power but a faster wheel also, 24 volts makes the wheel spin at over 250 rpm to get single spikes which is a bit too fast, when the battery is disconnected while running on 24 volts it sounds like the neon is going to explode.

[Joit]

That is,what i did observe too, that any Coil has a certain Point,
where it is perfect saturated, this depends at the Frequency, Duty cycle and the Voltage.

You can compensate different Voltage with a other Frequency and an other Duty Cycle,
but this Compensation dont works really well with a Rotor,
because it gives you a certain Rpm and in this Case the Frequency,
and therefor you have to adjust the Coils.

[ren]

Dude anyone is free to ask me questions.

I can no longer find the time to respond to them like I used to. I get at least 5 or 6 questions a week from various places, usually regarding information that is available on the net if the person really looks.

Bottom line, I dont have a 10 coiler so its kinda pointless asking me questions regarding it. But I havent blacklisted anyone no heard of any "blacklist".

Regards

[UncleFester]

Dude anyone is free to ask me questions.

I can no longer find the time to respond to them like I used to. I get at least 5 or 6 questions a week from various places, usually regarding information that is available on the net if the person really looks.

Bottom line, I dont have a 10 coiler so its kinda pointless asking me questions regarding it. But I havent blacklisted anyone no heard of any "blacklist".

Regards

Sorry Ren. I wasn't trying to call you out or hammer on you. I was just wondering why so many were so quiet about design parameters. It just seemed very strange.

Tad

[RAMSET]

No black list here, but builders needed!

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ecrets-48.html

Post 1435 [you won't be disappointed]

Chet

[UncleFester]

Thanks Chet. Very good info. Surprized as Mark that it has not been worked on extensively. I will definitely look into it.

After looking at the data it looks like someone else was thinking along the same lines as my theory I worked up about ten years ago. Thin wire with thousands of turns will always outperform larger wire with less turns given the same energy per pulse in terms of field strength. This has been the results so far in my experiments. This effect alone has staggering implications. It's strange that normal EE circles didn't pick up on this a hundred years ago.

Tad

[SeaMonkey]

Thin wire with thousands of turns will always outperform larger wire with less turns given the same energy per pulse in terms of field strength. This has been the results so far in my experiments. This effect alone has staggering implications. It's strange that normal EE circles didn't pick up on this a hundred years ago.

Tad

This is the technique used in certain clocks to
keep the pendulum swinging. Using a coil which
consists of many turns with a low voltage/low
current impulse is easily "pulsed" with minimal
circuitry.

It would also be possible to construct an equally
efficient, or perhaps more-so, coil with many
fewer turns; the trade-off being that the
coil with many fewer turns requires much more
precision in controlling the time duration of the
energizing pulse.

More efficiency is always realized when there are
fewest losses in the coil design; principally as a
function of the DC resistance of the coil.

Excessive wire resistance will always result in losses.

[ren]

Hi SeaMonkey,

I have been pondering this question for a while. When I began I was under the assumption that more turns equals bigger field equals larger spike upon rapid disconnect from source.

After reading around I have come to the conclusion that turns have very little to do with the energy present in the inductive discharge. It would seem to me that this is a result of the energy present in the inductor, and is influenced by how fast the switch disconnects as well. So one could get a much larger inductive spike from a handful of turns with a thick gauge because alot more amperage will be present upon disconnection, or as you say, less losses to resistances.

Now the reason for NOT using a coil with 5 turns in this case is because (IMO):

* it offers very little concentrated field, at least not enough to repel or attract the rotor.

* It would require an incredibly short on time to stay within its time constants.

So it would appear that you do need a minimum of turns to reach your goal of turning the rotor AND developing a reasonable inductive discharge. And you can see JB using this method to also allow for enough induction to trigger the whole process as well, once again requiring a certain amount of turns as well as a certain strength of field on the rotors magnets.

Why does JB use thicker wires in parallel for his more powerful energizers?

IMO this is to reduce resistance and increase amperage flowing in the coil for when it disconnects.

Of course this process needs to be managed well, if one doesnt want to burn up power in the process. Current will flow incredibly fast, especially when your total parallel resistance is less than 1 ohm. So your inductor will quickly reach saturation, and anywhere past this is wasted power.

So one must tread a comfortable middle ground when designing their coils. Big enough to allow for triggering from the rotor (if the Bedini circuit is used)
Lower resistance for more current flowing and thus a larger more powerful inductive discharge, but not at the expense of wasted current.

If you think of a bucket under a tap, the tap being your source and your bucket being the coil. Imagine the nozzle size on the tap as being your wire gauge. The objective being to fill the bucket as fast as possible to the top BUT NO FURTHER, not wasting a drop from overflow, then shutting off the tap as fast as possible which in our electrical world dumps the bucket rapidly as well.

I dont know if Ive covered it correctly but thats how I see the process.

Comments welcome

Regards

[UncleFester]

This is the technique used in certain clocks to
keep the pendulum swinging. Using a coil which
consists of many turns with a low voltage/low
current impulse is easily "pulsed" with minimal
circuitry.

It would also be possible to construct an equally
efficient, or perhaps more-so, coil with many
fewer turns; the trade-off being that the
coil with many fewer turns requires much more
precision in controlling the time duration of the
energizing pulse.

More efficiency is always realized when there are
fewest losses in the coil design; principally as a
function of the DC resistance of the coil.

Excessive wire resistance will always result in losses.

Absolutely! However my results from testing with high voltage capacitor discharge is almost beyond belief.

If you wind two coils of 200 turns of 18 gauge and place them onto a vertical rod in opposite polarity of each other and fire a 3300uF cap charged to 120VDC (23.76 Joules) into the coils, they lift off the base by .75 to 1 inch distance.

If you take a coil with 3000 turns of 30 gauge wire, and then build a second coil. Place the two on a vertical rod in opposition to each other polarity wise, and fire a 5uF cap charge to 3Kv (22.5 Joules), the movement up the rod is massive, upwards of 5 inches or more, even though it weighs double the weight of the low voltage coil!

Thus the field created by the second case is far greater than the first case, even though they are being pulsed with the same amount of energy. This has staggering implications in terms of why Gray's system worked so well, and why other like Konehead and others are building motors of this type and getting very good results over low voltage DC pulse motor designs.

P.S. Do these experiments repeatedly on the lower voltage setup and the coil gets hot. On the high voltage setup it always stays cold or just slightly warm.

Tad

[ren]

Absolutely! However my results from testing with high voltage capacitor discharge is almost beyond belief.

If you wind two coils of 200 turns of 18 gauge and place them onto a vertical rod in opposite polarity of each other and fire a 3300uF cap charged to 120VDC (23.76 Joules) into the coils, they lift off the base by .75 to 1 inch distance.

If you take a coil with 3000 turns of 30 gauge wire, and then build a second coil. Place the two on a vertical rod in opposition to each other polarity wise, and fire a 5uF cap charge to 3Kv (22.5 Joules), the movement up the rod is massive, upwards of 5 inches or more, even though it weighs double the weight of the low voltage coil!

Thus the field created by the second case is far greater than the first case, even though they are being pulsed with the same amount of energy. This has staggering implications in terms of why Gray's system worked so well, and why other like Konehead and others are building motors of this type and getting very good results over low voltage DC pulse motor designs.

P.S. Do these experiments repeatedly on the lower voltage setup and the coil gets hot. On the high voltage setup it always stays cold or just slightly warm.

Tad

Hi Tad.

Interesting that you brought this up.

The biggest launches I got when popping a magnet was through a smaller coil with lots of fine turns (say awg28 1000 turns approx) . I guess the size of the fields (stator and rotor) come into play here too with maximum utilization of the geometry too. But does repulsive force come from High Voltage discharge(high ohm load) or High amperage (low ohm load). Does more turns in a specific area create a stronger repulsive force? It would seem so in some circumstances. Ive yet to play around above 500v discharges, but I would be very interested to see the differences. I know those guys launching aluminum slugs can launch them pretty high with only a ten turn flat coil.

Grays electromagnets were very long, they could have held copious amounts of turns if he so desired.

Wonder if Erfinder has an opinion on this

Regards

[UncleFester]

Hi Tad.

Interesting that you brought this up.

The biggest launches I got when popping a magnet was through a smaller coil with lots of fine turns (say awg28 1000 turns approx) . I guess the size of the fields (stator and rotor) come into play here too with maximum utilization of the geometry too. But does repulsive force come from High Voltage discharge(high ohm load) or High amperage (low ohm load). Does more turns in a specific area create a stronger repulsive force? It would seem so in some circumstances. Ive yet to play around above 500v discharges, but I would be very interested to see the differences. I know those guys launching aluminum slugs can launch them pretty high with only a ten turn flat coil.

Grays electromagnets were very long, they could have held copious amounts of turns if he so desired.

Wonder if Erfinder has an opinion on this

Regards

I have absolutely no clue as to why this works this way, but I'm very glad it does.... lol. This has boggled me for many years but I believe it's probably some state that engineers have missed. The field strength difference between my two coil types has got to be 500 percent or more, which it just should not be given the same energy input. Unless this has to do with coil optimization for a given voltage (ampere-turns etc), which to be honest I don't totally understand.

But knowing that it does work this way, and the tests are valid, then it makes it easy to ponder at how you could use this anomaly to make a real monster of a pulse motor (which is exactly what I am working on atm). It also means that Lindemann's setup and others could increase their torque 5 fold using the same amount of energy.

Tad