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  • Originally posted by StevanC View Post
    A benchmark for output (just thoughts)

    1. A capacitor reportedy converts "whatever" to normal electriricty

    2a. A voltage triggered capacitor dumps always at same amount of charge (Q=const) so we can deduce by time (cadence) if the rate increases or decreases for a fixed load it is powering?

    2b. A time-period triggered capacitor always dumps at same time regardles of chrage amount (dT=const), so we can deduce from the voltage level if there is a increase of input or not. It can be dischraged to a fixed arbitrary load.

    3. A device charging such a capacitor, beit a PSU, a SSG, WM or Kromrey, will see it as a relatively low impedance load (capacitor load), depending of the voltage the capacitor reaches compared to the powering voltage source.
    I suggest ranges 12V -> 25V (powering -> dumping) or about so, and capacitances of 25000 uF up to 80000 uF for output powers of 1...12W range?

    4. This kind of test should be simple to replicate, yet provide enough accuracy to be considered scientific enough?

    my2c
    Great Idea,

    I have some really big caps that I bought for my electric car to offset the motor inductance I could use them and a uP analog reader with digital IO to drive relays to dump the load and take cap readings every 5 seconds That will measure real power out into inductive or resistive loads. Whatever you want...

    Good one
    Pneuphysics

    Comment


    • @pneumaphysics

      Caps ready, heavier wire ready...Whow man. You rock!

      Regards,
      Baroutologos

      Comment


      • Random Musings

        StevanC: Kudos! Excellent suggestions on the use of capacitors to make measurements. Incidentally, capacitors can also be called condensers.

        There are SO many variables with this seductively simple-looking device. EXACTLY how are the coils wound? EXACTLY how are they wired? EXACTLY how are the cores constructed? What is the optimum rotational speed for any given build? What are the optimal dimensions of EVERYTHING? EXACTLY how does the non-magnetic shaft play a role in successful function?

        Posted are a couple screenshots from the DVD. In watching the video I wondered about the non-magnetic shaft. In the chalk-board diagram John shows the magnetic circuit taking in environmental energy in four places: the midpoint of the stacked magnets, and the top and bottom of the shaft. It made me wonder if the core had to have a COMPLETE magnetic break at the shaft location. The chalk drawing shows the core being a solid piece with a non-magnetic shaft going through it, but is the relationship (ratio) between the core diameter and the shaft diameter important? It's not very clear in the closeup screenshot of the rotor shaft and core/coil assembly, but a set-collar can be made of non-magnetic material. Perhaps the each core (top and bottom) is actually two separate cores, making four cores in total?

        This is just one more detail that may or may not be important, but certainly adds to the possible places where secrets can remain obscured, and/or overlooked. Wouldn't it be frustrating to find out that we were looking for the problem (or solution) entirely in the wrong place.

        (Sigh...) As has already been lamented, wouldn't it be nice to have a working one to copy and then play with?
        Attached Files

        Comment


        • I found the post with the all poles facing out the same in the Kromrey. Interesting - not my idea - but information

          Take care,
          Pneuphysics
          Attached Files

          Comment


          • Core to core section

            The cores should provide a massive path to magnet flux AFAIK:

            We want the whole flux to:

            1. accomodate the path

            2. fade swiftly away from within the free broken core(s)

            S it seems logical to me, we want a heavy iron section through the shaft:

            for 12mm iron core, i would go with M10 therad on a 12mm Al or brass shaft IMO.
            I woult take care the core irons hug the shaft neatly ;-)



            (getting qute a few cents hugh? )

            regards,

            Comment


            • Originally posted by StevanC View Post
              The cores should provide a massive path to magnet flux AFAIK:

              We want the whole flux to:

              1. accomodate the path

              2. fade swiftly away from within the free broken core(s)

              S it seems logical to me, we want a heavy iron section through the shaft:

              for 12mm iron core, i would go with M10 therad on a 12mm Al or brass shaft IMO.
              I woult take care the core irons hug the shaft neatly ;-)



              (getting qute a few cents hugh? )

              regards,
              That makes sense to me. Thank you for the reply.

              Comment


              • Well, lots of commenting activity today, nice to see all the minds are stimulated. For what it's worth, I have worked in electronics one way or the other for about 30 years (much to my shock). Sometimes I feel compelled to make "back to basics" comments because it seems that some of you guys (and girls?) have jumped the gun, so to speak. I have not worked with motors since school, and that was only one course. I am not a builder, so that's out in the open. My aim here is to have fun and see if anybody goes the full distance with their convertor and hopefully contribute when I can. If you have read the forums, I am sure that you are all aware that many topics fizzle out and people loose interest, and no tangible results are ever recorded for various projects. It would be so cool to see some of you answer the big questions that you are trying to answer with your replications. I am also not sure what some of the builders goals are with their setups, but I suppose that will become clearer as things progress. All that being said...

                Baroutologos: I will try to answer your question about your diagrams. The design of the convertor indicates completing a magnetic flux path to maximize the magnetic flux. When you go around the path you can model it like it is a bunch of resistors in series and the magnets are like voltage sources. Iron core acts like a low value resistor as long as it is not saturated, and air is like a high value resistor. Therefore it would indicate that completing the flux path would swap a high resistor (air) for a low resistor (iron), giving you more flux "current". I am not giving you a definitive answer, just the basic principles. For example, if your iron core is already saturated with the "air" resistor, do you gain much by swapping it with an "iron" resistor? I think the real answer can be found if you do more research for yourself.

                NoNeed: Note the standard setup is one or more coils, all wired in series, with a load, also in series. So I think that you are incorrect when you mention calculating the coil resistance in parallel with the load resistance. With respect to resonance, honestly a lot of people "abuse" that term. I see no resonance at play in this setup and I can explain further if you want.

                Pneuphysics: Re: The John Bedini wiring that you followed. If you can you should try swapping the wires on one coil to see if your output voltage is 10X larger like I said. It really does look like you are subtracting voltages there. I know that you responded to Kent stating that you got nothing when you crossed the JB wire config. I don't know, something seems strange because your waveforms are 10X higher in voltage than the JB waveforms.

                Timm: I know you are still suspicious of my comments stating that CW vs CCW and how a coil is phisically wound are of no importance. I suggest that you try and experiment to prove it for youself. When your get your USB scope going, try CW vs. CCW, and you shoud see opposite waveforms. Then try CW swaped-wires vs. CCW and you should see the same waveforms. Try winding a coil different ways (same number of turns) and you should see the same waveforms.

                Pneuphysics: Re: Your spreadsheet. I think the big thing that you want to conclude here is the higher number of turns, the higher the AC voltage output. You can clearly see the 1X, 2X, 3X etc, ratios. It is a fundamental principle. The AC voltage is proportional to the value of the inductance, and the value of the inductance is proportional to the number of turns. The motor amps times the voltage are giving you the approximate watts your setup is burning as heat when there is no useful output from the convertor. It is your wattage "overhead" just to keep the setup turning.

                StevanC: I think that you are looking at how capacitors work in Bedini setups where you can clearly see the voltage increasing when connected in the place of the charging battery and mistakenly applying it to the convertor setup. This does not really translate and a cap will not be much use in determining the power output of the convertor. They are simpy two different beasts.

                Kent: Yes you can play with the variables but any work there shoud be focused on the coils and the flux path. You must know that many Mylow replicators fell into a trap where they tried thousands of combinations and got nowhere. Trust me, there is no such thing as "optimal dimensions" of anything. This is an electrical generation device and it should fundamentally operate the same way independent of scale and dimensions, materials uesd for the support colums, etc. Please don't fall into the trap of searching for the "magic" combination, that would be a huge waste of energy and time and expense on your side. If you are curious about the shaft material, discussing it in the forum would be the way to go. How doed it impact on the magnetic flux path for your particular configuration? Those are the types of questions you should be asking. Blindly changing materials and dimensions of parts in search of a Holy Grail is not the way to go. Please don't be offended by my comments I am truly trying to help you.

                Good luck all!

                Comment


                • One final comment:

                  "In watching the video I wondered about the non-magnetic shaft. In the chalk-board diagram John shows the magnetic circuit taking in environmental energy in four places: the midpoint of the stacked magnets, and the top and bottom of the shaft."

                  I assume that this is one of the "big questions" that all of you are trying to answer. Is this device taking in "environmental energy?" What is "environmental energy?"

                  If some of you stick it out for long run, it will be interesting to see what your conclusions end up being.

                  Comment


                  • I have been reading this post and correct me If I am wrong but you guys have the impedance and ohms of resistance wrong.

                    I am specifically speaking of this post http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post59412. Later a couple of others speak of it. Post#341

                    Mr Bedini did not say to raise or match the the resistance he said to eliminate it. Of course he does not make as clear as that, but it wasn't hard to hear what he was saying. (See EFV part 10, at 35minutes)

                    I do not talk tech well, so the simple example would be.... If 100 turns of a given wire AWG give you 4 ohms of resistance then you need 4 wires of the same legnth, for the least amount of resistance or "0" resistance.

                    You cannot grab negative energy on a wire with resistance present.

                    You have to understand what it is in all aspects to see. Positive energy flows, Negative has to be pushed or pulled. Positive heats up, negative cools. Positive is collected on the pole of the magnet, Negative is collected between the poles. ect....

                    If you have resistance, what happens is the negative is collected on the coil from the feild fluxuation after it passes the magnets, then when arriving at the magnets is pushed down the wire. Be cause of the setup in the magnets only very little positve energy is present. Remeber the magnetic flux is in a Cancelled state. This fluxuation is enough to move the negative down the wire.
                    But with resistance present it allows more time for the Positve charge to collect on the wire.
                    When both positve and negative are on the wire they cancel each other out. Reducing your overall net of energy.

                    Oh and you cannot refer to COMMON, EVERDAY, EE BOOKS, or so called EE EDUCATIONS for this info. If you do it will not work.

                    Matt
                    Last edited by Matthew Jones; 07-08-2009, 01:29 AM.
                    ADD BROMIKEY TO YOUR IGNORE LIST He is a saboteur bent on the systematic distraction of every good topic on this forum and since he has been here most working threads have shut down. He is the enemy. If you have blocked him already add this to your signature and encourage others to block him as well. His onslaught of rambling in large text and his constant attempts to misinform at the excuse of being stupid should no longer be tolerated.

                    USER CP/Ignore list.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Matthew Jones View Post
                      I have been reading this post and correct me If I am wrong but you guys have the impedance and ohms of resistance wrong.

                      I am specifically speaking of this post http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...html#post59412. Later a couple of others speak of it. Post#341

                      Mr Bedini did not say to raise or match the the resistance he said to eliminate it. Of course he does not make as clear as that, but it wasn't hard to hear what he was saying. (See EFV part 10, at 35minutes)

                      I do not talk tech well, so the simple example would be.... If 100 turns of a given wire AWG give you 4 ohms of resistance then you need 4 wires of the same legnth, for the least amount of resistance or "0" resistance.

                      You cannot grab negative energy on a wire with resistance present.

                      You have to understand what it is in all aspects to see. Positive energy flows, Negative has to be pushed or pulled. Positive heats up, negative cools. Positive is collected on the pole of the magnet, Negative is collected between the poles. ect....

                      If you have resistance, what happens is the negative is collected on the coil from the feild fluxuation after it passes the magnets, then when arriving at the magnets is pushed down the wire. Be cause of the setup in the magnets only very little positve energy is present. Remeber the magnetic flux is in a Cancelled state. This fluxuation is enough to move the negative down the wire.
                      But with resistance present it allows more time for the Positve charge to collect on the wire.
                      When both positve and negative are on the wire they cancel each other out. Reducing your overall net of energy.

                      Oh and you cannot refer to COMMON, EVERDAY, EE BOOKS, or so called EE EDUCATIONS for this info. If you do it will not work.

                      Matt
                      Hi Matt,

                      I understand what you are saying but one thing I find confusing - in all of the videos i have viewed mostly Tom Bearden talks a lot on the subject of negative energy and the effect impedance has on increasing it - low impedance positive energy moves ahead and high impedance draws negative energy in from the vacuum. Not sure how it relates to Kromrey but I noticed when my 5 filar coils are all in parallel I get the most effect, like you say.

                      But remember Impedance "Z" is different then "R" resistance. Impedance is resistance to AC - a function of the circuits (coils in this case) DC resistance, Capacitance and Inductance - different at different frequencies. IMHO - That is what makes this effect so hard to nail down. Since the frequency is pretty low I am just using DC coil resistance which by the way in 4 4 ohm coils in parallel is 1 ohm not 0 but at some frequency it would be 0 impedance.

                      Hope this helps,
                      Pneuphysics

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MileHigh View Post
                        One final comment:

                        "In watching the video I wondered about the non-magnetic shaft. In the chalk-board diagram John shows the magnetic circuit taking in environmental energy in four places: the midpoint of the stacked magnets, and the top and bottom of the shaft."

                        I assume that this is one of the "big questions" that all of you are trying to answer. Is this device taking in "environmental energy?" What is "environmental energy?"

                        If some of you stick it out for long run, it will be interesting to see what your conclusions end up being.
                        My 2 cents The "environmental energy" is from the annihilation of electrons and their antimatter positrons in sufficient numbers to manifest a measurable event. The simple explanation.

                        Or maybe just magic

                        Night
                        Pneuphysics

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MileHigh View Post
                          One final comment:

                          If some of you stick it out for long run, it will be interesting to see what your conclusions end up being.

                          MileHigh,

                          Thanks for your comments !!
                          Every forum like this needs someone grounded, challenging every statement, and providing a explaination grounded in traditional theory. Of course, everyone want to find a breakthrough, and sometimes they jump to conclusions based on a couple data points.
                          I appreciate your respectful comments to differing, non-traditional opinions !

                          It would be nice to see the builder/blogger ratio increase, but it is what it is.

                          Timm

                          Comment


                          • Still building...

                            I'm still designing, testing and building a G-Field Converter.
                            My slip rings should be complete by end of this week.

                            Also documenting everything I can at:
                            Bedini Kromrey G-Force Converter

                            This website is a "work in progress" so don't take it for anything more than a place for me to gather my ideas nor comment on the incompleteness or ugliness of it.

                            These designs have not been tested, as I don't have a working model yet.
                            I will modify this website as I determine what works and what doesn't work from trial and error from my testing and the testing results of others on this forum.

                            Thank you to everyone who's keeping this project on track!

                            DonL
                            Last edited by dllabarre; 07-08-2009, 05:00 AM.
                            Don

                            Comment


                            • We Need to think differently

                              Mile High: Note the standard setup is one or more coils, all wired in series, with a load, also in series. So I think that you are incorrect when you mention calculating the coil resistance in parallel with the load resistance.

                              Of course the load resistor is in series if you are thinking in conventional terms but this generator and it's outputs are far from conventional, if you told me before I saw the DVD that a Generator exists that will accelerate when loaded or even shorted I would have said that is impossible

                              I have seen first hand what a 400hz aircraft AC Gen does when it's output leads short together or are sent to ground, they arc weld and the generator overheats from the massive load put on it's conventional geometry

                              We Need to think differently

                              The reason I thought about considering the load resistor was in parallel was because of this statement that I found,

                              Perhaps "true negative resistors" operate differently when they are in this state of tapping energy from the vacuum

                              "The source dipole, once made, is a true negative resistor that freely extracts observable, usable field energy from the vacuum, and pours it out through the terminals of the generator or battery. The outflowing energy moves at light speed through all space surrounding the conductors of the external circuit, and generally parallel to them. It's a tiny bit convergent into the wires, because in the "sheath" or boundary layer of the flow right down on the surface of the conductors, that part of the flow strikes the surface charges and gets diverged into the wires to power up the electrons and the circuit."



                              Timm: You had asked sometime ago about different methods of winding.

                              I'd be interested in anyone's experience with coil fabrication with respect to windings. Different ways to wind the coil... Which ways reduce the inductance/impedance ? Are there ways to provide a capacitance effect via the wind configuration ?

                              We've had multi-filar and twisted multi-filar... Does anyone have data to suggest what twisting does to the reisistance/inductance/ impedance ?
                              Are there other tricks ?

                              Here are some good Ground Rules for winding coils

                              with regards to the Impedance of a coil, the rule of thumb is:

                              - the more "packed" or concentrated in a smaller volume around the iron core, the higher the inductance and, hence, the impedance; this is why
                              I always wind my coils by hand on a lathe at very slow speed to make sure the coils are as tightly packed together as possible
                              - the more a coil resembles a long solenoid (small diameter and high axial length), the higher the inductance;
                              - the tighter the windings are wrapped around the iron core, the higher the inductance for a given number of turns.
                              Note that impedance is directly related to inductance, since the impedance is proportional to the product of coil inductance and frequency of the ac voltage across the coil.

                              As for the multifilar and twisted windings: for higher frequency signals, a multifilar winding is desirable if a higher quality factor (a.k.a. Q)is sought, due to the "depth of field penetration" effect of high frequency signals (the higher the frequency, the lower the depth of penetration), which causes the current to flow only through the skin of the wire (as opposed to the whole cross sectional area).

                              The low penetration depth effectively increases the wire resistance, and so multifilar wires are employed to obtain a certain inductance with low resistance (to obtain a high Q coil).
                              Twisting the multifilar wires has the effect of reducing the mutual capacitance of adjacent turns, in order to obtain coils with lower equivalent capacitance. This is desirable when coil capacitance plays a significant role in the system that employs it, since the coil capacitance tends to "short" the high frequency signal across the coil terminals, effectively attenuating or filtering such signals in an unwanted way.
                              Also, winding the coil with criss-cross turns in adjacent layers (reducing the parallelism between turns) reduces the coil capacitance.





                              NoNeed
                              NoNeed

                              "Why burn fuel when there is no need"

                              Comment


                              • @ Milehigh

                                Thanks for giving us info and guidance since most of us lack practical as theoretical knowledge of "traditional" (and proven) insights in the electric engeeing art.
                                But, bear in mind we are not the conventional type of generator we seek. Those types will behave far from standard types one. Shorted run cool and withoutout any drag. On the contrary assist rotation!

                                @
                                Noneed

                                Yes dude i have (observations and theory yet) reached same conclusions.

                                * Coils should be elongated or to put it in another way, the wire/iron ratio should be great than our standard coils. Thus we achieve the greater possible inductunce with lower wire resistance. (laminations are of essence here)
                                * Thicker wires equal less resistance and better performance.
                                * Finnaly best way to counter inductunce and increase output at specific conditions (high frequency etc) is to wound coils ala Tesla type. Bifilar series wound or Capacitor coil. (tested by other credible persons - not me yet)
                                ............................................
                                By the way there is always the issue -after setting up this type of generator- to how efficiently experience the best COP.
                                ............................................
                                Lastly IMO wiring of coils regarding CW or CCW is of no importance (only for triggering at SSG). Just do it Bedini way and do not be concerned any more with that.

                                regards,
                                Baroutologos

                                Comment

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