3 Battery Generating System

[hherby]

Booster 2 connection

@Bi,
I have data only for the first run of the 3BGS setup with booster, which last only 11,27 hours, until differential voltage drop below inverter low voltage limit (9,6 volt).
Second run is not complete, and I added also a second booster, for recovering some energy in the primaries. The results looks so far promising, but, I believe now the load it's too big for the system, so I may drop one led bulb, to see if I can balance the system.
In attachments, you will find also the schematics with one booster and with two boosters, I hope they are clear enough.
Best regards,
Teodor.

Teodor,
The output of booster 2 should be connected to the + of battery 1 according to your diagram. You show it connected between battery 2 and battery 1
Cheers,
Alex

[axxelxavier]

Teodor,
The output of booster 2 should be connected to the + of battery 1 according to your diagram. You show it connected between battery 2 and battery 1
Cheers,
Alex

@Alex, thank you for your reply.
You are right, I've notice a significant fall from battery 1, so I will make the modification tomorrow evening, when i will run again my setup.
This is for me the most obvious proof that booster 2 mod is working, because even now, batt 2 and 3 are in equilibrium, and batt 1 which is not helped by booster 2, drops slowly voltage.
Best regards,
Teodor.

[Iamnuts]

Point.

A point I was trying to get across was RTE.
I did this test with lithium ion because it is fairly accurate.
I used 1780 mah from my battery. I then charged my battery with
my IMAX B6. This showed me that it needed 2000 mah. to recharge.
This means that the efficiency was 89%.
100% was coming from the wall and I got back 89% of that from my
battery.
Aaron couldn’t seem to grasp this.
From what I get from various sources is that, for lead acid, it is sort of
the 90% mark.
The IMAX manual says it is difficult to determine full charge with la, that’s
why I used li ion.
According to me this is a factor in 3BGS.
John.

[Iamnuts]

A few facts.

According to the forklift boys.
Use a modern charger.
Never go below 70% DOD.
Don’t overwater a new battery at break-in.
Don’t if possible give a lunch-time boost charge.
1500 cycles is decent.
Don’t over-charge.
Never let electrolyte below top of plates.

[citfta]

There is no comparison between Li-ion and LA batteries. They are totally different. I use LA batteries regularly for my research into the possibility of OU. I use Li-ion regularly in my RC airplanes so I am familiar with the charging and care of both types of batteries.

Just for your information I tried a little test yesterday. I have a good battery analyzer that will give me the actual CCA of a battery and the internal resistance. I took a badly sulphated battery and measured a CCA of only 36.66 CCA. This battery is supposed to have a CCA of 145. It is a small U1 type of battery. These are the very minimum size battery you can use to prove the 3BGS system will work.

I pulsed the battery with 15.5 volts with a duty cycle of 25% and a frequency of 20 hz. After pulsing the battery for about 8 hours I let it rest overnight. When tested again this morning I got a CCA of 45.40 and an internal resistance of 65.50 milliohms. The previous internal resistance was 72.28 milliohms. So both the CCA and internal resistance shows that the proper charging of a battery can restore and keep a battery in good condition.

And I did see the battery reach a plateau of about 14.45 volts and just sit there. It was at that point I believe the desulphation was taking place.

I will keep pulsing this battery until I can't get it to restore any further and see how far it can be restored. It has been sitting for over a year without any use or charging so if it can even be restored to half of it original capacity that if proof enough for me that pulse charging and using a higher voltage for charging than is normally used is the proper way to take care of a battery.

Carroll

[bistander]

Battery testing

There is no comparison between Li-ion and LA batteries. They are totally different. I use LA batteries regularly for my research into the possibility of OU. I use Li-ion regularly in my RC airplanes so I am familiar with the charging and care of both types of batteries.

Just for your information I tried a little test yesterday. I have a good battery analyzer that will give me the actual CCA of a battery and the internal resistance. I took a badly sulphated battery and measured a CCA of only 36.66 CCA. This battery is supposed to have a CCA of 145. It is a small U1 type of battery. These are the very minimum size battery you can use to prove the 3BGS system will work.

I pulsed the battery with 15.5 volts with a duty cycle of 25% and a frequency of 20 hz. After pulsing the battery for about 8 hours I let it rest overnight. When tested again this morning I got a CCA of 45.40 and an internal resistance of 65.50 milliohms. The previous internal resistance was 72.28 milliohms. So both the CCA and internal resistance shows that the proper charging of a battery can restore and keep a battery in good condition.

And I did see the battery reach a plateau of about 14.45 volts and just sit there. It was at that point I believe the desulphation was taking place.

I will keep pulsing this battery until I can't get it to restore any further and see how far it can be restored. It has been sitting for over a year without any use or charging so if it can even be restored to half of it original capacity that if proof enough for me that pulse charging and using a higher voltage for charging than is normally used is the proper way to take care of a battery.

Carroll

Hi citfta,

You do realize that internal resistance and CCA (cold cranking Amperes, which is related to internal resistance) are not real indicators of capacity, although batteries with low capacity due to sulfation tend to also exhibit low CCA and high internal resistance. Does your good battery analyzer have a capacity test (Ah)?

U1 is garden tractor cranking battery size. I think the 145CCA is the least available sometimes on sale under $20. As such, the quality could be questionable. Do you even have a specification for internal resistance or Ah? Let alone tested values when new?

I found over the course of testing a thousand or so high quality AGM batteries that incoming quality was an issue so every one was tested for capacity. Ampere hours, or actually watt hours, was our primary criteria. Always had 1 to 3 fail completely on arrival whether lot size was 1, 3, 12, or 100. Then remaining were sorted to tested Ah, with like a 20% variance. Without accurate benchmark testing on the actual sample, valid, reliable data from subsequent testing is tough. You really don't know what you started with.

Anyway, I like to see you testing that U1. Just a couple days ago I bought several batteries in from the barn to basement due to the forecast -20°F. One of which was a new "cheap" FLA U1. I bought it last summer for my mower but it didn't fit due to fill caps. Need a VRLA with smooth top. For the $16, I just kept the FLA thinking I had a use for it elsewhere. So, I was thinking I'd run some tests on it to Aaron's magic 15.2V dip. I need a way to record charge voltage vs time. My CBAIII doesn't have that feature.

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Li-ion RTE

A point I was trying to get across was RTE.
I did this test with lithium ion because it is fairly accurate.
I used 1780 mah from my battery. I then charged my battery with
my IMAX B6. This showed me that it needed 2000 mah. to recharge.
This means that the efficiency was 89%.
100% was coming from the wall and I got back 89% of that from my
battery.
Aaron couldn’t seem to grasp this.
From what I get from various sources is that, for lead acid, it is sort of
the 90% mark.
The IMAX manual says it is difficult to determine full charge with la, that’s
why I used li ion.
According to me this is a factor in 3BGS.
John.

Hi Iamnuts,

That's odd. The coulombic efficiency of Lithium ion batteries is usually greater than 99%. From my experience, 100%. The RTE figure is lower but pretty much entirely attributed to voltage drop.

Regards,

bi

[Iamnuts]

Agree.

Bi,
just found this;

28 Oct 2016 · Tesla just released all the details of its Powerwall 2 and it is a ... 7 kW peak; Round Trip Efficiency: 89% for AC Powerwall, 91.8% for DC ...

[Aaron]

Unconventional battery facts

A point I was trying to get across was RTE.
I did this test with lithium ion because it is fairly accurate.
I used 1780 mah from my battery. I then charged my battery with
my IMAX B6. This showed me that it needed 2000 mah. to recharge.
This means that the efficiency was 89%.
100% was coming from the wall and I got back 89% of that from my
battery.
Aaron couldn’t seem to grasp this.
From what I get from various sources is that, for lead acid, it is sort of
the 90% mark.
The IMAX manual says it is difficult to determine full charge with la, that’s
why I used li ion.
According to me this is a factor in 3BGS.
John.

I already clarified that I understood that and also that what you claim to be battery science fact applies onto to low quality charging that never hits the topping event. Obviously, batteries will deteriorate over time - unless you hit the topping event as shown in the graph from the "Battery Bible."

For your information, around 2004 when Peter Lindemann worked at John's they did a lot of non-stop charge/discharge tests - that was during the week. The graphs all showed that they were able to discharge more from the battery than what went into them - it was absolutely overunity so your coveted round trip efficiency was over 100% with flooded cell lead acid batteries, indisputably - and it seemed to happen predictably every single time. Then over the weekend, the batteries sat and come Monday, the charge and discharge cycle showed that the overunity disappeared. Just sitting a couple days was enough to nullify whatever conditioning effects were happening in the battery that allowed the gains. That was all solid state, without a wheel spinning and without considering any mechanical work done. Most people will never see this because most people will never do that many consecutive charge and discharge cycles to see it.

"Various sources"?? Why not find out yourself so you can be your own source of information by actually doing the experiments? If I listened to all the various sources out there, I would have never accomplished anything because everything would already have been figured out.

There is no battery capacity analyzer in the world that will give an exact indication of what is in a lead acid battery. I remember John and Peter wrestling with this with all kind of meters they had and none of them were very good. I sort of recall John communicating with B & K to give them feedback on the deficiencies on their expensive battery analyzers. Some are better than others, some are pretty close, but nothing gives a more accurate measurement than charging a battery up and discharging it with a 20 hour rated load to calculate how many Joule seconds you got back. There are obvious situations where it would be good to know what the load-powering capability is without having to drain the battery.

However, if you have the battery full charged by a very specific method to a certain voltage and you do the draw down test - the CBA-IV automates this, you will see exactly what you got out of the battery until it gets down to a certain voltage. That gives you a good benchmark to go by. If you charge the battery up by the same method until it gets to the same voltage, you can be guaranteed that you will be within just a couple percent of your last draw down test. That is valuable information.

That can be done with the 3 Battery method so it does not have to be an issue or factor as you say. If the total work done exceeds what you start with and it is obviously well above a few percent difference, then it is over 1.0 COP, which it is. Instead of focusing on every reason why it can't work - why not focus on how it can be done?

Conceptually, this could work better with LiFePo4 batteries since they have ultra low impedance compared to lead acids. Babcock stair stepped his 24v LiFePo4 bank with his single coil SG up bit by bit and wound up with his battery banks charged up with more voltage and capacity than what they started with. Those batteries aren't supposed to like spikes or cap dumps, but they didn't complain the whole time there were being charged on the single coil SSG with inductive spikes. Long term, I don't know the effects on those batteries, but I saw this happen and I wasn't the only one.



Keep in mind Lithiums are constant voltage batteries and lead acids are constant current - so you are comparing apples to oranges.


There are only two points you have tried to make in this.

1. You get less from the battery than what you put into it - this can be and has been defeated many times. Concepts such as recycling electricity so to speak ought to ring a bell so one would think, "Hmmm, maybe I should actually listen to something that may benefit me!" Others have their ideas why and I have my own ideas, but the bottom line is that it can be defeated.

2. A battery will lose capacity over time and this only happens when the batteries are chronically undercharged. I show you a graph from a 2A12 Bedini charger showing the capacity goes up on each charge and what is your response? To post a charge showing the decrease in battery capacity over time, which is irrelevant if one knows how to charge the battery up to begin with? You're not bringing anything new to the table except for the desire to see the glass half empty. Bring them to a true topping charge and you can increase capacity even above the manufacturers rating and keep it there. If there is something that someone cannot grasp, such as yourself, it is this indisputable fact proven by people all over the world. You seem knowledgeable enough to understand the simple logic behind the Battery Bible chart. Why argue it without testing it out for yourself? Why you cannot admit this is true means you are only trying to maintain a confirmation of what you already believe instead of learning something new.

You admitted yourself you failed in the Bedini experiments so you are the one who was not able to grasp what was taught or did not actually apply what you learned. That is on you and not on anyone that is getting real results.

[bistander]

Question

...
1. You get less from the battery than what you get out of it - ...

Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. But I don't understand the above quoted sentence. Seems to contradict itself.

Regards,

bi

[Aaron]

edit

Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. But I don't understand the above quoted sentence. Seems to contradict itself.

Regards,

bi

I corrected it.

[axxelxavier]

Ok, so I've got final results...33 Hours running time, less than before.
Before jumping to a conclusion, let me tell you a few things about my setup: I used only one booster, in the beginning, and the current draw raised big time, from 2 A to almost 2,8 A.
After a resting time, I've removed a led bulb from load, to fit in C20 rate, so now the load was 2 A again.
I've added, also, a second booster, initially, to positive of the second from series batteries, and voltage for bat 2 and 3 was, for some time, very steady, but bat 1 has lost some power. In the end, I've hooked up the second booster to the positive of the first one from the series batteries. But all setup was unstable, so from time to time, I had to remove second booster from setup, to aloud Batt 3 to be charged, and after a while, I connected again, to charge also battery 1.
The results was not as I've expected, but, I have to admit this was a hybrid test, and the load was exceeded C20 rate for a good period of time.
What it was interesting, though, on this final setup: there was no need to rotate batteries, only to connect / disconnect second booster when needed.
I am going to recharge two from my primary batteries using the same charger as before (CTEK MSX 5.0), and maybe I am going to try again.
Anyway, I am open to opinions / critics / suggestions.
Best regards,
Teodor.

[Iamnuts]

Interesting sort of chart

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content...2/figure-1.gif

[Turion]

Circuits

None of the 3 Battery stuff we have posted can be “scaled up” to run your house. The whole purpose has been to teach some basic concepts about how this stuff works and get you to look at what is ACTUALLY going on in these circuits so you will learn some things that can be applied to OTHER circuits. You need a scope and you need to take measurements of every part of the circuit and you need to use your brain and think a bit. Or don’t. It is always your choice.

[axxelxavier]

None of the 3 Battery stuff we have posted can be “scaled up” to run your house. The whole purpose has been to teach some basic concepts about how this stuff works and get you to look at what is ACTUALLY going on in these circuits so you will learn some things that can be applied to OTHER circuits. You need a scope and you need to take measurements of every part of the circuit and you need to use your brain and think a bit. Or don’t. It is always your choice.

Hmm, I thought this thread is about makers, about sharing experiences, about learning together from each other. I shared without any restriction all that I have learned, with failures and small progresses, sometimes...
I am not complaining about anything, I don't ask anything, I'm not judging no one, I am only asking:
what is the purpose of this thread, after all?
Anyway, I want to thank everyone who tried to help me: hat off!
Good luck in your researches!
Best regards,
Teodor.