3 Battery Generating System

[Turion]

Circuit

Matt’s latest post using the light instead of the motor was to examine exactly what was going on in the circuit, regarding movement of current, NOT to achieve the goal the circuit was designed to achieve. When you are looking to understand something you take it down to the most basic parts that still allow it to function as a circuit, and then ADD parts to see the effect they have on the operation of the circuit. The things we want to happen in the circuit are NOT going to happen with a light bulb as a load. Or without a modified motor, or without the right generator. Those are the facts as we know them. At least with THIS BASIC CURCUIT. You can either build the correct circuit and see what we see or not. I could care less. You believe I have a responsibility to PROVE this works, but YOU have NO responsibility to actually REPLICATE the correct circuit? Please! Why should I bother if you can’t build it correctly anyway.

[bistander]

Diagrams

If you will remember, I SAID it would not work with a stock motor. Even THEN, your success will be determined by the output of your generator. Lots of things to play with here.

But Matt's latest video experiment used no motor, just 3 batteries, a boost converter and a led lamp as a load. I intend to replicate it within the next few days.

Matt, any chance of posting a diagram so I get it right and can use it for data presentation?

Altrez, I might comment but am unsure which circuit you built and what your load was. Can you post a diagram or photo of the entire circuit with connections plainly visible?

I do like having a number of people offering analysis.

Regards,

bi

[Turion]

Efficiency of a motor

I should also mention that some of you here measure the efficiency of a motor by what % of the input is converted to mechanical energy. I measure the efficiency of a motor by how much of the input I collect and recycle while still getting it to do the required amount of work. A difference in perspective, but reason for us to believe that some motors you call “highly efficient” are what we might call “ crap.” In some cases I don’t CARE how much input goes into the motor because I am getting such a high % of it returned. It is not input vs output, it is consumption vs output which is a whole different animal.

[altrez]

Can someone please give me some feedback on my tests and let me know if I did something wrong?

-Altrez

[Turion]

Reminder

If you will remember, I SAID it would not work with a stock motor. Even THEN, your success will be determined by the output of your generator. Lots of things to play with here.

[ricards]

Yeah not a big deal, but this is all about efficiency right?.. If I have my Inductive discharges shunted through the diode, very little or no energy flows back to the source battery..

As matt stated we should only read like 10% of the current on the ground side, because most current flows back through the motor coils back to the source battery.. In bistander case that’s not the scenario.. so there’s something wrong..

I see the circuit as still the 3 battery circuit, just inverted. With a diode and additional circuitry..

And I don’t know where the probes are on the motor when voltage is measured.. but it should read the voltage of the boost module.. maybe adding additional capacitor bank should help??.. so the capacitor is not fully discharged to 12v on motor-on time?..

For a proof of concept circuit.. it is really easy to disprove this by putting meters all over the place.. like bistander did.. Intentionally or not..

But for a learning circuit.. this is really something..

[dragon]

Ricards excellent rendition of the currents flowing in the circuit clearly show that they all converge on the positive line adding to the total average of current.

I was simply focusing on the positive line currents pointing out that this might not be a good measuring point to assess capacity and run time. It wasn't my intention for it to become a big deal... just an observation.

[altrez]

Hello,

Here are a few more results from my test last night. Lets start with what I am seeing coming from my battery going to the boost converter.



This next pic is a amp test from the positive of the boost converter going into the positive of the motor while the motor is running.



As you can see it is less then then what I am measuring coming from the battery into the boost converter.

This is a test from the negative of the motor going to the positive of the battery.



So almost the same on each leg.

And here is a pic on the main battery voltage while running.



That was a basic test of the first part of the circuit.

I feel like there is about 800ma going back into the positive connection of the main battery. so it takes about ~400ma to run the motor with no load on my test setup.

Did I miss anything here?



-Altrez

[ricards]

Currents.png

This is how I see it..

The red line is the current when the Inductor of boost module is charged
The Greed Line is the combined current that charges the cap when it is less 12v and the inductive discharge of the Inductor when the switch is cutoff..
The Blue Line is the current of the to the motor-battery series on the parallel with charged cap of the boost module when on switch on position..
The Brown is the Inductive discharge path of the motor on switch off position.

ya'll see the average. on the wires.

[altrez]

I did a quick test. Here is the start.





Here is boost converter.



Here is running.



Just the small razor motor stock.

The motor made odd sounds while running not sure why.

-Altrez

[dragon]

The same drawing marked up...

I see 2 separate circuits making up 2 individual current loops sharing a common path.

[Matthew Jones]

Ya I am not arguing with you I think your right, but what I am saying is, should the boost show a current on the ground side? And because it does where is the current coming from? We aren't pushing any current towards ground... I could see it being balanced if we looped back to ground but we are not..

Now if those shared current are passing through the boost converter and making it to the motor then that current is all being used by the motor and the count on the ground side is just the contribution by the boost converter. Either way 4+ amps was going through the converter to the motor, it had no where else to go. If it went to ground the motor wouldn't run and that would mean the efficiency drops off and what we see on the ground side is waisted power.

So boost converter does this: It pulls current from the positive pole of the battery into the inductor. The induction in the inductor stalls the current making it rise to a higher voltage. The switch shuts off the inductor discharges over time through the output diode. The smoothing caps keep it at the required voltage by leveling it over time.

Now we take that current at higher voltage now, run it through the motor, discharge it out the motor send it back to the battery. It hits the beginning of the amp meter raises the current over the contributed energy, and because it already high voltage skip over the top of the inductor and goes into the motor along with what ever the inductor just put in.
If it wasn't doing that it would hit the battery and NOT show up as current flowing. BY your own diagram.

So is the ground current valid for anything other than showing what is contributed. Because the watts past through the motor are what matter, or do they not matter and we are only concerned with what comes out of the battery. Because if that was case it would be horse power measurement obviously more work could be done on 4 amps in the motor than 3 amps. So either way we come out ahead. One or the other is the best way to measure but either way that current is going into the motor.

There is only so many ways to put it...

Matt

[dragon]

This is basically what I was saying... Fig 1 shows a basic layout of the diagram Dave posted and bistander is working with. ( minus the generator portion ).

We can see there is 2 current paths that are shared on the positive side - The boost circuit running between positive and negative of the battery and the motor circuit running on the potential between the boost coil ends.

The amp meter on the shared positive will read both currents, the one on the neg side will read only that being drawn by the boost converter.

Fig 2 shows a 2 battery system with 2 separate loads, one for each battery but the positive line is shared. Even though each load requires 5 amps the shared line sees both currents flowing.

Measuring the combined currents on the positive side might be misleading, also the run time based on battery capacity would be off to some degree...

That's all I was pointing out...

[altrez]

https://m.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Motor-Fle...8mm+shaft.TRS0

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Helica...GuL&ref=plSrch

Thank you so much!!

-Altrez

[Matthew Jones]

So this video addresses Dragons concerns about ground side measurement. Well somewhat anyway. You see my point of view and it should give you something to think about.

If the currents are equal we are loosing power, it might even be power that we had nothing to do with, just an environmental generation of power.

I am trying to make people think, because with thought comes the resolution. We might even find more power than we are putting in if we can find an answer to why the 2 have to be so different.

If the Boost converter is only only contributing what you see on the ground side measurement and the hot measurement is the combination of the 2 sides converging, then why is it flowing through the inductor? Why doesn't the ground reflect everything that moves through the inductor? Can we just build up the current and allow it to flow freely while limiting the amount we add?

To me the answer to what is happening is clear. There is more power hear then we can account for and we are trying to resolve it with the tools we have been given, while those tools may be flawed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv5r...ature=youtu.be

Just think about it.

Matt