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  • SkyWatcher
    replied
    Hi all, Hi turion, thanks for sharing.
    Look forward to the video you will be sharing in a way you think we will not expect.

    Also, 2 men can be standing beside each other and looking at the same thing, we should not assume each are seeing the same thing, and that includes ufo's.
    Seen much myself in this weird, wild realm we are in.

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    A couple things before I go

    When I get the time to rerun the experiment bi just did, I will post my results to compare to his. Good or Bad.

    Second, when I get the generator put back together, which I am working on now, I will shoot some video and you will all have access to that, though maybe not in a way you expect.

    Three, my final thoughts about the 3 Battery system. The one thing you should have understood from the 3 battery system is that the energy is NOT consumed by the load. All else flows from that understanding. It has brought me to where I am now.

    I have nothing more on the 3BGS that I am willing to disclose, and the gen info you will get when it is available. So coming here is a waste of my time. I will see you all when there is something worth discussing that I CAN discuss.

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  • Turion
    replied
    Test results

    bi,
    Unlike some past experiments, you did this exactly right, and I can't argue with your results. I am going to have to go back and find my notes and redo my test. It wasn't QUITE the same as yours, as I had several of the smaller batteries in parallel, but close enough that the results should have been the same. At the time, I was worried about overcharging a single small battery and having it explode. I also worked my way down from a fully charged battery that I kept discharging before measuring. But I measured EXACTY the way you did. SO I find no fault with anything you did. Now I just need to figure out WHY we saw different results. Could be I was seeing things. I saw a UFO's twice. Nobody believed that either.

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  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by NROC View Post
    Hey bi,

    Looking at your circuit, you have a red lead from positive of the lead acid bat going through a clamp ammeter to the +ve of the motor. Then you have the -ve of the motor going to a black cable which looks like its going to the negative of the 1.5v batt when its supposed to go to the +ve of the 1.5v batt. I dont know why you havent shown exactly where that black cable from the motor is going?

    Can you show the entire setup?
    Hi NROC,

    Here's a photo near the end of my test showing the test leads in question. There is a red clip lead from AA+ to a black clip lead going to motor plug. Just an extra clip lead I left in there because I was breaking the circuit there and could easily reach other points in circuit.

    No funny stuff. I just tried to get close enough to show meter values. I'll hold off recharge in case you want another photo or test. Just ask.

    Regards,

    bi

    ps. Be interesting to see what it does this morning after a night to recover. Lead-acid always seem to bounce back or recover some charge from just resting OC after a discharge. I suspect that was the reason the motor ran for Turion. He may have waited longer between discharge and motor run attempt. I moved quickly and did not give it a chance to recover. The AA cell has nothing to do with it except for being an additional load on the 12V battery.

    {edit}
    Today, after setting open circuit, overnight, the lead-acid battery showed a bit over 8V and the AA was about 1.3V. The lead battery would run the motor by itself as well as when the AA was put in series, negative to negative. Just normal expected behavior for batteries.



    Attached Files
    Last edited by bistander; 07-21-2019, 11:41 PM. Reason: Added info

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  • NROC
    replied
    Is Your Circuit Wired Up correctly?

    Hey bi,

    Looking at your circuit, you have a red lead from positive of the lead acid bat going through a clamp ammeter to the +ve of the motor. Then you have the -ve of the motor going to a black cable which looks like its going to the negative of the 1.5v batt when its supposed to go to the +ve of the 1.5v batt. I dont know why you havent shown exactly where that black cable from the motor is going?

    Can you show the entire setup?

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    ... So I take it this means you do not accept my theory that the energy is not consumed by the load? Or that the energy is still in the battery just equalized between the two sides?
    Let's put it this way. I accept the science and theories which are well established and easily found in many reputable textbooks and college curriculums. Theories are like claims. You're expected to provide proofs. The authors and professors do this and have been for a very long time for the views I hold. Case in point; how the lead-acid cell works.

    https://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/lead.htm

    The present lead-acid cell consists, in a state of full charge, of a negative plate, or cathode, of spongy lead in a grid of hard lead, a positive plate, or anode, of PbO2*paste in a grid of hard lead, and an electrolyte of dilute sulphuric acid of specific gravity 1.28. This is a 37% solution, with 472.5 g/l of H2SO4. At full discharge, the electrolyte is of specific gravity 1.05, an 8% solution containing 84.18 g/l of acid. Both plates are coated with PbSO4. Approximately 4 moles of acid are used per litre, which corresponds to 213 A-h of charge (an ampere-hour is a current of one ampere flowing for one hour, or 3600 coulomb). Assuming that 4 moles of Pb are reacted at the cathode, and 4 moles of PbO2*at the anode, the total weight of active materials is about 3 kg. This gives a weight-to-capacity ratio of 14 g/A-h. Of course, this is much lower than is required for a practical battery, with case, electrode grids and other necessities. However, a limit of perhaps 25 g/A-h represents the maximum that can be expected of a lead-acid battery, and a limit of about 200 A-h per litre of electrolyte volume.

    The cathode reaction is Pb + SO4++*→ PbSO4*+ 2e-. For each atom of lead, two electrons pass through the external circuit when the cell is delivering current. At the anode, the reaction is PbO2*+ 4H+*+ 2SO4++*+ 2e-*→ PbSO4*+ 2H2O. This reaction uses the two electrons sent by the cathode through the external circuit. For each two electrons, two molecules of acid are turned into two molecules of water and two molecules of lead sulphate. The electrode potential of the cathode reaction is -0.355V, and the electrode potential of the anode reaction is 1.685V, at standard concentrations. The net potential difference is 1.685 - (-0.355) = 2.040V. At the concentrations in a fully charged battery, the potential difference is closer to 2.2V, decreasing to 2.0V for a fully discharged battery.

    It is easy to measure the specific gravity of the electrolyte with a hydrometer, and this gives an accurate estimate of the state of charge of the battery. This is one of the great advantages of the lead-acid cell. Note that the electrode reactions do not show any evolution of gases. With open cells, there is in fact some emission of H2*and O2, so the water lost in this way must be replenished regularly. This was once a regular duty in servicing a car, but modern batteries require very little care, and some are sealed, venting gas only when necessary. Also, ventilation was necessary to prevent the hydrogen from becoming an explosion hazard. When ordinary car batteries are charged rapidly, water is electrolyzed.

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  • Turion
    replied
    Lol

    I gotta hand it to you bi, you will go to any lengths to try to discredit me, including running a perfectly good battery down to nothing. Good for you! I SINCERELY APPRECIATE the fact that you ACTUALLY tried the experiment. So I take it this means you do not accept my theory that the energy is not consumed by the load? Or that the energy is still in the battery just equalized between the two sides?
    Last edited by Turion; 07-21-2019, 04:29 AM.

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  • bistander
    replied
    My test

    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    Then run the motor on the battery until it WONT run and THEN try the experiment. Thatís the whole POINT bi. You have to actually LOOK at things on the bench and quit depending on what YOU think you know. Because you DONíT. And YES, it is nitpicking. You know very WELL what the purpose of that experiment is and STILL you avoid the issue and focus on details where you can CONTINUE to play the expert. You try your best EVERY time to sidetrack the discussion.
    Hi Turion,

    You're wrong. I don't know the purpose of that experiment. I was sure what would happen. Confident enough not to really consider running it. But WTF. I have an extra AA alkaline cell here and an older, yet functional 12V lead-acid. So I ran the test. The 12V battery was in decent shape with a charge and easily ran the scooter motor. The AA cell was good and could manage to run the motor slowly. Photo below.



    Motor is running with 1.34V and .154A. So I discharged both and connected negative to negative with the motor connected to the cell positive and battery positive. Photo below.



    Lead-acid battery at 1.655V, AA at 1.31V and 0.104A in the circuit. I confirmed voltage across motor with another meter at .34V. Motor did not rotate. Even giving it a twist. I could feel a favored rotation direction so the .104A was producing some torque, just not enough. I left it like that for about 10 minutes. Lead-acid voltage slowly crept upwards but never budged the motor shaft.

    Results per my expectations.

    Regards,

    bi
    Attached Files

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  • Turion
    replied
    Head pounding

    NRIC,

    You have to forgive bi. He doesn’t have near the background in electronics you do, and has been living in a box his entire life. Every time we try to take the top off he pulls it back down. He is not here to learn anything. His sole purpose is to detract, derail and discredit. And he is persistent. He has never contributed a single thing, but he is always hanging around, just waiting for any chance he gets to delay the work here.
    Last edited by Turion; 07-20-2019, 11:38 PM.

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  • NROC
    replied
    Bi

    Hey Bi,

    I don't know why you make me laugh so much lol. Nit picking Dave because he said 'is' instead of 'isn't' your so funny hahaha.

    Look man, I'm sure your banned from this thread that's why the bistander thread was created. I'm not sure if your a paid troll to attack Dave or what.

    These systems aren't that complicated, Dave and Matt have given away so much information on this forum to people freely. Just put the pieces together and dont give up if it doesn't work first time, it takes a while to 'feel out' these systems. All these OU devices all have the same things in common:

    Biggish batteries, modulated voltage or current spikes for low impedance, regulators and some kind of isolated load like a motor spinning a generator that you tie back to your batteries. The point of the spikes isn't just impedance its because what happens on your load side effects the ground side but in reverse and you use that to your advantage.

    There is seriously soo much good info on this thread and a few others.

    I know you tried before but have another go, do you still have the parts?

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  • Turion
    replied
    Nitpicking

    Then run the motor on the battery until it WONT run and THEN try the experiment. That’s the whole POINT bi. You have to actually LOOK at things on the bench and quit depending on what YOU think you know. Because you DON’T. And YES, it is nitpicking. You know very WELL what the purpose of that experiment is and STILL you avoid the issue and focus on details where you can CONTINUE to play the expert. You try your best EVERY time to sidetrack the discussion.
    Last edited by Turion; 07-20-2019, 05:57 PM.

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  • bistander
    replied
    Nit pick

    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    bi,
    You nit pick what you KNOW you can discredit, and ignore everything else that makes you look like a fool. Yes, I know a battery is not completely DEAD at 12.2, buy YOU know you should not discharge a battery below 12.2 because it is harmful to the battery. You always want to argue the little details so you can make yourself look like the expert. But it is the concept where you fall on your face.
    If you can't get the details right, why would anyone believe you have the concepts correctly understood?

    BTW, any discharge harms the battery. It is just a matter of degree. Many types of batteries can be used well below 40% SoC and deliver rated life cycles.

    Later in that post, you say "It(the motor) won't run off the dead 12 volt battery." It most certainly would run off a battery at 40% SoC. Is that nit picking?

    bi

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  • Turion
    replied
    Here we go again

    bi,
    You nit pick what you KNOW you can discredit, and ignore everything else that makes you look like a fool. Yes, I know a battery is not completely DEAD at 12.2, buy YOU know you should not discharge a battery below 12.2 because it is harmful to the battery. You always want to argue the little details so you can make yourself look like the expert. But it is the concept where you fall on your face.

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  • bistander
    replied
    Comments

    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    Please realize that I understand a battery is "DEAD" at around 12.2 volts. ...
    Hi Turion,

    For starters, your understanding of "DEAD" is wrong. When the OC voltage at rest measures 12.2V, the SoC is about 40%.



    From: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...tate_of_charge

    As for the rest of your theories, it is the same old misunderstanding you've been preaching without proof. I don't particularly want to argue. Been there done that. I was hoping I could quietly watch while you interacted with dragon and finally demonstrated your machine with proper instruments.

    Regards,

    bi
    Attached Files

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  • Turion
    replied
    Explanations

    In my last few posts I just gave the the explanation for WHY the Matt motor is so critical to making the 3 battery system work. I explained WHY it is SO important to pulse a battery at the correct frequency. And NO COMMENTS from any of the “experts” who have “debunked” the 3 battery system by doing replications that did NOT include the Matt motor (and therefore did NOT work). You are all so willing to build it incorrectly and then give your “expert” assessment of how it can’t possibly do what I say it does. And I told you WHY it wouldn’t work (no Matt motor) but you disregarded my explanation. I hope the information on battery impedance opened some eyes.

    And now I have given a theory for HOW electricity works and WHY the 3 battery system works that flies in the face of known electrical theory, and still no comments????? What’s wrong guys? Cat got your tongue? Don’t want to tell me how little I know and how WRONG I am? I’d love to hear it, because I happen to know a few folks who probably have MORE credentials than anybody here who have bothered to actually TEST this stuff instead of relying on their “expert opinion” who just might have something to say on these topics.

    I would bet you a whole lot of money that they will support my position that batteries must be pulse charged at the CORRECT frequency to get the maximum CORRECT charging effect, and without it you WON’T get the extended run times we have talked about.

    I bet they will also support my position that the load (motor in the 3 battery system) does NOT “consume” the energy or convert all the electricity running into it to mechanical energy. That is a FALSE assumption of modern electrical theory. The motor operates because of movement of current. That’s IT. And there ARE losses in that process because of resistance, etc, but NOWHERE NEAR what we have been taught. It’s time to wake up. What we gave you with the three battery system puts you on the road to free energy. It’s a hard, rocky road filled with potholes, but boy is it worth it.

    And when you can run a Lenz delayed no magnetic drag generator on a system that gives you BACK almost ALL of the energy you put into it, how can you NIT gave a system that is COP>1
    Last edited by Turion; 07-20-2019, 02:30 PM.

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