How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[Excalibur]

Hi Everybody,

After looking for a good while over the net it appears to be hard to find the right condensing temps for the three fuels i asked about.

The closest i could seem to find is,

1. Diesel - 160'c
2. Kero - 100'c
3. Gasoline - 60'c

Can someone confirm this is accurate please?

The figures vary, for example wiki says this:

Kerosene, a thin, clear liquid formed from hydrocarbons, with a density of 0.78–0.81 g/cm3, is obtained from the fractional distillation of petroleum between 150 °C and 275 °C

and this:

Petroleum diesel, also called petrodiesel, or fossil diesel is produced from the fractional distillation of crude oil between 200 °C (392 °F) and 350 °C (662 °F) at atmospheric pressure

I notice the kero and diesel figures overlap. Perhaps it's dependant on things like type of crude and specs of the final product required, winter diesel for example?

[Uncorruptable]

The figures vary, for example wiki says this:

and this:

I notice the kero and diesel figures overlap. Perhaps it's dependant on things like type of crude and specs of the final product required, winter diesel for example?

Yep, i think your spot on, i also found this when browsing the web for guidance, figures were differing from site to site most likley as you pointed out due to it being different grades of crude etc.

Looks like it is a hard one to answer for home fuel makers.

My intention is to have three stages to the column, with a cooling coil located above a resevoir plate with take off at the end of each plate in each stage, so the head of the still design below would be replicated in three stages,



The water feeding into each coil would be running through a cooler that is temperature controlled thereby allowing me to regulate the temperature of the coils very accuratley to achieve the desired result.

Any thoughts?

[Excalibur]

My intention is to have three stages to the column, with a cooling coil located above a resevoir plate with take off at the end of each plate in each stage, so the head of the still design below would be replicated in three stages,

The water feeding into each coil would be running through a cooler that is temperature controlled thereby allowing me to regulate the temperature of the coils very accuratley to achieve the desired result.

Any thoughts?

Yes, the water may not work so well with condensers you want to maintain above 100C as it wants to boil and turn to steam. It would be fine for temps below boiling point though.

[Uncorruptable]

Yes, the water may not work so well with condensers you want to maintain above 100C as it wants to boil and turn to steam. It would be fine for temps below boiling point though.

Yes of course, that slipped by me, what fluid would we be looking to have circulating in the coils so to maintain temp above 100' for the diesel anyway.

The latter two would be achievable with the water i think?

[Beyond Biodiesel]

Hi Everybody,

After looking for a good while over the net it appears to be hard to find the right condensing temps for the three fuels i asked about.

The closest i could seem to find is,

1. Diesel - 160'c
2. Kero - 100'c
3. Gasoline - 60'c

Can someone confirm this is accurate please?

These are cuts in the petroleum stream at temperature ranges, as Excalibur posted. There are also overlaps in the cuts depending upon the demand, not upon the crude source.

Diesel, between 200 °C (392 °F) and 350 °C (662 °F)
Kerosene, between 150 °C (300F) and 275 °C (527F)
Gasoline, between 60'c (140F) and 150 °C (300F)

The way to build a distillation column to trap these cuts is to maintain those temperature ranges in the sections of the column that are associated with the cut. As you can see you would only want a water quench on the gasoline cut. The rest of the condenser sections might need insulation, or even heat tape wrapped around them with a temperature controller maintaining the temperature of the cut. I would maintain the low end of the temperature range, not the high end of it to get your cut.

The other thing to keep in mind is column packing. Column packing is needed to transfer the heat to the fluid stream, and slow the stream down, and give the vapor stream something to condense upon.

At Chevron we used something that looked like thin wall perforated aluminum tubes. I have since seen the same thing sold for the purpose but the tubes are cut lengthwise.

If you google 'home brew still' you will find people selling distillation equipment for making your own moonshine. They sell column packing made of copper wool. This makes an excellent column packing. I purchased 15 copper chore boys from the local hardware store to fill my 200 °C (392 °F) cut trap. It worked great

You can also use a twisted aluminum strip as column packing

I have also used rolled aluminum bug screening stuffed inside one of my condenser columns. It worked fine as well, but I prefer copper wool packing.

[Uncorruptable]

These are cuts in the petroleum stream at temperature ranges, as Excalibur posted. There are also overlaps in the cuts depending upon the demand, not upon the crude source.

Diesel, between 200 °C (392 °F) and 350 °C (662 °F)
Kerosene, between 150 °C (300F) and 275 °C (527F)
Gasoline, between 60'c (140F) and 150 °C (300F)

The way to build a distillation column to trap these cuts is to maintain those temperature ranges in the sections of the column that are associated with the cut. As you can see you would only want a water quench on the gasoline cut. The rest of the condenser sections might need insulation, or even heat tape wrapped around them with a temperature controller maintaining the temperature of the cut. I would maintain the low end of the temperature range, not the high end of it to get your cut.

The other thing to keep in mind is column packing. Column packing is needed to transfer the heat to the fluid stream, and slow the stream down, and give the vapor stream something to condense upon.

At Chevron we used something that looked like thin wall perforated aluminum tubes. I have since seen the same thing sold for the purpose but the tubes are cut lengthwise.

If you google 'home brew still' you will find people selling distillation equipment for making your own moonshine. They sell column packing made of copper wool. This makes an excellent column packing. I purchased 15 copper chore boys from the local hardware store to fill my 200 °C (392 °F) cut trap. It worked great

I have also used rolled aluminum bug screening stuffed inside one of my condenser columns. It worked fine as well, but I prefer copper wool packing.

Thanks for the exact temps chief, great information to have now for this purpose.

I already have a source for the copper scrubbing wool very cheap, i will pack out the column with this at the low end for the diesel as you pointed out, on the kero section, i intended to have the water being rapidlly circulated by water pump into a cooler that can chill the water right down, this may be acheivable if we limit the temp in the first stage to 200' & are then brining the second stage down to 150', what do you think?

Then water for the last stage?

[Marso Green]

Packing in the distillation column

I'm very glad to see this discussion go beyond pyrolysis and enter critical stages of education on aspects of successful distillation.

Regarding the packing in the distillation column, wouldn't one factor be clean-up from carbon deposits? I would imagine that it depends on the feedstock, like for example tires would probably produce a lot of gooey deposits on the packing, while PP would not. Is that a true statement? And in the case of gooey deposits, would a tray-only design be more adequate?

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Marso Green

[Uncorruptable]

I'm very glad to see this discussion go beyond pyrolysis and enter critical stages of education on aspects of successful distillation.

Regarding the packing in the distillation column, wouldn't one factor be clean-up from carbon deposits? I would imagine that it depends on the feedstock, like for example tires would probably produce a lot of gooey deposits on the packing, while PP would not. Is that a true statement? And in the case of gooey deposits, would a tray-only design be more adequate?

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Marso Green

What does 'tray only design' mean please.

Also, i intend to use PP for the purpose of keeping the packking clean, makes life easier.

[gerardo]

thanks a lot for ur answers to my questions.
now I have a problem that people here have not talked about and is the neighbors, bare in mind where you set the equipment, people is not used to those types of smells in the night are very unpleasant, now I will move all my set up to where no houses are near only me and my loved making money machines.
regards from mexico.

[CRMoore]

is biodiesel an acid or a base
and also is diesel an acid or a base

Neither; Biodiesel is a blend of esters, Petrol diesel includes CH ratios from C10H20-C15H28 of various sorts.

[Marso Green]

What does 'tray only design' mean please.

Also, i intend to use PP for the purpose of keeping the packking clean, makes life easier.

Tray only means only a perforated plate with a drain to the outside, and without packing material. A tower can have many trays. The devil is in the details. Determining the number of trays, the spacing between them, etc is no small task.

[Uncorruptable]

I was considering the difficulties in being able to achieve the desired temps in 'cooling coils' (Condensing coils really) in the triple condenser column we discussed above from the persepective of us using fluids as way of regulating the temperature in the coils, we could most likeley acheive the desired temps in each coil by forcing heated air through the coils instead of liquid, this would allow us to exceed 100'c in the coils to be able to condense the diesel at 200'c, kero at 150'c & use water for the gasoline.

What do you guys think?

[Beyond Biodiesel]

Thanks for the exact temps chief, great information to have now for this purpose.

You are welcome folks. I am glad to help, but I think cracking and fractionating hydrocarbons is way to dangerous and complicated to do in your backyard or garage, or I would have done it years ago. This is why I promote gasoline blending with waste oils. It is just too easy to make diesel fuel out of a wide range of recycled oils and solvent.

I already have a source for the copper scrubbing wool very cheap, i will pack out the column with this at the low end for the diesel as you pointed out, on the kero section, i intended to have the water being rapidlly circulated by water pump into a cooler that can chill the water right down, this may be acheivable if we limit the temp in the first stage to 200' & are then brining the second stage down to 150', what do you think?

Then water for the last stage?

I have all of my sections packed with some kind of column packing, even the child section. Column packing just makes distillation much more efficient, because it slows down the vapor stream, efficiently transfers the heat from the vapor stream to the walls of the column, and gives the vapor something to wet upon during condensation.

I'm very glad to see this discussion go beyond pyrolysis and enter critical stages of education on aspects of successful distillation.

Regarding the packing in the distillation column, wouldn't one factor be clean-up from carbon deposits? I would imagine that it depends on the feedstock, like for example tires would probably produce a lot of gooey deposits on the packing, while PP would not. Is that a true statement? And in the case of gooey deposits, would a tray-only design be more adequate?

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Marso Green

The carbon deposit are left behind in the retort, so there is no "cleanup" in the fractionation column. In fact fractionation column tend to be remarkably clean.

However, the retort needs to be cleanup, and the easy way to do that is bleed in air, or O2 after all of the volatiles are removed, then the O2 will burn off the carbon in your retort. But, if you do not VERY carefully monitor the purge cycle, then you could burn the whole thing up spectacularly. Your neighbors will talk about it for the rest of their days.

Also, i intend to use PP for the purpose of keeping the packking clean, makes life easier.

The packing should be as clean as the rest of the column, but if you have any heavy fractions (above 350 °C (662 °F)), then use a simple trap, and do not pack it.

I was considering the difficulties in being able to achieve the desired temps in 'cooling coils' (Condensing coils really) in the triple condenser column we discussed above from the persepective of us using fluids as way of regulating the temperature in the coils, we could most likeley acheive the desired temps in each coil by forcing heated air through the coils instead of liquid, this would allow us to exceed 100'c in the coils to be able to condense the diesel at 200'c, kero at 150'c & use water for the gasoline.

What do you guys think?

Review your laws of Thermodynamics. Conduction is the most efficient way to transfer heat, this is why liquids are better thermal fluids than gasses.

It is also easier to control a heat tape wrapped around a column (which is in direct thermal contact with the column), than control the heat of forced air through a pipe, which is in contact with the column.

thanks a lot for ur answers to my questions.
now I have a problem that people here have not talked about and is the neighbors, bare in mind where you set the equipment, people is not used to those types of smells in the night are very unpleasant, now I will move all my set up to where no houses are near only me and my loved making money machines.
regards from mexico.

While I agree that the equipment needs to be sited in a safe place, away from neighbors; nonetheless, if your cracking and distillation apparatus is properly designed and operated, then there should be no emissions at all from it, but CO2. If you have smoke of smells coming from the end pipe, then you need to chill it, or do a better job of chilling the end section. Chilling here means 0c (32f).

You will still have butane, propane, and methane emissions. The only way to trap them with a chiller is with dry ice in acetone. This might be a bit pricey for most, so building a simple gas jar to contain the flammable gasses would work. You could use those gasses to fire up your cracking unit, or cook your tortillas on.

[Uncorruptable]

You are welcome folks. I am glad to help, but I think cracking and fractionating hydrocarbons is way to dangerous and complicated to do in your backyard or garage, or I would have done it years ago. This is why I promote gasoline blending with waste oils. It is just too easy to make diesel fuel out of a wide range of recycled oils and solvent.

It is far simpler alright and less hazardous, but the quantities of oils, methanol, wash waters, glycerin waste etc etc etc makes the all in one contained plastic ditiller seem more attractive, if proper care and attention is sought, researched & nothing done without verifiaction or asking someone with experience first then we should be alright.

Most task gone into half arsed can be very danngerous if you dont heed the correct precautions, like cutting the grass!

I have all of my sections packed with some kind of column packing, even the child section. Column packing just makes distillation much more efficient, because it slows down the vapor stream, efficiently transfers the heat from the vapor stream to the walls of the column, and gives the vapor something to wet upon during condensation..

Sorry, i intend to pack each section, what i am not sure on is should there be seperate catalyst in each section also?

The packing should be as clean as the rest of the column, but if you have any heavy fractions (above 350 °C (662 °F)), then use a simple trap, and do not pack it.

Review your laws of Thermodynamics. Conduction is the most efficient way to transfer heat, this is why liquids are better thermal fluids than gasses.

It is also easier to control a heat tape wrapped around a column (which is in direct thermal contact with the column), than control the heat of forced air through a pipe, which is in contact with the column..

point taken, i was simply trying to think of a way to achieve the desired temp exactly on the internal coils, i will consider it more.

[thissideup]

I was considering the difficulties in being able to achieve the desired temps in 'cooling coils' (Condensing coils really) in the triple condenser column we discussed above from the persepective of us using fluids as way of regulating the temperature in the coils, we could most likeley acheive the desired temps in each coil by forcing heated air through the coils instead of liquid, this would allow us to exceed 100'c in the coils to be able to condense the diesel at 200'c, kero at 150'c & use water for the gasoline.

What do you guys think?

why is everyone trying to cool the gasses in condensors prior to entering the collection tanks, I intend to plumb the gas feed directly to the bottom of the collection tanks, then plumb the condensed fluid to a thermostatically controlled hydraulic cooler. I will have to always start the process with fluid in the tanks, but it will be much easier and more efficient to controll the temperature of the fluid that the gas will bubble through than to controll the temp of the gases directly. ultimately this is how a fractionating column works. they allow the gasses to bubble through fluid that is of the desired temperature, the desired fraction will then condense and remain with the fluid in that fraction. Is there any flaw in my thinking?

On an other matter, this unit shown will be both batch and continous feed, I Intend to run it while I work in the welding shop during the day. It will start out with a batch of plastic, that I intend to melt into wmo in the beginning, ( 20 L plastic pails that the oil comes in ) left over solvent and paint, and a bit of rubber from our scrap tires, then I intend to have an oil feed preheated by a coil in the exhast pipe, that will drip wmo and crude oil into the retort so that It may operate uninterupted for 8 to 10 hrs at a time. But I have a small problem, I have no Idea how to monitor the ammount of fluid in the retort after it is sealed up, I considered setting the unit up on a scale so that I may read the weight and adjust feed rate accordingly, anybody have any other suggestions?