Lockridge Device - Peter Lindemann

[Mark]

Thanks for the input Matt.

Let me give you my thoughts on rewiring the motor and I'll be greatful for any guidance you and Peter can provide.

My Idea is to wind a coil around 3 sections of the rotor then to cross over to the other side and continue winding in the same direction around 3 sections directly across the the other side which should be a little less then the width of a magnet, basically 1 big coil with a space in the middle. This will create a north field on one end and a south field on the other. So I will be getting a push from both sides at the same time. And by looking at the picture it looks like a section of the cummutator will line up just after TDC of the magnet, so that looks good. I'll set it to fire when the rotor passes the 2nd same polarity magnet and if it fires a little bit late I'll also get a pull into the opposing field magnet.

That just brough up another question. If your firing a coil and making a north field when it colapses does it create the opposite field, and if it does should I also take that into consideration?

I'm not sure how many sections will work best for winding, hopefully my logic holds true. I would like to keep from removing 2 of the magnets from out of the case if possible.

LOL, I can see right now I'm going to end up tearing this thing apart about a dozen times to find the best set up.

Mark

[Turion]

Alternative motor?

Here's a motor I found several months ago and already purchased as the drive motor for the Watson device I was building if I couldn't get Matt's simple motor to work, or a Bedini motor. I had intended to modify it, and now it looks like that is EXACTLY what I am going to do,
12 volt
1750 RPM
2 pole
Even number of sections, so not to hard to figure out how to wire it.
$189
Extra brushes $31 Bison part number P158-200-2001
Brush Caps $13 (not available from Bison---had to order them from Grainger, but this is the Bison part number to do that) 157-200-0100

Not cheap. I liked the square design of the two end caps which makes it easy to mount the motor tight against a surface.

[Matthew Jones]

Mark
2 magnets put together will not give you the same effect as 1 magnet.
Peter might confirm this but if the motor is a Pusher you section of commutator will have to be 50% past the center of the magnet before you fire it. But the section of commutator needs to be the same width as the magnet or you'll get a magnetic drag and that will reduce your torque.

And about the wiring on the rotor.... I think these motors both push and pull and the same time. One section coming in to the magnet pulls in and one leaving pushes away. So at any given time you have you have 8 magnetic poles on the rotor. Its just how they route the power through the coil that makes the difference.
Unwinding the motor will reveal that, if you take you time and trace all the wires.

I may see what I can do about trying one out, but I have too much work right now coming across my desk as estimates for work, which I am also getting. And thats unusual at this time of year but I cannot turn my nose up at it. Kitchens and Trim are just Good Clean Easy Money. No choice in other words.

Matt

[Mark]

Hey Matt you posted while I was typing. That sucks your not planning on a build at this time! We could also extend the power on time by connecting 2 sections of the commutator together so I dont see a problem there.

Mark

[Mark]

Peter or Matt

If the magnets are mounted NNSS wont they act like a 2 pole? Wont the 2 norths together just make up 1 large north? If we wound the coil around lets say 6 sections and fired it when its centered over the 2 north magnets that wouldn't work?

@n84dafun
I looked at Matts blown up coil pictures and it looks like one coil end is connected to a commutator and the other end of the coil is connected to the commutator right next to it. Which actually is baffling to me, maybe I'm wrong.

My feelings are the bigger the motor the better as far as having enough room to get 4 brushes mounted along with using decent size wire. But as you get bigger there are going to be more poles inside, they only make curved magnets so big. The motor you pictured Peter most likely has 6,8 or even 10 poles. Has anyone seen a 4" diameter or lager motor with only 2 magnets in it? Most of the motors I've seen inside of are 2 pole but they were automotive blower motors and are pretty small.

I hope your going to join me in this build Matt and anyone else who has or gets the same motor. If the 2 norths dont join into 1 big one we can always just fire the coil over just 1 of the magnets or just remove one of each poled magnets.

I'd like to here your opinions Peter and Matt.

Mark

[Matthew Jones]

Matt, thanks for the pics. I added some comments to your pics for a possible way to modify the motor for self-running. I also bought the motor from Allelectronics, which is little different from yours. Hopefully, it has the same number of poles inside.
-Brian
ScooterMotorSelfRunner2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

@Mark
4 bolts 4 poles. 2 bolts 2 poles. I have an 18 volt out in the shop and it has 2 poles and 2 bolts. Every 24 volt motor I have out there has 4 bolts and 4 poles.

Also the mods seem alright but your kinda missing my point. Just knock out the side magnets move 2 brush's into position for discharge by drilling a couple of holes in the backplate, remove and rewind 2 poles of wire and you've got it. No extra material needed. You can even reuse the wire if it will come apart easy enough, or use a bigger wire like 18. Currently they have 22 on them, best I can tell.

@Peter and all
Now the only difference between the MOD for this motor and a standard 2 pole is the firing time will be lower. So you'll have a little more Off time. But that will just slow down the motor some. And that should help so you can see whats going on inside the thing. But it may not be what you want in the end.

Peter I didn't mean to make you out as dictator of sorts, that wasn't my intention. I just figure you have the plan layed out, and I don't, so I might be missing something.
My point was just if your gonna dismantle a perfectly well running motor you might as well do a $25 dollar one that might be found in the dump at the scrap, as opposed to one that is higher in cost. No one is going to put them back together if the their attempt does not work well. LOL. And that might lead to disgruntle attitudes that we have all seen before.

Like I said there is no difference between this motors windings and any other you just have more poles.
Knock out 2 poles and re wire the thing.

I have no time or I would get it running. But in case a bit a time shows up.

What kind of voltage do we want to run through it? I haven't read this part yet.

Good luck all
Matt

[n84dafun]

Mods to Matt's Motor

Matt, thanks for the pics. I added some comments to your pics for a possible way to modify the motor for self-running. I also bought the motor from Allelectronics, which is little different from yours. Hopefully, it has the same number of poles inside.

-Brian

ScooterMotorSelfRunner2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[FRC]

2 poles

After checking the site that Matt first mentioned for the motors, I believe the
motor in the E100 razor on sale here is a two pole motor. It must be the Unite
model since the one here has the sprocket chain drive. Peter mentioned that
it is better to use a 2 pole 2 brush setup to begin with. However, I guess this
one would have the smaller brushes since only being rated at 100 watts. Still
might be a good one to learn with. On the video, a 1965 283 starter was mentioned. I did have a vehicle with a 1960's 283 in it about five years ago. But I had to partially rebuild a starter in a 1969 six cyl van so have some experience with that one. I was hoping to work with a VW generator, like the
original Lockridge device was, had to repair one of those in Washington state, of all places. Well I hope you don't mind all my rambling, good luck to everybody with their builds.

FRC

[Peter Lindemann]

Not Here to Dictate

You can run some power through them. I have one on a skate board with back pack of batteries that runs 72 volt through a 680 watt version of the motor. Same size brush's. Bigger magnets bigger wire..

Peter is the one who should dictate what a GOOD motor is. I just thought it might be worth mentioning. Thought it might be a nice cheap alternative.

Oh well
Matt

Matt,

My idea is to learn (teach) the principles of this modification so any of us can pick up any motor and modify it successfully. So, I am not trying to dictate what you do. My recommendations were for a motor with a two pole stator, with two brushes to start with, so we could learn the method in its simplest configuration. But for people who don't have a motor like this, the one I link to at Surplus Center is expensive, where the ones you are recommending are much cheaper. But because it has 4 poles and 4 brushes, the modification is more challenging. That, and the N-N-S-S configuration of stator magnets leaves me a little confused as to how to rewind the rotor, and I don't have one of the motors to study to figure it out.

I'm sure there is a way, but it is not immediately self-evident to me at this time. I am fine with you and Mark trying to figure it out.

Peter

[Turion]

Which Motor?

Peter,
Is there a motor that you feel best meets the requirements for this project. I think if we can decide on THAT, then many of us would get that specific motor so that we are all working on the SAME project. It would give us that common ground to begin with so that we are all on the same page. Then people who do not WANT to do that can choose to use whatever motor they want, but at least there would be a number of us working with the EXACT same motor on the EXACT same design so that we can try to produce a number of EXACT replications.

[Mark]

Peter,

I dont know what other modifications you are planing and only want to wind this rotor one time. So what do you recommend as the way to wind the rotor?

Should I just wrap around the 4 sections on each side? Or go around 2 then 4 and across to the other side to 4 sections then to the inside 2. Or go 2 then 4 then 6 and acrross to the other side? What do you suggest?

Mark

[Matthew Jones]

You can run some power through them. I have one on a skate board with back pack of batteries that runs 72 volt through a 680 watt version of the motor. Same size brush's. Bigger magnets bigger wire..

Peter is the one who should dictate what a GOOD motor is. I just thought it might be worth mentioning. Thought it might be a nice cheap alternative.

Oh well
Matt

[Peter Lindemann]

You Are Right

Thanks Matt,

Mine should be the same, but I did notice that the one I ordered has a rated speed of 3000 rpm instead of the 2750 rpm's yours shows. From the pictures it looks like each coil covers 4 core sections or 1/4 of the rotor. If I understand correctly the magnets are placed NNSS or one half is south and the other half is north.

Peter recommended winding 1 coil right down the middle of the rotor but it doesn't look like there is very much clearence between the rotor cores and the commutator. I'm wondering if it may be better to wind one continous coil but with half of it around 4 core sections on one side and the other half of the coil around 4 sections directly across from it. Or if 2, 3, 5 or 6 would be better.

Your input Peter and anyone elses woudl be helpful. I also have 3 different kinds of wire on hand. 18awg, 20awg, and 34awg (the 34 is flat wire) which would be best?

Again thanks for talking the time Matt to tear down and take pics

Mark

Mark,

You are right. This magnetic stator arrangement would require a different rotor winding set-up than the simple one I recommended. As for what wire to use, since the current motor is rated for 24 volt operation, you may want to wind it with a thicker wire than it currently has. My main concern with this motor is how small the brushes are. They are clearly not meant for large currents.

The purpose of this first experiment is to prove out the basic modification and its benefits. This motor, as a frame to build from, adds a fair number of complications.

Peter

[Mark]

Thanks Matt,

Mine should be the same, but I did notice that the one I ordered has a rated speed of 3000 rpm instead of the 2750 rpm's yours shows. From the pictures it looks like each coil covers 4 core sections or 1/4 of the rotor. If I understand correctly the magnets are placed NNSS or one half is south and the other half is north.

Peter recommended winding 1 coil right down the middle of the rotor but it doesn't look like there is very much clearence between the rotor cores and the commutator. I'm wondering if it may be better to wind one continous coil but with half of it around 4 core sections on one side and the other half of the coil around 4 sections directly across from it. Or if 2, 3, 5 or 6 would be better.

Your input Peter and anyone elses woudl be helpful. I also have 3 different kinds of wire on hand. 18awg, 20awg, and 34awg (the 34 is flat wire) which would be best?

Again thanks for talking the time Matt to tear down and take pics

Mark

[Matthew Jones]

Razor Scooter Pictures

Hey
I took a 24v 15 amp motor apart and took pictures for ya'll.
it has 4 magnets, 16 wired poles, and 2 sets of brush's.
I left the images large.
Razor Motor, Matthew Jones

Added this; The back plate that holds the brush's is removable and should be pretty easy to modify new brush placement. And as your looking at the magnets the Poles are facing in with North on top and left, South on bottom and right.

Have fun
Matt