Lockridge Device - Peter Lindemann

[Peter Lindemann]

Interesting....

Matt, thanks for the pics. I added some comments to your pics for a possible way to modify the motor for self-running. I also bought the motor from Allelectronics, which is little different from yours. Hopefully, it has the same number of poles inside.

-Brian

ScooterMotorSelfRunner2 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Brian,

Sorry I didn't comment on this earlier. If the stator magnets are really N-S-N-S, and not N-N-S-S as Matt said, then this really could be an excellent motor to work with. The one drawback is that it is designed to operate at 24 volts. The fact that it has 16 slots would let you wire it in a corresponding manner to Turion's motor, as I suggested in Post #230, above. I'm not sure it would work very well simply by snipping the connections as you have proposed in the linked image. One issue with this is that you are not going to have much "cool off time" for these windings if you run them at higher voltages, as I am recommending, to get ahead of the Back EMF. The other issue is that all of your turns produce a circular connection around the rotor, so it can partially discharge within itself, instead of discharging out the recovery brushes.

There are a lot of issues to balance off in these things to give you a motor with good torque, at good speed, with good recovery, that won't MELT!

Peter

[kcarring]

hey guys.. I just bought that exact motor LOL no kidding, it's got to be.. it's identical. I bought it at princess auto in canada (surplus).

If you want, I'll take it apart and examine it or take pictures or whatever u wish. I'll back read this thread a bit so I understand what the interest was, but.. the plan was to take it apart anyway... just so you know. After having built my first SSG, I picked it up in the store and thought hmm... $10... why not... First thing I noticed, was, given that it was sitting there not wired, the shaft was relatively easy to turn, and the deck was very flat, and the motor shaft has a threaded end. I also bought it because the end cap has two nutted (looks to be 5/16") bolts that hold it together and it -appeared- to easily come apart.

*added:
There are ten slots in the commutator.
There are ten slots in the armature assembly, 5 (pairs) of arms (10 points)

I made a video of it, it's uploading right now.

Kyle

[Mark]

Peter

I may run the motor with the winding right in the middle if possible but I think there may be a clearence issue with where the commutator is and If I remove 2 of the magnets I dont know how much power it will make. I'll try it the way I wrote first and see what happens before I remove any magnets.

[Peter Lindemann]

Good Possibility

Here's an even cheaper motor that appears to be a 2 pole (only has 2 bolts) but doesn't give a lot on info on:
12 VDC MOTOR | AllElectronics.com

Mark,

I was looking at this motor last night. It may work IF it has an even number of slots in the rotor and commutator. The only thing to do is buy one and open it up. If it has an even number of slots, then buy another one. That way you will have two sets of brushes to work with and two rotors, as well.

It would also identify an inexpensive motor for others to work with.

Good find (hopefully).

Peter

[Mark]

Mark
Your gonna need to wind the motor different than you described above.

If you start on the top pole. Solder a connection to the commutator then wind clockwise, for a number of turns. When you get to the end of the top one go to exact opposite point on the rotor. Start on the commutator side but wind the coils counter clock wise.

The top will make a north field the bottom will make a south. And when the rotor flips over 180 out it will do just the opposite. Your bottom coil which is now on top will produce a North and vice versa

If you cannot see what I am saying draw it on paper then flip the paper over. Imagine which section of commutator is hook to which pole of the battery.

Cheers
Matt

Actually Matt I think you worded it incorrectly. If I start on the top pole. Solder a connection to the commutator then wind clockwise for a number of turns. When you get to the end of the top and cross over the rotor shaft and flip the rotor over and go to the exact opposite point on the rotor. Then starting near the shaft I need to wind counter clockwise until I get up to the commutator and solder the end to it. If you hold the rotor in one position and dont flip it all the winds continue in a clockwise direction. Its basically one big coil and we're shoving the rotor shaft right threw the middle of it.

Take a bedini coil north is top, bottom is south. Flip it over and now south is top and bottom is north but the battery polarity is also switched so we're back to north on top and south on bottom. Please tell me I'm right here before I just throw in the towel.

Mark

[Peter Lindemann]

16 Slots is IDEAL

Peter,
The rotor and commutator on that motor both have 16 sections, so nice even number. And those brushes are BIG. I ordered a replacement set and the caps that hold them. When they come in I will start my modifications. I have been studying the windings. Want to get it all worked out in my mind how to take it apart, then put it down on paper, check it, and then begin tearing it apart. Only want to do this once, and don't want to rewind if I don't have to. That's just a pain.

Turion,

Very good. 16 slots allows you to double up on the power of the motor by putting TWO WINDINGS on the rotor. The first winding will go around the rotor from slot #1 to slot #9, and the second winding will go around the rotor from slot #5 to slot #13. This will allow the motor to pulse 4 times per revolution, with 4 recovery pulses per revolution. The big issue for your case structure is how to mount the second set of brushes. Since it is already designed for 12 volt operation, you should be able to rewind with the same diameter wire.

Matt,

The idea is to run any of these motors with a voltage that is at least 3 times higher than its rating, so that at one half of the original "top" speed, the applied voltage is 6 times higher than the reverse generated Back EMF.

Peter

[Turion]

Peter,
The rotor and commutator on that motor both have 16 sections, so nice even number. And those brushes are BIG. I ordered a replacement set and the caps that hold them. When they come in I will start my modifications. I have been studying the windings. Want to get it all worked out in my mind how to take it apart, then put it down on paper, check it, and then begin tearing it apart. Only want to do this once, and don't want to rewind if I don't have to. That's just a pain.

[Matthew Jones]

Mark
Your gonna need to wind the motor different than you described above.

If you start on the top pole. Solder a connection to the commutator then wind clockwise, for a number of turns. When you get to the end of the top one go to exact opposite point on the rotor. Start on the commutator side but wind the coils counter clock wise.

The top will make a north field the bottom will make a south. And when the rotor flips over 180 out it will do just the opposite. Your bottom coil which is now on top will produce a North and vice versa

If you cannot see what I am saying draw it on paper then flip the paper over. Imagine which section of commutator is hook to which pole of the battery.

Cheers
Matt

[mbrownn]

Peter or Matt

@n84dafun
I looked at Matts blown up coil pictures and it looks like one coil end is connected to a commutator and the other end of the coil is connected to the commutator right next to it. Which actually is baffling to me, maybe I'm wrong.

My feelings are the bigger the motor the better as far as having enough room to get 4 brushes mounted along with using decent size wire. But as you get bigger there are going to be more poles inside, they only make curved magnets so big. The motor you pictured Peter most likely has 6,8 or even 10 poles. Has anyone seen a 4" diameter or lager motor with only 2 magnets in it? Most of the motors I've seen inside of are 2 pole but they were automotive blower motors and are pretty small.

I hope your going to join me in this build Matt and anyone else who has or gets the same motor. If the 2 norths dont join into 1 big one we can always just fire the coil over just 1 of the magnets or just remove one of each poled magnets.

I'd like to here your opinions Peter and Matt.

Mark

I am sure that how the rotor is wound is very important, there are three ways that I know of to do it. The picture shows a winding similar to a 220v universal motor which has all the poles energised at the same time, half north and half south. I don’t think this would be the Ideal rotor. I think peter would be referring to having just one set of poles energised at a time.

You may be familiar with the terms star and delta, this rotor looks like it is a form similar to a delta winding. ie all the coils are wired in series round the outside. Star would be when all the coils are wired from the commutator to either a slip ring or the central shaft. The third type is where all the coils are wound between opposite segments of the commutator and not to each other.

I know of ways to recover energy from the first two types but it would be far easier to do with the last type using four brushes.

To recover some energy from a delta type winding you would have two brushes diametrically opposite to each other supplying the power. The second two brushes would be on adjacent segments, I forget weather it is next to the positive or negative brush. This would recover energy from all but one segment. The remaining segment would cause a rotating current in the rotor but I’m not sure whether this could be made to assist us or work against us.

To recover energy from the star winding takes three brushes, the slip ring brush, positive. The commutator brush, negative; and a third narrow brush next to the negative, half a segment behind. This brush I would recommend using a brass arm with a very small contact area positioned so that as the carbon brush leaves the segment of the commutator the brass brush is in the middle of that segment.

I haven’t seen the Electric motor secrets part 2 yet but I believe peter is talking about the third type of rotor winding.

The magnets in the motor will cause all of the coils of the rotor in the picture to act as a generator as it rotates slowing the motor by generating a counter EMF.

I don’t think it would be a good motor to use, correct me if I am wrong.

[Matthew Jones]

@Peter,How much voltage is needed to go through the motor?

Matt

[Mark]

Dang Peter that motor must have some monster size magnets in it!!

[Mark]

Here's an even cheaper motor that appears to be a 2 pole (only has 2 bolts) but doesn't give a lot on info on:
12 VDC MOTOR | AllElectronics.com

[Peter Lindemann]

Perfect

Here's a motor I found several months ago and already purchased as the drive motor for the Watson device I was building if I couldn't get Matt's simple motor to work, or a Bedini motor. I had intended to modify it, and now it looks like that is EXACTLY what I am going to do,
12 volt
1750 RPM
2 pole
Even number of sections, so not to hard to figure out how to wire it.
$189
Extra brushes $31 Bison part number P158-200-2001
Brush Caps $13 (not available from Bison---had to order them from Grainger, but this is the Bison part number to do that) 157-200-0100

Not cheap. I liked the square design of the two end caps which makes it easy to mount the motor tight against a surface.

Turion,

This motor is EXCELLENT. The big, monster commutator section is perfect for large current operation. How many sections does the rotor and commutator have?

Peter

[Matthew Jones]

IF you draining those coils the very second they turn off, you will not have any field present. Just some higher voltage from the step up.

Matt

[Peter Lindemann]

2 Pole

Mark,

The motor I linked to is a 2 brush, 2 pole motor. The only thing I don't know about it is whether it has an even or odd number of rotor slots. I have PM field motors in my locker that are up to 2 1/2 HP that are 2 brush, 2 pole set-ups that I got from Surplus Center about 10 years ago. They were a lot cheaper then!!

Maybe the thing to do with the motor you have is to abandon two of the poles, like you suggested, and move the second set of brushes into the recovery position. Actually removing the two extra stator magnets would be best (if possible), leaving one North Pole opposite one South Pole in the stator.

Then, you could completely remove all windings from the rotor and rewind two opposite slots with #18, like Matt suggested.

If these modifications are possible, then this motor may become the ideal platform for these tests that anyone could afford to try.

What do you guys think of that?

Peter