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Lead/Acid to Alcaline/Lead battery conversion - useful?

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  • #16
    Hmm... well i think a ph tester strip could solve that pretty easily. It defiantly reacts with baking soda, which would suggest its acidic or lower ph than 7. Are you sure that the formula you have is the same for the alum you buy in the grocery store? It appears to me that there may be a couple different products going under the name alum.

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    • #17
      To mess around further with the Term Alum.

      It is sodium aluminum silicate, chemically speaking. Also goes by sodium aluminosilicate, aluminium sodium silicate; sodium silicoaluminate; silicic acid, etc. For accuracy use the proper catalog numbers. CAS # 1344-00-9, GB 12493-90(02.002); INS 554; GRAS (GRAS means Generally Recognized As Safe) FDA 182.2727, (1994) If you want more complete chemical info, everything possible to know about this substance, you can download it here:
      I found for Alum that at Wikipedia,
      and i like the Crystals from it :P.

      The Term silicate is often used at chemistry for this Grain form,
      how the Powder appears, or how it is, but not, that it is another substance.

      i did buy now in my local Drugstore Potassium alum and Natron.
      From the Link above he mention, that the Numbes for this alum is E-554, what i got is E-552.
      I think it do pretty match, and what i read at the Descriptions,
      both can be used for a styptic shaving pencil.

      I got an old Lead Acid, what dont take really Charge right now,
      its resting at 2,8V i got it with 12V, but it did not take any charge again,
      it was standing a long time around.


      As first, i decharge it right now with a 10W Bulb, drain down the Fluid in there.
      Then i want to flush it with destilled Water and Natron, to clean the plates.

      Destilled Water, because when you use normal Water, the Minerals in it
      will do a hard association with the Lead, and jam the Lead.
      I even dont know, if there is a Way, to fix that, when you once filled normal Water into a Batterie,
      and the Lead did do such a connection with the Minerals,
      but mainly, it just dont take charge anymore.

      Then further, i drain it again, and refill it with the Mix with my E-552 and destilled Water, i think the Ratio was 4 Oz to 40OZ, so a Ratio from 1:10?
      Or 4to64, what would be a Ratio of 1:16.
      I guess, i will try the higher concentration, and will see, what will happen.
      I tell later, what did happen.
      Theorizer are like High Voltage. A lot hot Air with no Power behind but they are the dead of applied Work and Ideas.

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      • #18
        Wanted to get some scope shots up of the charging and how the battery has been improving. I wish i had taken a picture when i first started charging it, it was real bad. Anyway, im sure some of you have seen similar shots if you have charged junk battery's with your bedinis. Going down the pictures you will see the progression of the battery getting better and accepting the charge.



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        • #19
          Hi
          After filling the Batterie with 1Ltr/2 egg spoon backing Soda, (few hours between) i did flush it 2 Times with dist Water.
          I did put in the Potassium alum in, and it did take a charge again.
          Before it did stuck at 4V/0,3Ah after a first try i could charge it to 7V 1,5Ah.
          But the Batterie seems damaged, there did fall some lead out, as i did clean it,
          so its maybe not the best anymore.
          At all, i will say it worked, that it did take more charge as before.
          I recharge it few times more, to see, if it can go better, even with the damaged Cells.

          Someone else mentioned, with potassium the Batteries would faster self-discharge, they only use sodium.
          But someone from my Drugstore said, its actually at the same periodic system of elements, just some higher, it shouldnt be a big different.
          Something else, potassium has a higher potential (-2,9V),
          so not sure, wich one is better.
          But they seems have anyway only potassiumalum to sell,
          i guess, i stay by it for now.

          _Edit_
          New Status after discharging with a 10W Bulb and recharging 7,3V 1,92Ah
          Last edited by Joit; 11-02-2009, 08:28 PM.
          Theorizer are like High Voltage. A lot hot Air with no Power behind but they are the dead of applied Work and Ideas.

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          • #20
            Joit,
            What are you charging with?

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            • #21
              12V/61Ah Lead Acid with my lately made Coil on a 555Timer, pulsed even.
              Theorizer are like High Voltage. A lot hot Air with no Power behind but they are the dead of applied Work and Ideas.

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              • #22
                Joit,
                You may consider charging it with straight dc for just a little while. When i did this it greatly improved my pulse charging afterward. You may not need it, but it worked good for me

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                • #23
                  Ok thanks Cody,
                  i did read something similar at the Page, and did do that also a bit,
                  but it didnt do much different. Seems the Batterie got a Problem, not me.
                  But i will try it again.
                  Theorizer are like High Voltage. A lot hot Air with no Power behind but they are the dead of applied Work and Ideas.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    RE: Alum...

                    Originally posted by Joit View Post
                    Ok thanks Cody,
                    i did read something similar at the Page, and did do that also a bit,
                    but it didnt do much different. Seems the Batterie got a Problem, not me.
                    But i will try it again.
                    Not all Alum is created equal...

                    There are several types of alum out there, the one that John bedini uses works, the American spice company type works, but I have tried other alum from other sources with very poor results.

                    I am finding rinsing with baking soda is not needed. As well, it is very good to rinse the batteries but use rain water to do so, I even turn them upside down to get even more gunk out.

                    Also realize... Alum batteries have a different discharge curve. They just are not your typical battery.
                    See my experiments here...
                    http://www.youtube.com/marthale7

                    You do not have to prove something for it to be true. However, you do have to prove something for others to believe it true.

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                    • #25
                      I have experimented with a converted golf cart battery Trojan T-1275.

                      The battery did regain most of its 120ahr capacity but with several severe issues

                      1. Low Charge Efficiency
                      2. Rapid Self discharge
                      3. Lower voltage its between 10.5-11.8v finished

                      The way the battery behaves it would work fine as a low current battery but for high amp draws it really droops in voltage.

                      All in all its interesting that it works but it does not have desirable characteristics for my EV application. And yes I did run it through dozens of cycles.

                      Cheers
                      Ryan

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                      • #26
                        @theremart

                        I only switch now between sodium and potassium alum,
                        Potassium alluminium silicate shall be an extract from the s.a. sulfate
                        This chemical Names are fingerbreakers.

                        Its pretty close at the Chemical table, so i dont think there is to much different.
                        And heck, i dont have a Way to get American Sauce by me at Europe.
                        I only have this 2 Choices, what i can use, and i will see, wich one is good.
                        And right, flushing them with soda is maybe not really needed.

                        I did do it, because it was anyway a very old and not-the-best at all Batterie.
                        It did foam 15 Mins, so i thought, it cant hurt, the Cells even didnt look very bright.
                        But Rainwater, hum, i dont know, i am scared for that.
                        Distilled Water cost for me right now 5 Ltr 2 €. I think i can pay that.
                        But when the Batterie did work, i think too, its not really neccessary,
                        even, it is some extra Effort, to do this.

                        rmay635703 can you tell, wich Alum you did use for this, as you did it?
                        Did your Batterie work before, as you did refill it?
                        I can figure, that sometimes do break the Plates inside very quick,
                        and make a Short, or some Mud can jam the Plates,
                        when you empty the Batterie.
                        Over how much Time did your Batterie discharge?

                        I did disconnect the Batterie now since 6 Hours and watch the Voltage and Ah,
                        to see, if it do discharge over a Time.

                        But else, i think, it should work again, when you only refill it again with distilled Water.
                        Theorizer are like High Voltage. A lot hot Air with no Power behind but they are the dead of applied Work and Ideas.

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                        • #27
                          Today i saw a selfdischarge at the Batterie, 0,05 Volts at 6Hours,
                          not sure, if its the Batterie or the Mix.
                          Now i dropped the half out, and did refill it with dist Water,
                          that i get an other Ratio, maybe 1:20.
                          Now, the Batterie even takes some better charge, going up to 8,3V pulsed DC over a Rectifier (-,+).
                          I will see, if it loose tommorow again charge, and if, i will make an other Ratio again,
                          maybe 1:30.
                          Theorizer are like High Voltage. A lot hot Air with no Power behind but they are the dead of applied Work and Ideas.

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                          • #28
                            I tried the opposite yesterday, adding acid to the battery. It raised voltage after being charged, but after a night rest it's standing voltage is lower than before I add acid. Adding acid is is not good then.

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                            • #29
                              I also today converted my small 6Ah, BOSCH flooded ce;lls type battery to alum.
                              I purchased alum from a chemical lab supply store. Chemical type is potasium alumunum sulfate or KAl(SO4)2.

                              I discharged ,my battery under a 5watt load and measure 2 hours before reacing 7 volts. This battery has suffered much from experimenting and pulse charging. Before convertion i charged battery to almost max value.

                              Nevertheless, emptied the battery of old electrolyte and rinsed it with destilled water 3-4 times. I added the new solution of 100gr per 1000ml water and filled the cells.
                              Starting voltage was 12,05. i now discharge the battery to take measurements before i start cycling under the new electrolyte.
                              I will update info and post photo.

                              Baroutologos

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                              • #30
                                Slightly OT

                                I talked to my car repair place next to work today. They say they can't give me batts because EPA keeps track. Michelin comes in and takes old batts to reuse. For every batts they sell Michelin requires old batt back.

                                Soooo, where can I get batts that are used or dead and be legal?

                                Frustrated but I understand. Them being place of business. But surely, private use?

                                David

                                Edit:
                                Originally posted by baroutologos View Post
                                I also today converted my small 6Ah, BOSCH flooded ce;lls type battery to alum.
                                I purchased alum from a chemical lab supply store. Chemical type is potasium alumunum sulfate or KAl(SO4)2.

                                Nevertheless, emptied the battery of old electrolyte and rinsed it with destilled water 3-4 times. I added the new solution of 100gr per 1000ml water and filled the cells.
                                Starting voltage was 12,05. i now discharge the battery to take measurements before i start cycling under the new electrolyte.
                                I will update info and post photo.

                                Baroutologos
                                See EPA here is Asmerica would have fit and you got to jail if they caught you doing that.

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