Donald Smith Devices too good to be true

[T-1000]

Some news from Dynatron in Russian replication of D. Smith board:
Обещанные мной, пояснения Динатрона. - YouTube
http://narod.ru/disk/43284171001.25d...BB%20.rar.html

[JohnStone]

Thanks John for the document references.

I actually have several spark gap models, but the problem is, the simulation slows down to a processing speed of 2 picoseconds per second.

I do not know much about simulations. I wish to be able ruling that. Your problem is known and that is the reason that behaviour models were invented. But as the spark kitself is not well understood, few math models exist.

Alternatvely:
see and the model
article with model

You have a great approach!!!!!
I think a diac should have e similar behaviour (keep it simple). High voltage breakdown, excessive increasing current vs. decreasing voltage, current depending break of current.
Else you can use a SCR and trigger it at will simulating gap distance.

The next step should be to show what happens if asynchronous brute forth spark vs. well tuned synchronous HF spark (silent) like explained to Mr. Whip today.
I have it as picture in mind but can't draw it and can't simulate it. So you can help visualizing.
Essential tuning means:
- capacitor value before spark,
- voltage at this capacitor,
- spark breakdown voltage,
- voltage swing of L1.

The spark shall ignite just before the negative turnaround of L1 voltage and shall stop latest before reverse current flowing from L1 through spark.
In this case you will see the trumpet shape while FB pulse active.
rgds John

[dragon]

Nicely done Duncan ! Those motors are still used in small appliances such as microwave fans, typically a single coil - I believe their called a shaded pole motor - similar in how they work in any case. These are quite easy to bring to near zero input.

I think another patent that is commonly overlooked is the coils produced by Daniel Cook which predates Tesla by about 15 years # 119,825. These look harmlessly like coils connected together but are in fact 3 plate capacitors harnessing displacement currents. I believe this patent has been altered from it's original as there are key elements missing.

[JohnStone]

Some news from Dynatron in Russian replication of D. Smith board:
Обещанные мной, пояснения Динатрона. - YouTube
Яндекс.Народ

A kingdom for a translation!
Second link: My Hungarian (regarding Moray) is terribly bad (not existing) and my Russian as well.

[JohnStone]

Thanks John for the document references.

I actually have several spark gap models, but the problem is, the simulation slows down to a processing speed of 2 picoseconds per second.

Hi duff,
here my suggestion for modelling SG by a DIAC. I used LTspice first time -Terrible user I/F

There is a DIAC model in [MISC] folder
The resistor and first capacitor perform with their time constant the FB frequency if the diac is being fired. (Replace later on the resistor with an inductor. Amazing resonance phenomenon is possible! Tesla coilers know that.)
If using a SCR the trigger should be controlled by voltage difference L1 vs. first capacitor. Simulators provide opamps as comparators or Schmitt trigger in KV range if you wish to.
I feel it to be very important to comprehend the circuit in conventional terms before we proceed into unknow terrain. You can help.
I am ancouraged to start with LT-spice.

Sent you a PM.

rgds John

[FRC]

Duncan

I just read your last pdf, very interesting. I do not really understand the part
about syncronous motors. How do we get free or radiant energy using these?
You can easily get your hands on these motors. They were used in older Hammond tonewheel organs. They are frequently listed on Craigslist and Ebay, etc. The cheapest ones would be the T100 series, if you just wanted them for the motors, since these are less desirable because of their solid state amplifiers, as opposed to the tube amplifiers in other tonewheel models.

George

[soundiceuk]

I'm sorry, I don't fully understand you question.

The capacitor are grounded on the primary side when the spark gap fires.
They are ground on the secondary side a the L2/L3 center-tap.

What you say makes sense. I'm sure a few people said Don's way could not work.

The confusion is in the circuit diagrams of shown working circuits.

The spark gap has been shown to work when in parallel with the half wave rectified HV outputs.

Mr Clean had a working circuit with spark gap in series and the capacitor in parallel but changed it to the parallel with HV outputs.

Your simulation has it working Don's way.

Its strange no one has got a working replication Don's way AFAIK.


What are the effects of these different ways. Which is the best and why?

[duff]

What you say makes sense. I'm sure a few people said Don's way could not work.

The confusion is in the circuit diagrams of shown working circuits.

The spark gap has been shown to work when in parallel with the half wave rectified HV outputs.

Mr Clean had a working circuit with spark gap in series and the capacitor in parallel but changed it to the parallel with HV outputs.

Your simulation has it working Don's way.

Its strange no one has got a working replication Don's way AFAIK.


What are the effects of these different ways. Which is the best and why?

Well, I didn't really get it to work Don's way, since I did not include the spark gap in the simulations but the simulations give insight into the circuit and some possible misconceptions that are floating around.


@all

Included are the LTspice sim files for those that are interested:

www.asymtotic.net/don_smith/sims/don_smith_table_top-ou.asc

www.asymtotic.net/don_smith/sims/don_smith_table_top-ou.plt

www.asymtotic.net/don_smith/sims/don_smith_table_top-ou.net

[Farmhand]

What you say makes sense. I'm sure a few people said Don's way could not work.

The confusion is in the circuit diagrams of shown working circuits.

The spark gap has been shown to work when in parallel with the half wave rectified HV outputs.

Mr Clean had a working circuit with spark gap in series and the capacitor in parallel but changed it to the parallel with HV outputs.

Your simulation has it working Don's way.

Its strange no one has got a working replication Don's way AFAIK.


What are the effects of these different ways. Which is the best and why?

Duff, I think what soundiceuk is getting at is that in your schematic when
the spark gap is between the capacitor negative and the supply negative the
capacitor can't charge, you might get a spark through the spark gap but it
won't be a capacitive discharge because the capacitor has no current source
to charge when the spark gap is not conducting and it is shorted by the coil
anyway when it is conducting.

In the simulation you didn't use the spark gap from what i can gather. Can
you redo the simulation with a sidac or SCR ? I know the voltage will have to
be lower but there needs to be a switch of some kind.

http://www.asymtotic.net/don_smith/i...hematic-02.png

..

Duncan, Isn't reactive power just the difference between real power and
apparent power ? ie. if 100 watts is applied to an inductive load to cause an
given effect but the consumed power is only 50 watts then the difference of
50 watts is reactive and tries to get back to the supply where it came from.
A capacitor placed in the right location will take on this power as charge
rather than have it dissipated or returned to the supply which causes
unnecessary current and heat. If for some reason the reactive power has no
path back to the supply then it must dissipate in the device = heat.

This Tesla system below utilizes the currents induced in the rotor windings as
generated output as the purpose of the device.

It's an interesting patent, Do you understand it ?

Tesla Dynamo Electric Machine Patent

There is a lot of information about it in here. Page 42 thereabouts.
http://ia700302.us.archive.org/16/it...00martiala.pdf


Cheers

[Duncan]

I just read your last pdf, very interesting. I do not really understand the part
about syncronous motors. How do we get free or radiant energy using these?
You can easily get your hands on these motors. They were used in older Hammond tonewheel organs. They are frequently listed on Craigslist and Ebay, etc. The cheapest ones would be the T100 series, if you just wanted them for the motors, since these are less desirable because of their solid state amplifiers, as opposed to the tube amplifiers in other tonewheel models.

George

Yeh Hi George, It is not very often that folks trained in data and radio transmission stop even for a second or two to consider a high power grid in the same light, with the same �standing waves� and reflected power and of course the same �Radiant and reactive� content, of course it is so, the names and the units and the teaching has been totally altered, (a rose by any other name) the power consumers are forced to buy very expensive capacitors/batteries in order to counter this �radiant power� going back some 70 years or so it was very common for the consumer to use synchronous motors to make use of this reactive �radiant energy� and correct the �power factor� while gaining useful energy. Where do you get the power from ? That�s the easy bit George you�ve got a spinning shaft connect what you wish ! Providing its a constant load of course. As for the organ motors you suggest It is the �variable� field interaction that�s important and so permanent magnet or synchronous �shaded pole� motors would be quite useless .These motors now seem to be referred to by the curious name of �synchronous condensers� but thanks for the Info George I'll check them out.

[Guruji]

Frequency

Hi guys does frequency changes in parts of the circuit or it stays the same through all of it?
My frequency meter at certain places freaks out.
Thanks

[JohnStone]

....


@all

Included are the LTspice sim files for those that are interested:

www.asymtotic.net/don_smith/sims/don_smith_table_top-ou.asc

www.asymtotic.net/don_smith/sims/don_smith_table_top-ou.plt

www.asymtotic.net/don_smith/sims/don_smith_table_top-ou.net

Thanks for posting. As a greenhorn in simulations matter it will take some time to struggle before results.
As Farmhand mentioned it seems somewhat strange but I understand that you try to do exactly what Don's pictured setup shows to us. But see below. Your simulation setup is suitable!

Some hint regaring siumulation:
1. Simulation tries to preempt reality but it is not full reality and we need to know exactly what we do (see below). It is like statistics - you can prove any fact by playing the white and black keys correctly.
2. The capacitors in parallel to L1 tune it's resonant frequency. Our notion is that we need in real life an additional capacitor before (Tesla) in order to get an extremely short and strong kick to L1 - NSTs can't do that by their own.
3. A source in simulation gives any unrealistic amount of amps. It should be reduced by a resistor.
4. For first simulations we can omit the primary cap because we can adjust the source to give short high amp pulses and we can study L1 reaction. Neverthesless the amps need to be reduced to i.e. less than 20 amps. The two .1�F caps are able to inhale (unrealistic) thousands of amps for short time. Simulating that can be very time consuming.
5. Later on you can insert the primary cap in order to get an more realistic approach for real circuits.
6. The series SG is a good candidate for silent hissing gaps because there is the chance to tune it for being switched on and off by the L1 frequency itself.

[JohnStone]

Hi guys does frequency changes in parts of the circuit or it stays the same through all of it?
My frequency meter at certain places freaks out.
Thanks

It is questionable if frequency meters (especially digital ones) can be used at all.
The basic L1/L2 frequency will be stable but the sparks produce extreme noise, a mix af any frequency up to GHz. So what frequency to be measured? Google pics for "fft square wave". FFT shows the decomposition of any signal in basic frequencies it is built of. Consider the frequency mix occuring at simple square wave. This mix gets more and more rich as we increase amplitude and decrease duty cycle.

[nightwind]

Don Smith Video

Is there video of Don actually demonstrating his OU device without being encased? I've seen the one in the black travel case in 1996. He shows a lot of models but I haven't seen an open working model. Please provide a link if you have one. Thanks

[dragon]

Don has never shown an "open" working device publicly. He refused to open the case of the only so called working device which leads one to be quite skeptical.