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  • Originally posted by Farmhand View Post
    Where did that drawing come from Drak ? Are you sure it is drawn by Don ?
    It looks like it was modified by someone else.

    I haven't even tried a parallel gap yet I keep distracting myself having fun.

    The frequency I'm pulsing the ignition coil at is 1.4 Khz and 2.8 Khz when I
    flick the switch, the input is barely 200 Ma at the lower frequency input. The
    coils themselves are much higher frequency but the accumulated charge
    breaks down the gap when the spark fires, there are two accumulation points,
    one in the primary caps and one in the toroid terminal. If I increase power to
    the ignition coil by increasing PW the spark gap frequency increases in tones.

    I estimated the voltage of the sparks to be about 20 Kv in that video, but
    they can get a fair bit bigger if I use just one coil ground connected, I was
    discharging HV caps charged from the second Tesla transformer's output coil
    through a neon while I was doing that also.

    Cheers
    Pretty cool! I'd like to have a tesla coil to play with. Maybe one day. So what do you think makes it so that you can't feel the sparks?

    I got it from here http://www.free-energy-info.com/Smith.pdf However it might not be from don. Was just checking it out.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Farmhand View Post
      I'm not certain Drak but I think with a parallel spark gap there is no diode.

      I think the cap is in series and the spark gap in parallel like in the drawing on this page. EDIT: scroll down below the table of figure's.
      Tesla Coil Design Guide

      Oh and on a side note it seems these sparks from this experimental Tesla coil setup don't hurt or tingle, at least not until I use more than 500 Ma on the input.
      Cold Sparks.wmv - YouTube

      Cheers
      I've seen similar results with my 8.5" diameter coil wound with 8ga wire...

      windfilter's Channel - YouTube

      Comment


      • Originally posted by dragon View Post
        I've seen similar results with my 8.5" diameter coil wound with 8ga wire...

        windfilter's Channel - YouTube
        Wow cool, that sounds like sweet music. I think I can't feel it because the
        power is low, even though the voltage is high, but that's just my hunch, it does
        make my fingertips smell a bit like aluminium dust (metalic) after doing it for a
        while. And if I up the power so the arc frequency is also high then it turns
        nasty. It's funny because if I touch the spark gap it nails me good.
        Even after I turn it off if the caps are still charged.

        Cheers

        Oh I did notice that the arc goes from me to the coil. This is obvious when
        the plasma forks and spreads towards the coil away from me. I think it looks
        backwards.

        ..
        Last edited by Farmhand; 10-20-2011, 01:39 AM.

        Comment


        • Hey Drak, I wouldn't trust that document all too much, there seems to be a
          lot of dubious drawings added as peoples opinions of how they think it could
          work.
          I've gone right off that book. I don't think he did himself any favors including
          drawings of NST's with the dioides going from the center tap to the two NST
          outputs (the coil ends). They are around the wrong way surely. I know the
          drawing you posted isn't like that but some in the book are.

          I see two drawing there with the diodes around the wrong way. I
          remember looking at those some time ago and wondering "why".

          I think there is only one drawing for Dons device and it's primary circuit has a
          series gap on the negative side of L1, a parallel cap and diodes facing the
          correct way. As far as the primary circuit go's it works.

          A discussion about the Kelly book.
          "Free Energy" scams discussed - All About Circuits Forum

          Cheers

          Comment


          • The first time I experienced that effect was with a solar powered passive spark gap oscillator driving a 500 turn large diameter coil. When ever I was in close proximity of the coil I could hear a buzzing sound, being outside I didn't see the blue arcs. Investigating it further and shading the area I could see the bluish arcs coming from my fingers. I was quite amazed at that, up till then I had only heard about it. I've also heard that lengthy playing in that type of discharge can cause nerve damage - I don't know how true that is but it might be worth heeding the warning until more information is available. I've played with this in several coils since with no damage as yet. Although, which might not be related, a lesion that was on my hand for a long time has since disappeared. Interesting therapy if in fact the short "play times" in the energetic fields has had this kind of effect.

            To much fun !

            Comment


            • Originally posted by dragon View Post
              The first time I experienced that effect was with a solar powered passive spark gap oscillator driving a 500 turn large diameter coil. When ever I was in close proximity of the coil I could hear a buzzing sound, being outside I didn't see the blue arcs. Investigating it further and shading the area I could see the bluish arcs coming from my fingers. I was quite amazed at that, up till then I had only heard about it. I've also heard that lengthy playing in that type of discharge can cause nerve damage - I don't know how true that is but it might be worth heeding the warning until more information is available. I've played with this in several coils since with no damage as yet. Although, which might not be related, a lesion that was on my hand for a long time has since disappeared. Interesting therapy if in fact the short "play times" in the energetic fields has had this kind of effect.

              To much fun !
              Yes you're right, caution should be a rule and I think short plays are best.
              I remember a warning in a Tesla lecture about some problems from lower
              frequencies, I'll find it and post it.

              I just turned the power up and got booted by the first arc from the terminal
              about 30 mm long but you're also right there is plasma forming before that
              happens.

              Page 318 of this book. Book Link.

              Were the potentials sufficiently high and the frequency
              of the vibration rather low, the skin would probably be ruptured
              under the tremendous strain, and the blood would rush out
              with great force in the form of fine spray or jet so thin as to be
              invisible, just as oil will when placed on the positive terminal of
              a Holtz machine.
              Sounds nasty.
              Last edited by Farmhand; 10-20-2011, 03:07 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by cognito View Post
                Hi,

                I have no precise formula (not yet ) to calculate coil configurations.
                Induction receiving coils on MHz frequency should have large surface (skin effect).

                What setup are you going for?
                Type A:[CW,CCW] or
                Type B:[6A reverse Tesla coil] ?

                Your calculated value example Type A:
                Say HV L1 input 2000V. 5 turns; L2 40 turns (each or total {CW,CCW}?)

                2000V / 5 = 400V/turn transfer to L2. (40 * 400) = 16KV AC Vpp !!!
                So 8KV DC after diode bridge and double frequency on capacitor bank.


                Type A:
                L1 1/4 length of L2.
                So L2 is split {CW and CCW}. 2*1/2 lengths, total full wave.

                Type B:
                L1 1/4 length of L2.
                L2 is full wave. (this coil maintains resonance on FULL WAVE ???)
                6A is 1/4, 1/2, 1 length ??? (resonance maintained coil) Reverse Tesla Coil

                Frequency depends on capacitor bank storage, to keep it full ???



                Best regards

                I was thinking to try Don's setup first get an idea of what is working and what is not. And then try the reverse Tesla setup for the coils.
                But i would prefer not to try in random the cables awg but instead try to calculate what is needed according to working scenarios i've read, i.e. 1/4 the length of L1 of L2 - same weight.
                When i get the coils then calculating the Caps for resonance will be a matter of correct measuring the inductance (with a LZR meter) and doing some math (+experimenting).

                I needed some input from the people that have tried the above.

                Regarding skin effect, would n't be better to mitigate skin effect (counter EMF) in order to get higher EMF using Litz wire or thinner (higher value awg)?

                According to : Wire and Cable in order to get no skin effect at the frequencies we are talking about here (30kHz) a value of probably 42 awg (that's hair 0.07874 mm diameter) will be better for the higher frequencies.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bitlotbit View Post
                  I was thinking to try Don's setup first get an idea of what is working and what is not. And then try the reverse Tesla setup for the coils.
                  But i would prefer not to try in random the cables awg but instead try to calculate what is needed according to working scenarios i've read, i.e. 1/4 the length of L1 of L2 - same weight.
                  When i get the coils then calculating the Caps for resonance will be a matter of correct measuring the inductance (with a LZR meter) and doing some math (+experimenting).

                  I needed some input from the people that have tried the above.

                  Regarding skin effect, would n't be better to mitigate skin effect (counter EMF) in order to get higher EMF using Litz wire or thinner (higher value awg)?

                  According to : Wire and Cable in order to get no skin effect at the frequencies we are talking about here (30kHz) a value of probably 42 awg (that's hair 0.07874 mm diameter) will be better for the higher frequencies.
                  I have not yet seen a working Don Smith device which provides a measured sine wave output through a battery of bulbs or any other load.

                  The 30 Khz or so is the frequency of the NST, the air core coils themselves will have a frequency in the Mhz range.

                  How did you come to the conclusion the skin effect is CEMF ?

                  Cheers

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Farmhand View Post
                    I have not yet seen a working Don Smith device which provides a measured sine wave output through a battery of bulbs or any other load.

                    The 30 Khz or so is the frequency of the NST, the air core coils themselves will have a frequency in the Mhz range.

                    How did you come to the conclusion the skin effect is CEMF ?

                    Cheers
                    In order to calculate the caps for L1 iam using the output frequency from the NST which is 30Khz. I thought that was the frequency that will frive the L1 coil. Ami correct to understand that the caps will pulse the L1 coil to the Mhz range? or else how the coil will get to that Mhz frequency?

                    Skin effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                    "The counter EMF is strongest at the center of the conductor, and forces the conducting electrons to the outside of the conductor, as shown in the diagram on the right."
                    Last edited by bitlotbit; 10-20-2011, 09:07 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by bitlotbit View Post
                      Skin effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                      "The counter EMF is strongest at the center of the conductor, and forces the conducting electrons to the outside of the conductor, as shown in the diagram on the right."
                      Yes I see, thanks for that, I just learned something, I was confused by the
                      way you wrote it, I thought you were saying that the skin effect was the
                      actual CEMF, technically the CEMF causes the skin effect (going by the wiki)
                      and the CEMF will always be relative to the EMF as it is it's counterpart,
                      reducing skin effect will not reduce CEMF because if reducing skin effect
                      increases EMF the CEMF will also increase. Small point. But I think it to be
                      true.

                      Regarding skin effect, would n't be better to mitigate skin effect (counter EMF) in order to get higher EMF using Litz wire or thinner (higher value awg)?
                      Maybe it's better to have the current near the outside of the conductor
                      anyway as long as the current is not restricted too much. Not sure.

                      Is there a benefit to the induction if the current is more to the center of the
                      wire ? If so then litz wire is a good idea.

                      Where were you thinking of using the Litz wire just in the primary ?

                      Did you consider a large diameter tubular conductor ?

                      Litz is probably much easier to use though.

                      Cheers

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Farmhand View Post
                        Yes I see, thanks for that, I just learned something, I was confused by the
                        way you wrote it, I thought you were saying that the skin effect was the
                        actual CEMF, technically the CEMF causes the skin effect (going by the wiki)
                        and the CEMF will always be relative to the EMF as it is it's counterpart,
                        reducing skin effect will not reduce CEMF because if reducing skin effect
                        increases EMF the CEMF will also increase. Small point. But I think it to be
                        true.



                        Maybe it's better to have the current near the outside of the conductor
                        anyway as long as the current is not restricted too much. Not sure.

                        Is there a benefit to the induction if the current is more to the center of the
                        wire ? If so then litz wire is a good idea.

                        Where were you thinking of using the Litz wire just in the primary ?

                        Did you consider a large diameter tubular conductor ?

                        Litz is probably much easier to use though.

                        Cheers
                        I think a large diameter tubular conductor will be something like high value awg in terms of skin effect, since the μ Permeability (electromagnetism) of air in the tube is higher than Copper and it will yield smaller skin depth value (δ). So yes it must be a better solution for this.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by bitlotbit View Post
                          I think a large diameter tubular conductor will be something like high value awg in terms of skin effect, since the μ Permeability (electromagnetism) of air in the tube is higher than Copper and it will yield smaller skin depth value (δ). So yes it must be a better solution for this.
                          Is there any chance that we might have an Arc inside this kind of conductor?

                          Comment


                          • No I don't see how that would be possible, with litz all the adjacent wires would
                            all be at the same voltage, same with the tube it would be no more likely to arc
                            inside than outside, I don't think.

                            Comment


                            • Farmhand, I know you are quite interested in books on electricity of the Same period as Tesla

                              I think i found a book you might like along with everyone else

                              ELECTRIC POWER TRANSMISSION
                              A PRACTICAL TREATISE FOR PRACTICAL MEN 1906
                              LOUIS BELL, Ph. D.


                              Full text of "Electric power transmission; a practical treatise for practical men"

                              This volume is designed to set forth in the simplest possible
                              manner, the fundamental facts concerning present practice in
                              electrical power transmission.

                              Busy men have little time txy spend in discussing theories of
                              which the practical results are known, or in following the
                              derivation of formula) which no one disputes. The author has
                              therefore endeavored, in introducing such theoretical consid-
                              erations as are necessary, to explain them in the most direct
                              way practicable; using proximate methods of proof when pre-
                              cise and general ones would lead to mathematical complica-
                              tions without altering the conclusion for the purpose in hand,
                              and stating only the results of investigation when the processes
                              are undesfrably complicated.
                              Now, if this pendulum be given a twist it will oscillate at
                              constant frequency imtil the friction gradually brings it to
                              rest with oscillations of steadily decreasing amplitude. If,
                              however, at the end of each complete swing it should receive a
                              slight push, its oscillations would continue and would increase
                              in amplitude up to a limit set by the frictional resistance.
                              The condition for such permanent increase of amplitude is
                              that the frequency of the pushes must coincide with the period
                              of the pendulum. In the electrical case, resonance thus


                              156 ELECTRIC TRANSMISSION OF POWER,

                              occurs when the frequency and the time constant of the cir-
                              cuit are equal. Further, maintaining our auxiliary pushes at
                              their original frequency, suppose / to be decreased by taking
                              weight off A progressively. As the time constant of the
                              pendulum thus diminished a point would be found, and that
                              very soon, at which resonance would cease, and the same
                              result would follow increase of /, so that when the circuit
                              begins to get out of tune the resonance soon becomes rather
                              trivial. If, however, the pushes were supplemented by others
                              of 3, 5, 7, etc., times the frequency, corresponding to the
                              harmonics found in an ordinary alternating circuit, new points
                              of resonance would appear when the period of A assumed
                              corresponding values.

                              As to the magnitude of the resonant effect, in the torsional
                              pendulum case the amplitude evidently increases with the
                              strength of the pushes, their absolute frequency, which mea-
                              sures the energy supplied, and the moment of inertia of A^
                              which stores this energy. It decreases in virtue of the fric-
                              tional resistance. Corresponding reasoning holds in the elec-
                              trical case, and to a first approximation the E. M. F. in a
                              completely resonant circuit is

                              in which E is the impressed E. M. F. concerned, L the induc-
                              tance in henrys, R the resistance in ohms, and n the frequency.
                              In case of resonance with harmonics, n and E refer to the
                              frequency and magnitude of the harmonic implicated, and E'
                              becomes a resonant component of the E. M. F. wave. This
                              subject will be discussed more at length in Chapter XIII.
                              We have now glanced at the most striking characteristics
                              of alternating currents those concerned with the phenomena
                              of inductance and capacity.

                              It rcmains to note very briefly some other physical proper-
                              ties that are of practical importance.

                              The most important single property of alternating current
                              is the ease with which it can be changed inductively from one
                              voltage to another. If a circuit carrying such a current is put
                              in inductive relation with another circuit as in Fig. 4, Chapter

                              I, the electro-magnetic stresses set up by the first circuit can be
                              utilized to produce alternating current of any desired voltage
                              in the second circuit. The details of the operation will be
                              taken up later; suffice it to say here that it is essentially the
                              transformation of the electro-magnetic energy due to one
                              circuit into electrical energy in another circuit.

                              Alternating currents can be regulated in amount by putting
                              inductance in the circuit without losing more than a very
                              trifling amount of energy. This very property, however, is
                              troublesome when an alternating current is used for magnetiz-
                              ing purposes. It is very difficult to get a large current to flow
                              around a magnet core because of the high inductance, and even
                              then the magnetic and other losses in the core are serious imless
                              great care is taken. These difficulties have stood in the way
                              of getting a good alternating motor until within the past few
                              years, and even now such motors have to be designed and con-
                              structed with the greatest care to avoid trouble from induc-
                              tance and iron losses. For some classes of work, such as teleg-
                              raphy and electrolytic operations, the alternating current is
                              ill suited save under special conditions and with special appar-
                              atus. For the general purposes of electrical power transmis-
                              sion it is singularly well fitted, from the great ease with which
                              transfonnations of voltage can be made, certain very valuable
                              properties of the modem alternating motor, and the great
                              simplicity and efficiency with which regulation can be efifected.
                              The only inconvenience attending transmission by alter-
                              nating current is that incurred when direct current must for
                              one reason, or another, be supplied. This is in a fair way to
                              be greatly reduced by both increasing use of alternating cur-
                              rent in distribution, and by improvement in apparatus for
                              obtaining direct current from an alternating source.
                              One of the Chapter covered is:

                              Properties of Direct and Alternating Current Arcs . . . 592


                              Last edited by MonsieurM; 10-20-2011, 12:13 PM.
                              Signs and symbols rule the world, not words nor laws. -Confucius.

                              Comment

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