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High Speed SSG - advise pls

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  • High Speed SSG - advise pls

    Hi,

    I am in the process of trying to replicate a form of Bedini Free energy Generator (i.e. FEG) (although not in strict context as Mr Bedini suggests)

    Actually, the concept will be a magneto generator inspired by Heins Thane Perepiteia design and a suitable high efficiency motor drive with energy recovery instead of on-off function of permanent magnet motor.

    I have not much experience in pulsed motors. So far i have been experimenting with Bedini SGG and some reed-coil simple pulse motors setup.

    It seems to me that the SSG can perform, the motor function of this generator since can produce some mechanical output.
    More specific i want the device to be able to reach some 2000-2500 rmp, with a reasonable amp draw, and having a little bit of torque.

    So far, my SSG could never be over 300 rmp. Could you please point me out what are the key points in creating relatively high rpm ssg with some torque involved. Could SSG do that?

    Regards,
    Baroutologos

  • #2
    It is easy to get an ssg up to those speeds but it depends on the size of your rotor. If you are using a large diameter rotor like a bike wheel then it may be tricky

    My rotors are normally around 5-6" diameter and 2500rpm isn't a problem for them... with multiple coils I can get them between 5000-6000 rpm. But at those speeds rotor balancing becomes and issue.
    Though is it high rpm you want or high frequency?
    "Theory guides. Experiment decides."

    I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... Such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything.
    Nikola Tesla

    Comment


    • #3
      Details...

      Thanks Shephiroth for all

      OK, let me explain my plans better...

      I have not experience in pulsed motors. Ihave though much experimentation with Bedini SSG and apart from energizer it seems to me an ultra effiecient motor.

      SO, I am gonna use the SSG as the pulse motor portion of Bedini Free Energy Generator, instead of the permanent magnet motor.

      But in order to do so, i need at least some torque, which i do not know if Bedini SSG possess...

      From your experience so far i think you clearly suggest that a small rotor, few magnets SSG can easily achieve 1500-2000 rmp. That the one thing.
      The other is the little torque. Has any? What must do to add some? More coils? More voltage? Stronger magnets?

      By the way the rotor i plan will be about 11' (27cm) and i care about having 1500 - 2500 adjustable rpm

      Suggestions are always wellcome.

      Regards,
      Baroutologos
      Last edited by baroutologos; 04-25-2009, 05:59 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        A larger rotor will exert more torque at the axis, but this is at the cost of rpm... pretty much like gearing...

        but if you want high rpm AND torque your best bet is probably with the rotor you suggested, or possibly a bit larger, and to use multiple coils out of phase.

        I built a three phase SSG a while ago which had high rpm and good torque. But unfortunately it was so loud that I received multiple complaints from my neibours about running it at night, which made proper testing inconvenient so I was forced to abandon it I am now using its coils in my oscillator but I still have the frame work which I will use at a later date (moving house to escape the neibours ) for experimenting with the adam's motor.

        here are some pics







        On a rotor the size of yours, you could easily fit many more coils around it out of phase. Each will need it's own trigger circuit so each coil fires independantly.

        One issue I had with a rotor as small as mine was that the coils were so close together that they would trigger the coil next to it when they energised. I got around that by adding inductors in the trigger circuit to smooth out the signal. This also significantly reduces amp draw in standard ssg configurations.

        A bike wheel rotor shouldn't have that problem since you will have plenty of space to place the coils.

        Also, if you want as much torque for as little current as possible, I would recommend using 2 stage inductance as I discussed here

        http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-monopole.html

        this will let you use the flyback current to produce more mechanical work for less input by reducing the pulse width.

        I believe a combination of all these elements would produce a high rpm, high torque motor for minimum input current.
        "Theory guides. Experiment decides."

        I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... Such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything.
        Nikola Tesla

        Comment


        • #5
          Most questions answered.

          Hello again...

          You just, could not be more enlightening Seph! You gave me a plethora of suggestions for current and future setups. Thanks so much.

          ....In the first place and for safety reasons I planned about making it a Axial SSG and not a radial.

          Because, in axial mode i can machine the magnets (discs) holes in the flat surface of an alluminum disk, and fasten them solid enough to assure no flying magnet comes out..
          But in radial mode, that magnets go in the outer edge of the rotor and cannot be so sure that they stick in place..

          Have you any experience with axial Bedini SSGs? Do they have same attributes as torque or they are less efficient?
          Also alluminum disk as rotor... what's your view? Good, bad, neutral? I cannot trust plexiglass or fiberglass here.

          Thanks for all,

          Regards,
          Baroutologos

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by baroutologos View Post
            Thanks Shephiroth for all

            OK, let me explain my plans better...

            I have not experience in pulsed motors. Ihave though much experimentation with Bedini SSG and apart from energizer it seems to me an ultra effiecient motor.

            SO, I am gonna use the SSG as the pulse motor portion of Bedini Free Energy Generator, instead of the permanent magnet motor.

            But in order to do so, i need at least some torque, which i do not know if Bedini SSG possess...

            From your experience so far i think you clearly suggest that a small rotor, few magnets SSG can easily achieve 1500-2000 rmp. That the one thing.
            The other is the little torque. Has any? What must do to add some? More coils? More voltage? Stronger magnets?

            By the way the rotor i plan will be about 11' (27cm) and i care about having 1500 - 2500 adjustable rpm

            Suggestions are always wellcome.

            Regards,
            Baroutologos
            If you examine the SSG very closely in the concepts it is the evolution of the free energy generator.
            The free energy generator had a DC motor and the flywheel and the energizer(generator)
            The SSG incorporates all three of those things into one unit. the wheel becomes the flywheel and the muiltifilar coil with the trigger circuit are what relpaced the DC motor and the generator. that transistor in the SSG triggers the drive pulse to make the wheel the motor and the spinning magnets become the energizer and work along with the field collapse for charging the battery. So instead of trying what you are, just work on the SSG and combine all the ideas of the Free energy generator into one unit. They are one in the same just the gemotry is different and the parts are integrated into only one Active part instead of three.
            Last edited by vzon17; 04-26-2009, 11:41 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Torque and the SSG.

              Hi,

              I tried a 3 phase windmill generator setup with the SSG with neo magnets. I found if I went to 24V I could generate a small amount of energy for what was was put in. The trouble was the more I pulled out the more drag I put on the system, thus the charging rate went down because of lower speed.

              An experiment I do want to test is to take the transformer and hook it up to one of the coils of my generator and see if I get the same amount of drag on the setup as pulling directly from the coil itself. It does seem others are getting good results with a transformer extracting the energy from a generator coil without introducing extra drag on the setup. I look forward to when I can test this.

              The SSG does not give much torque by nature, I have found you have to let it come up to full speed then add your modest load to it. But then you will see the charge rate go down... It all seems that there are trade offs when you try to harvest energy out of the SSG setup.

              Cheers!
              See my experiments here...
              http://www.youtube.com/marthale7

              You do not have to prove something for it to be true. However, you do have to prove something for others to believe it true.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by theremart View Post
                Hi,

                I tried a 3 phase windmill generator setup with the SSG with neo magnets. I found if I went to 24V I could generate a small amount of energy for what was was put in. The trouble was the more I pulled out the more drag I put on the system, thus the charging rate went down because of lower speed.

                An experiment I do want to test is to take the transformer and hook it up to one of the coils of my generator and see if I get the same amount of drag on the setup as pulling directly from the coil itself. It does seem others are getting good results with a transformer extracting the energy from a generator coil without introducing extra drag on the setup. I look forward to when I can test this.

                The SSG does not give much torque by nature, I have found you have to let it come up to full speed then add your modest load to it. But then you will see the charge rate go down... It all seems that there are trade offs when you try to harvest energy out of the SSG setup.

                Cheers!
                Yes, its a whole bunch of trade-offs because altering anything on the SG affects something else. We can have more mechanical for less electrical and vica-versa but we cannot have more of both without increasing the input power. This is a fact that will be realised when the SG is carefully studied. Passive generator coils can be added but again if any appreciable output is required from the coils, this does slow down the rotor and consequently reduces energiser output.

                The total energy collected by the charging battery, together with the energy from the generator coils will not exceed the total energy input to the energiser. COP will increase as the charging battery becomes conditioned but an overunity condition will not be reached. If the mechanical is not required, then the rotor can be dispensed with and the transistor either configured into an oscillator (see John Bedini's USApp20080129250), or trigered at the transistor base from very short duty cycle pulse train from an external generator.

                Hoppy

                Comment


                • #9
                  My view

                  Originally posted by Hoppy View Post
                  Passive generator coils can be added but again if any appreciable output is required from the coils, this does slow down the rotor and consequently reduces energiser output.

                  The total energy collected by the charging battery, together with the energy from the generator coils will not exceed the total energy input to the energiser.
                  Hoppy
                  That excactly, Hoppy, i am planning to see. If the output passive coils can exceed in power the input or at least the losses of the SSG drive motor.

                  Regarding the view that the SSG, as we know it, is an evolution of Bedini Free Energy Generator I think IT IS NOT. SSG is another project by itself. do not be rushed to argue this. I explain.

                  FEG has to do with creating some current in high voltage and feeding an capacitor. The whole procedure in my view has nothing to do with with battery condition and thus there gaining overunity. So the secret is either in cap or "energizer" setup. I think its the latter.

                  My plans is that there will be some coils (passive) that will generate high voltage, low current, that when combined they will generate more power that the SSG motor/energizer electrical losses, thus achieving OU.
                  IMPOSSIBLE? Perhaps, experiments will tell...

                  You can have a carefull look at what i plan to do. (check this video and read carefully the INFO)YouTube - GOD'S APRIL FOOLS JOKE on Science & the SECRET

                  then having an open mind and some critical view compare it ot Bedini FEG.

                  Conclusions discussion.... here.

                  Regards,
                  Baroutologos


                  ps: Anyone has made any axial SSG?
                  Last edited by baroutologos; 04-26-2009, 06:38 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    @ Sephiroth...

                    Hi again,
                    I have mounted the rotors, chassis made, bearings fit and I decide to fire it single coil at various voltages.

                    Lets me explain my actual setup...

                    chassis
                    ....................

                    Strong, fresh solid woodwork, with two bearings attached for the shaft. No metals found in chassis. I wanted to minimize eddie currents. Solid metals are found on the shaft and rotors but since they are revolving together no eddies are expected.

                    shaft & rotors in AXIAL SSG
                    ......................................

                    2 x 28 cm alluminum rotors machined to fit:
                    one of the 6 disks neomagnets, doubled stacked 25mm diam x 20mm all north out

                    the other rotor, 6 ferrites disk magnets 30mm x 20mm grade 8 all north out

                    main shaft mild steel some 20mm and 40cm long suitably machined so as to be as balanced as possible.

                    The shaft spins quite easily but is nowhere near to compare with the bicycle freewheeling. With the hand a spin of 300 rpm could be achieved.

                    Preliminary results with Single coil
                    ............................................

                    I used my coil from the SSG (5 x 22 awg @ 100meters + 24awg trigger) 8cm long x 6 cm thick
                    The circuit is composed of 3 DB243C transistors.

                    In 15volts the shaft rotated at 300 rpm max
                    Raising the volts steadily till 35 an 500 rmp maxxed out.

                    I must confess i am a bit dissapointed. I expected higher speed.

                    I plan at mounting the 3 (3x18 awg @ 45meters & 22awg trigger) coils made 6,5 cm long and 5-6 thick, driven by 3 autonomous SSG circuits. MJ15024 transisistors will be used (1 per coil)


                    I wait to see the new results even though i not expect miracles.

                    Recomendations are wellcome for attaining speed and some torque.

                    @ Sephiroth,
                    Your radial SSG seph, single coil what king of rpm maxxes and what with all the 3 of them?

                    Regards, Baroutologos

                    pshotos coming

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by baroutologos View Post
                      @ Sephiroth...

                      Hi again,
                      I have mounted the rotors, chassis made, bearings fit and I decide to fire it single coil at various voltages.

                      Lets me explain my actual setup...

                      chassis
                      ....................

                      Strong, fresh solid woodwork, with two bearings attached for the shaft. No metals found in chassis. I wanted to minimize eddie currents. Solid metals are found on the shaft and rotors but since they are revolving together no eddies are expected.

                      shaft & rotors in AXIAL SSG
                      ......................................

                      2 x 28 cm alluminum rotors machined to fit:
                      one of the 6 disks neomagnets, doubled stacked 25mm diam x 20mm all north out

                      the other rotor, 6 ferrites disk magnets 30mm x 20mm grade 8 all north out

                      main shaft mild steel some 20mm and 40cm long suitably machined so as to be as balanced as possible.

                      The shaft spins quite easily but is nowhere near to compare with the bicycle freewheeling. With the hand a spin of 300 rpm could be achieved.

                      Preliminary results with Single coil
                      ............................................

                      I used my coil from the SSG (5 x 22 awg @ 100meters + 24awg trigger) 8cm long x 6 cm thick
                      The circuit is composed of 3 DB243C transistors.

                      In 15volts the shaft rotated at 300 rpm max
                      Raising the volts steadily till 35 an 500 rmp maxxed out.

                      I must confess i am a bit dissapointed. I expected higher speed.

                      I plan at mounting the 3 (3x18 awg @ 45meters & 22awg trigger) coils made 6,5 cm long and 5-6 thick, driven by 3 autonomous SSG circuits. MJ15024 transisistors will be used (1 per coil)


                      I wait to see the new results even though i not expect miracles.

                      Recomendations are wellcome for attaining speed and some torque.

                      @ Sephiroth,
                      Your radial SSG seph, single coil what king of rpm maxxes and what with all the 3 of them?

                      Regards, Baroutologos

                      pshotos coming


                      Hi Baroutologos

                      Try using 30-50m, 18AWG strand coils with MJ21194 or MJL21194 transistors.

                      Hoppy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sephiroth View Post
                        A larger rotor will exert more torque at the axis, but this is at the cost of rpm... pretty much like gearing...

                        but if you want high rpm AND torque your best bet is probably with the rotor you suggested, or possibly a bit larger, and to use multiple coils out of phase.

                        I built a three phase SSG a while ago which had high rpm and good torque. But unfortunately it was so loud that I received multiple complaints from my neibours about running it at night, which made proper testing inconvenient so I was forced to abandon it I am now using its coils in my oscillator but I still have the frame work which I will use at a later date (moving house to escape the neibours ) for experimenting with the adam's motor.

                        here are some pics







                        On a rotor the size of yours, you could easily fit many more coils around it out of phase. Each will need it's own trigger circuit so each coil fires independantly.

                        One issue I had with a rotor as small as mine was that the coils were so close together that they would trigger the coil next to it when they energised. I got around that by adding inductors in the trigger circuit to smooth out the signal. This also significantly reduces amp draw in standard ssg configurations.

                        A bike wheel rotor shouldn't have that problem since you will have plenty of space to place the coils.

                        Also, if you want as much torque for as little current as possible, I would recommend using 2 stage inductance as I discussed here

                        http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-monopole.html

                        this will let you use the flyback current to produce more mechanical work for less input by reducing the pulse width.

                        I believe a combination of all these elements would produce a high rpm, high torque motor for minimum input current.
                        Sephiroth
                        I find your "out of phase" idea very interesting. I'm wondering, when you say about each coil needing a trigger wire, does that mean three different output batteries or can the outputs all go to one battery? Also do all three circuits get power from a single primary battery? Hope this question makes sense.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Each coil needs 2 wires, one for a trigger and one for power. You could have 3 input and 3 output batteries or all coils could be hooked up to 1 input and 1 output battery

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sawt2 View Post
                            Sephiroth
                            I find your "out of phase" idea very interesting. I'm wondering, when you say about each coil needing a trigger wire, does that mean three different output batteries or can the outputs all go to one battery? Also do all three circuits get power from a single primary battery? Hope this question makes sense.
                            All the outputs can go to one battery though in the motor shown above I was using three batteries, one for each coil and the output of each coil is charging the battery powering the coil next to it. I started messing with out of phase coils so that I could send a radiant pulse from one coil into another battery in between the times when that battery wasn't powering a coil. Depending on the configuration I could change what point the radiant pulse was sent to the charging battery. The scope shot is taken across one of the battery's terminals and you can see a radiant pulse hitting the battery just before that battery begins powering another coil. I found this is only possible if the coils are using two stage inductance so you can decrease the duration of the charging pulse.

                            @baroutologos

                            I'm not sure why your rotor is that slow though I few things come to mind.

                            Your rotor is alot larger than ones I normally work with.

                            The circumferance of the rotors I normally work with are around 15" though your rotor is 30" so I would expect half the rpm on your rotor compared to a smaller one.

                            Also, I would normally use 6 magnets on a 5" rotor though your rotor is double that size and uses the same number of magnets so that is probably also a contributing factor.

                            But I think the problem is mainly down to two things. First of all you are using neo magnets. These will produce large amounts of back emf which will put drag on the rotor. Neo magnets will give you more torque, but actually REDUCES top rpm because of the extra drag. The second problem (which is really a result of the neo magents as well) will be the number of turns on your coils. The more turns you use, the LOWER the rpm, again because of the increased back emf. Torque and top rpm do not go hand in hand.

                            I would try switching to 12 x 2cm ceramic magnets. That should increase the rpm, and with the increased number of magnets it should still have good torque compared to your neos.

                            With all three coils the motor above could easily go over 5000 rpm.

                            With one coil I would expect it to be around 2500rpm.
                            "Theory guides. Experiment decides."

                            I do not think there is any thrill that can go through the human heart like that felt by the inventor as he sees some creation of the brain unfolding to success... Such emotions make a man forget food, sleep, friends, love, everything.
                            Nikola Tesla

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks Sheph for all, but i am done with SSG as motor or anything else.

                              SSG in my view is a starting point in these "technologies" and has not the potential in demostrationing any OU.


                              Regards,
                              Baroutologos

                              ps: I use ferrites magnets. Neos are for the FEG part. All rpm measures are without any load.

                              Comment

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