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Back EMF vs. Collapsing Magnetic Field Spike

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  • Bob Smith
    replied
    Originally posted by darediamond View Post
    I am using one wire technology of Avramenko Plug to harvest Inductive kickback or back e.m.f in motionless setup. my unit uses 10W and it is generating 120W+!! This is not the regular way of harvesting back emf of Inductive K.B though because it involves attaining coil resonance which is a must.

    The is one other thing that bit involves which I can not share here. To get good just from back emf, use extremely lengthy thick gauge of coated copper wire to make your coil and pulse it at it resonce frequency to turn the coil resistance to Zero!! That is one of the 4 secrets!. You need no high voltage input to the coil. 10Vdc or 36V is okay. Use High capacitance and voltage DC caps in your A.V.Plug to multiply to current and voltage and step it down into a stepdown transformer. Good luck!
    Great tips, darediamond. Thank you very much for sharing.
    Bob

    Leave a comment:


  • darediamond
    replied
    Originally posted by Aaron View Post
    Hi Everyone,

    This does come up time to time and it isn't a matter of semantics. Back EMF simply is not the spike that you get from a coil when the field collapses.

    You charge a coil - lenz's law describes the counter current or back emf that opposes the forward current and resists the forward current's ability to bring the coil's charge up...

    Once the coil is charged and you disconnect power, the spike you get back is the "inductive spike" or "transient spike."

    You can see Lenz's law here:
    Faraday's Law
    It is at the bottom.

    Look at this nice simple answer:
    WikiAnswers - What is the formula for transient spike computation in an inductive load

    "E=I x R. The inductive spike occurs as the circuit is opened. The collapsing magnetic field causes the inductor to become the source of the circuit. For example consider a circuit consisting of a 10 volt battery, a 10 mh inductor, and a 10 ohm resistor all in series. With the switch closed, 1 amp will flow through the circuit (after 5 mS). The 5 mS is the time it takes the current to rise from 0 to 1 amp. This is given by the formual TC=L/R where TC is the time constant in seconds, L is the inductance in henries, and R is the resistance in ohms. It takes 5 time constants for the current to reach the maximum current which is determined by I=E/R (Ohm's Law). The delay is caused by the counter EMF generated in the coil as flux lines cut through adjacent turns of the inductor. After 5 time constants, the current is at 1 amp. When we open the switch, it will take 5 time constants for the current to drop to 0 amps. However, this will not be 5 mS because the resistance is now much larger do to the opening switch contacts. The voltage across the switch contacts will be whatever is necessary to maintain the current flow for the 5 time constants. After one time constant, the current will have dropped to 32% of the maximum current or in this case, 0.32 amps. If the resistance of the switch gap is 1 megohm, the the voltage will be 320,000 volts. More than enough to ionize the air and create a conductive path. If we assume an average resistance of 1 megohm, it will take 50 nS for the current to drop to 0. Of course during this time, the switch contact gets zapped. Placing a diode across the inductor such that the diode is reverse biased with the switch closed will give the current an alternate path as the polarity of the inductor reverses when the magnetic field collapses and the inductor becomes the source. This lowers the voltage from 1,000,000 volts to 0.7 volts. The downside is that the time it takes for the current decrease increases bo the ratio of 1,000,000/0.7. In a relay, this may cause the relay to "chatter" when opening. Adding a zener diode in series anode to anode with the spike suppressing diode will alleivate most chattering problems. A 34.3 volt zener will raise the voltage from 0,7v to 35v and shorten the time by a factor of 50 (35/.0.7). "

    So you can see that it takes 5ms to charge the coil because the back emf opposes the forward current...that is the delay of charging the coil...the back emf.

    You can see it takes 50ns to go back to 0. Why so fast? There is no more back emf opposing anything.

    I don't agree that the calculation of the spike is as straight forward as this because other things come into play with sharp gradients.

    But you can clearly see the back emf is NOT the spike that comes back. The spikes we are capturing and putting to use is the "inductive spike" or "transient spike" and I believe it does matter what it is called because there are very specific names for these very specific well-known events that have been established for a really long time.

    People experimenting with the free energy stuff won't have much credibility in the general world of science calling the spike back emf.

    They can believe what the want, that is fine but it is simply ample evidence for them to show that people in this "free energy" field don't even know what they're talking about and they would be correct. Let's not give them any ammunition. If they see that we do know the difference, it is just less resistance (back emf) that we have to work against in getting this stuff out there. It really is an inductive spike or transient spike and the back emf is already gone.
    I am using one wire technology of Avramenko Plug to harvest Inductive kickback or back e.m.f in motionless setup. my unit uses 10W and it is generating 120W+!! This is not the regular way of harvesting back emf of Inductive K.B though because it involves attaining coil resonance which is a must.

    The is one other thing that bit involves which I can not share here. To get good just from back emf, use extremely lengthy thick gauge of coated copper wire to make your coil and pulse it at it resonce frequency to turn the coil resistance to Zero!! That is one of the 4 secrets!. You need no high voltage input to the coil. 10Vdc or 36V is okay. Use High capacitance and voltage DC caps in your A.V.Plug to multiply to current and voltage and step it down into a stepdown transformer. Good luck!

    Leave a comment:


  • boguslaw
    replied
    Inductive spike, how is it called when it's send forward ? Like in Tesla coil ?

    Leave a comment:


  • miltontr
    replied
    Date corrected, thank you Sir. --Milton

    Leave a comment:


  • DilJalaay
    replied
    Lol

    Originally posted by miltontr View Post
    Hi All,

    I wrote a white paper a few years back which I recently updated. The topic is the same being discussed and written from the perspective of Aaron's thinking. It's not very technical but hopefully it's helpful.

    (white-paper attached)

    Regards
    miltontr
    LOL,
    Your attached Doc shows the date of May,08,2012.
    Any way am gona read it.. will

    Regs,
    D.J

    Leave a comment:


  • Aaron
    replied
    defeating the skepticlowns once again

    Thank you for posting that miltontr!

    I read over it briefly and will have some other look over it - it is late and I have to get to bed.

    This concept is widely unknown by the masses and many self-proclaimed experts think they understand it as well.

    For example - Milehigh from Quebec and Poynt99 a Canadian Mountie posted way back in the Ainslie discussion threads something that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the conventionally minded "experts" have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

    They claimed for example that because an inductive resistor (wire wound resistor made of nichrome wire in an ohmite resistor for example) is a resistor, that it will dissipate 100% of everything put into it.

    Under normal circumstances such as a common resistive heating element, they are 100% efficient because they "burn" 100% of the watts that goes into them, which turns into heat - in that case they would be correct. And that is what we want in a resistive heating element.

    However, they believe, and this is evidenced by their claims that are public record in that closed and locked thread, that in the inductive resistors, they will also burn 100% of anything that goes into them so there is nothing left.

    All the evidence shows that Milehigh and Poynt99 are 100% wrong in their beliefs and analysis of reality. Basically, this means they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about and this applies to just about every pseudoskeptic out there, which are otherwise known as skepticlowns.

    The fact is this - you charge a wirewound resistor and there is some dissipation, which causes heat. But, when you turn the power off, the magnetic field collapses in that wirewound (inductive) resistor and you get a spike back. THE MAGNETIC FIELD AND ENERGY DISSIPATED ARE INDEPENDENT OF EACH OTHER! They are not tied together.

    Without even having to go into overunity, over 1.0 cop, etc... that simple fact in and of itself defeats the bogus arguments by amateur "skeptics" that you can't get anything back when you power an inductive resistor. If so, then how was I getting over 1000v spikes coming back from that resistor in addition to some recharging in the front battery since the mosfet shuttles the spike back to the front from the intrinsic "free wheeling diode", etc...

    What this shows is that the "skeptics" have no idea what an inductor or electromagnetic coil are, they have no idea what they do and how they operate, and they have no idea of any of the real principles that are in effect when we are powering these devices.

    It is completely ironic that those that claims that these perspectives are from crackpots are actually the biggest crackpots of them all!

    Leave a comment:


  • miltontr
    replied
    One possible explaination...

    Hi All,

    I wrote a white paper a few years back which I recently updated. The topic is the same being discussed and written from the perspective of Aaron's thinking. It's not very technical but hopefully it's helpful.

    (white-paper attached)

    Regards
    miltontr

    (3/9/2012 - Date on white-paper corrected)
    Attached Files
    Last edited by miltontr; 03-09-2012, 06:00 PM. Reason: Bad date on the Transients white paper attachment.

    Leave a comment:


  • antigraviticsystems1
    replied


    Uploaded with ImageShack.us YouTube - ‪prueba campo magnetico rotatorio 2.MOV‬‏
    Last edited by antigraviticsystems1; 06-03-2011, 05:39 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jbignes5
    replied
    I have to agree with Aaron here.

    Originally posted by Aaron View Post
    There is discussion on the spike in the thread "Ongoing".

    The Bemf is a much different beast then the inductive spike. The bemf is countering the emf because of reflective induction. That comes from the design of the coil you use. Lets say bifilar wound as apposed to regular methods.

    The spike is another event all together. The inductive spike is a response to the field collapse. As the field collapses it drags along with it natural energy from the outer reaches of that field. As we all know when you shrink down something like a balloon it's surface area shrinks as well. Lets say that as the balloon shrinks the amount of energy is amplified by the time it hits the coil and then gets induced into the coil because of the constricting field boundries. Tesla noticed the same thing as he was using two same mass electrodes to keep his transformer balanced but changed the surface area of the electrodes. If the polarity was right, the electrode with less surface area formed a more intense field effect then was thrown off of the large surface area one. It almost acted like it was amplified and in fact I believe thats the case.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aaron
    replied
    "Ongoing" thread

    There is discussion on the spike in the thread "Ongoing".

    Leave a comment:


  • plengo
    replied
    @Aaron's

    great topic. Where you are discussing this Spike Induction in further details, please?

    Fausto.

    Leave a comment:


  • crackahcrackah
    replied
    Originally posted by Aaron View Post
    Back emf is still DURING the application of power.
    Inductive spike is AFTER removing power.

    The meaning is also self apparent in the words.

    Inductive SPIKE - this is obviously when you take
    aware the power.

    BACK emf, this opposes the forward current and
    the back emf is not a spike. It holds back and
    limits the forward current, which an inductive spike
    is NOT doing.
    You can lead a horse to water...BTW thanks for reinforcing what Peter Lindemann demonstrated in his video on the secrets of the electric motor. A lack of reinforcement simply results in confusion on the issue.


    While I'm at it, does any one have any links to sites where large scale, say...fork lift motor sized motors, have been constructed by DIYers? I doubt it's feasible but the price of those things really restricts options...

    Leave a comment:


  • Aaron
    replied
    not the same

    Back emf is still DURING the application of power.
    Inductive spike is AFTER removing power.

    The meaning is also self apparent in the words.

    Inductive SPIKE - this is obviously when you take
    aware the power.

    BACK emf, this opposes the forward current and
    the back emf is not a spike. It holds back and
    limits the forward current, which an inductive spike
    is NOT doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • kaosad
    replied
    Originally posted by Aaron View Post
    You're free to believe what you want.

    Back EMF voltage is ALWAYS LOWER than the source voltage. Not
    higher such as the spike. They are not the same.

    Back EMF is there DURING THE POWERING OF THE LOAD.
    The INDUCTIVE SPIKE is there AFTER POWER IS REMOVED.

    Please do your research. There is plenty here.
    It does not matter how great the resulting voltage is, the most important thing is that they both appear due to the effect of countering the contraction of magnetic field in the coil (directly or indirectly). They boil down to the same equation which governs the voltage measured, i.e.,

    v = - N dO/dt (Faraday's law of induction),
    where O is the magnetic flux, N is number of turns, t is time and v is back EMF.

    (Note that I mentioned they boil down to the same equation, however they can appear in different form of equations. It is just a matter of derivation to convince yourself that they are the same.)

    Whether you see the induced voltage high or low basically is due to the initial conditions of your electronic components that form the connected circuit. This is under your control, if you have the knowledge. For example you can make the inductive spike be merely over 0.7V in the first few cycles, by just placing a very large and fully discharged capacitor connected in series with silicon diode as in the famous SSG circuit.

    As like what you have observed, the back-EMF appears during or after powering of load. This is just a matter of how you generate it, as what I have said in my first post. The phenomena is still explainable through Faraday's law of induction -- nothing surprising about that.
    Last edited by kaosad; 09-21-2010, 09:07 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Aaron
    replied
    back emf and inductive spike completely different

    Originally posted by kaosad View Post
    Inductive spike or back EMF or counter EMF, they are all the same thing. The only difference is how the EMFs are generated.
    You're free to believe what you want.

    Back EMF voltage is ALWAYS LOWER than the source voltage. Not
    higher such as the spike. They are not the same.

    Back EMF is there DURING THE POWERING OF THE LOAD.
    The INDUCTIVE SPIKE is there AFTER POWER IS REMOVED.

    Please do your research. There is plenty here.

    Leave a comment:

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