Splitting The Positive

[yaro1776]

Hey Bro M,

Some switching info for you from James MacDonald (posting problems?) in the following:

I wanted to post some information that Bro Mikey is looking for.

It appears that the company called Blue Sea Systems makes Lead Acid battery switches which can be wired up to a few batteries to switch them In and Out of the charging circuit. They have Isolators that allow 1 battery to run the engine while another battery runs the boat electronics. They also have automatic switching for charging a battery or manual switching for adding Battery 1 and 2 to the charging circuit. The products are not cheap but they will get the job done he wants to do. I just wanted to be able to post. Maybe you can send him the information. A combination of the two below or just one of them would help in making battery switching in and out easier.


https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...lue+sea+system


https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Syst...lue+sea+system

Happy switching,
Yaro

[BroMikey]

Hey Bro M,

Some switching info for you from James MacDonald (posting problems?) in the following:

I wanted to post some information that Bro Mikey is looking for.

Maybe you can send him the information. A combination of the two below or just one of them would help in making battery switching in and out easier.



Happy switching,
Yaro

Thanks Yaro

Good to know what can be purchased across the counter.

Also look at my updated graphs above.

[BroMikey]

This split positive battery system I built has past the equal
mark hrs ago. After 9hrs plus the light is burning along and my batteries voltages are far from 3.25v which is considered a dead battery.
The conventional system killed the battery in 5.5hrs extracting
22,000 joules to keep the light going. Now after 9 hrs of run time
I have recovered or recirculated some energy and the joule count
is over 24,000 J with no end in sight.

Battery A = 3.48v
Battery B = 3.62v
Battery C = 3.82v

It;s-a-lookin pretty dern good from over here.

See updated graphs above.


...

[BroMikey]

Hey Dave

I will listen to the best of my ability to understand what Bob
is saying. To split the positive without a capacitor or battery
might be done by creating a potential difference using say motor
coils that would require some form of rectification.

After rectification there is a positive and a negative.

That is what I needed, I been trying to go beyond this present
circuit to apply it to other things, this answers my question.

Keep at those exotic motors with magnets.

[bistander]

Test question

See the previous chart

This chart is bigger so the curve may be seen with
greater ease. 270 minutes into the C20 discharge for
Lithium ION batteries.

The graph has been expanded with a 1 volt area of 3 to 4 volts.
Also notice the ever dropping current from over 400ma on
start up until now at less than 300ma the run in progress.

Hi there,

Good to see you posting data. I assume these results are from this set up:

[/SIZE]


And where you calculated 22,960J. And ran for 5.5 hours. However you were attempting a C20 discharge. You were running a bit higher current, so maybe it was more like a C15. But that means you should have run for 15 hours, not 5.5. Something is very wrong with that test. Perhaps the cells were not fully charged.

I think if you want to use that as a baseline, you need to explain the discrepancy or repeat the test.

Thanks,

bi

[BroMikey]

hello Bitstander

Yes I agree that the C20 and C15 or the C10 rates do
not seem to apply with these Lithium ion batteries.

This is my first test ever with this kind of battery.

Also Lithium ion batteries are not generally charged by
such low rates like 100ma so I really am at a loss to
apply any such standards as we do with lead acid wet cells.

However I have concluded that each time I charge these
batteries I get a certain voltage for a full charge at about
4 volts after 20 minutes.

During my recirculating split positive runs I speculated
that since as little as 60ma was being returned at the end
that these batteries eventually ran down.

Also I have concluded that if I let the batteries set on the
table for a day that the same amount of power is still in them
as when I had left them.

I have also concluded that I don't know much about the
charge, discharge rates or capacity for true baseline
standards for lithium ion batteries. I maybe that the 2 ah
rating on these cells is not the actual value. This would not
surprise me as lead/acid batteries are regularly only good
for 60 percent of their joule count.

Whatever the joule count is splitting the positive is not suppose
to care. The claim is that energy is recirculated back to
battery C while running loads off of the elevated potential
difference from series batteries B & C.

I have concluded that the system does recirculate energy.

I have concluded so far with test #1 that these batteries charge
up to 4.2volts and discharge to 3.2volts as specified by the
manufacturer of these batteries.

I will have to re-figure the real amp hour ratings and their "C"
rate that is probably designed for a C5, you are right., but then
I am not sure yet about Lithium ion batteries.

This leads us to consider the possibility that internal resistance
from loading batteries at a great rate might waste some power.

Based on my observations in this simple split positive first
run I can get more energy out of this set up with the same
batteries. And it looks like I just got 50 percent more before
the system went dead.

Whatever the joule count is suppose to be the claim is that
all power can be recirculated and if correctly done will result
in a circuit that runs loads for free.

My test of course is inconclusive, so a self runner is out, THUS FAR!!

This testing has finished and I will be back with a joule count.

This document says C2 and C1 rates apply


http://powerelectronics.com/site-fil...g/504PET23.pdf


So I don't know what I am doing with these batteries. Yeah these
batteries were a poor choice.
............

[BroMikey]

I have been reading all comments and the one about
limiting charge current to the charge battery is a good
one.

Let me give the joule count for this latest experiment.

See setups in charts above.

Conventional mode = 22,100 Joules

Split Positive mode = 29,900 Joules

So we can see a huge difference in available joules to
light a bulb even with my crumby quick setup not very
well thought out. I couldn't wait, had to get my feet wet
you understand.


This experiment has shown me that the principle splitting
the positive offers extra power right away. However in my
build the batteries are unknown to me or I am in unfamiliar
territory by using them. Probably the miliamp usage is to high
and the charge battery is constantly over charging and burning
up energy as the max has already been reached.

I remember now watching the charge battery over charge for
several 30 minute periods where no increase in voltage occurred.

I have some bigger batteries. And that Matt
motor/switch in the works.

[Aaron]

3 battery splitting the positive basic

Battery voltage must reach 12.6v in the 3 battery series line up with each of the three batteries needing to top out at 4.2v.

BroMikey,

You're doing some great work here and I hope you keep posting your results.

What was the highest voltage batt 3 (single reversed batt) went to when it didn't climb any higher?

Lithium lifepo4 and lithium ions (usually cobalt based) are constant voltage batteries and not constant current batteries (like lead acids) so although they can show a higher voltage for longer, it can be deceiving to see a voltage last so long.

However, with that said, you are right about joules vs joules so whether it is a constant voltage or constant current battery, work is work from a certain voltage down to a certain voltage and that is what you want.

The Peukert Effect doesn't apply that much to lithium batteries like they do with lead acids. A lead acid 20 hour discharge will give you a certain amps discharge for 20 hours. At a 10 hour discharge, it will be 90% of that and at a 5 hour discharge, which is the most any lead acid deep cycle should be discharged at will be about 80% of the 20 hour discharge. So with lithium batts, this effect is supposed to be non existent so whether you discharge a lithium at a 20 hour rate or 5 hour rate, you should still have the full capacity.

If this is the case, then a 1 or 2 hour discharge rate should be an honest test with your little lithiums and won't take too long before you have to rotate them.

With your conventional discharge chart - 6000ma you're showing 300ma for 20 hours. If there is no Peukert effect, you should be able to hammer them with a 1 or 2 hour discharge rate and get the full real capacity.

6000ma for 2 hours is 3 amps * 3.x volts = about 10 watts. It would be a good test with all 3 batts charged and discharged at a 1 or 2 hour rate to see if you get the same as the 20 hour rate. If so, you validate the claim that lithiums have no Peukert effect and therefore, you can accelerate all your tests with multiple rotations in one day.

Do you have a factory charger for the batts that charges them up and a green light comes on when they're done? If so, what voltage are they at when they're supposed to get done?

Also, if you charge it conventionally and then discharge it at x hour rating, what voltage does the battery drop to when you get 100% of the rated amp hour capacity? If you know that number, then charge all 3 batts with a conventional charger until they're full. Then discharge one battery until you get 100% of the ah rating and it is considered dead. Put that battery in position #3 and have 1 & 2 in series and run the 3 battery test to calculate how many joules you windup getting until they're all dead. Starting with 2 full charged batts and one fully discharged, you should not be able to get more than 4ah's of capacity at the 3.x volt range until all 3 are dead.

This is the old original concept and has nothing to do with pulsing, recovery, anything other than just the simple basic 3 battery schematic John had posted for ages.

I may have missed something here, but just wanted to get a few clarifications.

[BroMikey]

Wow that is great to know, keep me filled in on your
past interactions with John B.


Yes I have and do use conventional chargers and did
use a conventional charger and they went up in 2 hours or
three was it? I was watching a show and charging so then
the battery voltage was 4.2volts.

This is where lithium batteries slow way down and stop.

Yes battery 3 should be somewhat lower or over charging
takes place right away. I see that now.

And I see what you mean on discharging battery 3 and using
battery 1 & 2 to run a charge on them.

Let me think and I want to add these joules again to see
what I ended up with

Thanks Aaron, keep up the great work and I am looking
forward to your new video's in July.

[BroMikey]

Okay here is the deal, somedays I can't see the forest for the
trees because I had to collect data every 30 minutes for two
days till I could not see straight. Now that the smoke has cleared
and you guys have chimed in I am getting things corrected such
as the "C" rate, I have fixed the error now so it reads C5 rate.

In fact I was almost delirious those 2 days over the weekend and
sitting around doing data collection in the AC was all I was good for
after spending several days out in the 108 index

Thanks to Bistander also. What you said was so true. I have these
batteries of unknown capacity and saw a G2 number on them and
figured they were standard 2 ah Lithium. But they must be 1ah
and I am only getting 600mah out of 1. Some of these batteries
are lower rated.

Like Bistander said "SOMETHING IS BAD WRONG" that was forsure
as it turns out for capacity 3 of these paralleled batteries only
rang up to 1.6ah altogether so that is very low. Then I charged
them up again (With a regulated supply on an amp meter moving the
dial every 10-20 minute til full) and did the split pos.....thing.

Thanks for the heads up guys, I really goofed. I'll figure it
all up again now that the data is in.

I just knew something was wrong and now I can get my act
straight.

.............



...............


PS the sony batteries are US17670GR and some say 1200mah and now I see these are not my new batteries, Oops
and others say 1400mah

[bistander]

Lithium cells

hello Bitstander

Yes I agree that the C20 and C15 or the C10 rates do
not seem to apply with these Lithium ion batteries.

This is my first test ever with this kind of battery.

As Aaron mentioned, Peukert doesn't really apply to Lithium ion cells. So for a 2C, 1C, C/5 or C/20 charge or discharge, Ampere-hours will be the same. For very high rates, > 25C, that will change. But at reasonable currents, you can pretty much count on C Ah for a good fully charged cell.

And Lithium ion is nearly 100% for Coulombic efficiency; like 99.98% or thereabouts. So if your methods are good, you can count Ah in and get the same Ah out of a cell assuming you start and end at the same state of charge (SOC). And SOC can be fairly accurately determined from the cell's open circuit voltage.

I assume you were using the 18650 cells, 18mm dia × 65mm long. Those are common and cheap. Here is a link to an inexpensive charger/discharger (<$20) which should be able to characterize cells for you. Take some precautions when charging Lithium as severely overcharged cells can overheat and possibly ignite.

I think these Lithium cells would make excellent subjects for your tests. They should eliminate a lot of ambiguity you find dealing with lead-acid.

bi

IMAX B6 DC Charger 5A 50W (Copy)

[BroMikey]

As Aaron mentioned, Peukert doesn't really apply to Lithium ion cells.
I think these Lithium cells would make excellent subjects for your tests. They should eliminate a lot of ambiguity you find dealing with lead-acid.

[/url]

ambiguity? I.m not sure either? Yes it is true we get
anomalies with lead/acid but I think all batteries do that don't they?

For instants I told you all I grabbed the wrong batteries (and yes these
batteries are the standard cheap batteries you mentioned) so I think
maybe they have sulfates on the plates mates.

I gottem on the Bedini right now in spkie mode way way down low
for the day. I built several of these SG OSC boxes ranging sizes
and I wouldn't trade these for my right hand.

Thanks for the information on Lithium-ion and the effects of speed
charging. Yeah I figure that the way these things zap up right away
with no heat. Yes I do understand your comments on heat and over
charging Lithium ion batteries. This has been all over the web for
years now that they could EXPLODE and so because of those
entries I have always wondered if I could blow one up.

But I am to smart for that. I hate poison. I was even thinking use
a rewound cordless drill motor cage to rewind like Matt does
with his big one to see what effects that and a tiny booster
might do. Who knows maybe I'll get time.

[bistander]

For instants I told you all I grabbed the wrong batteries (and yes these
batteries are the standard cheap batteries you mentioned) so I think
maybe they have sulfates on the plates mates.

I don't think you'll find any sulfur in those Lithium cells. And not all 18650 cells are cheap. Tesla uses that size cell in their EVs by the tens of thousands. Top quality. And you pay for it.

I've never seen any evidence that pulsing has any benefit on Lithium batteries whatever.

[BroMikey]

I don't think you'll find any sulfur in those Lithium cells. And not all 18650 cells are cheap. Tesla uses that size cell in their EVs by the tens of thousands. Top quality. And you pay for it.

I've never seen any evidence that pulsing has any benefit on Lithium batteries whatever.

Humm interesting facts I think I paid $4 each you are
right about the price they are pricey by some people's standard's

Here is a diagram of Matt's setup.

We are charging and discharging the battery at the same time.

[Aaron]

lithium batteries

This kind of small 3.2v lifepo4 battery is safer than the typical lithium batts. https://www.amazon.com/3-2v-LiFePO4-...g=maimounas-20

You can probably find those cheaper, that was just a quick search - but they are generally still super expensive.

One of the primary benefits of using the lithium batts is the ultra low impedance compared to lead acids. We saw this with the big cell phone tower battery banks. Ultra low impedance to a radiant spike allows one to greatly exploit the gains. With one test where Peter charged the big bank with the 10 coiler way back, the battery bank was able to deliver almost 10 times what went into it. That was the single biggest gain I ever saw on a lead acid battery bank.

However, on smaller lead acids, although the impedance is fairly low, it is actually huge compared to the large cell phone tower battery bank and that is why so many people will never see the gain in the battery alone coupled with the fact that most people never have a high enough frequency of charge/discharge cycles.

Paul Babcock has a 24v lifepo4 setup for his SG and he can stairstep them up with real capacity and not just voltage. It is our speculation that it is the low impedance of the lifepo4 batts because of the cell tower bank results. He charges them with spikes and supposedly they don't like spikes but it is amazing how well they respond. Some builders in Energy Science Forum tried the lifepo4's and did not get the results that Babcock did. He is using 24v and I think they're using 12v so not sure how much difference there will be because of that but the resistive loss percentage is less going with higher voltage.