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  • bistander
    replied
    Claims

    Originally posted by BroMikey View Post
    Originally posted by bistander View Post
    You're wrong. Show me the 1800 watt output with 300 watt input generator.
    No, No motor mouth, show me anything. You keep repeating, table
    turning riddles. Show something and stop boasting about nothing.

    Everybody has motor experience. Show us.

    Turion Man is da man and he don't just flap his jaw, he shows his stuff
    around. He is one of the few men who actual had an idea and has shown
    his working unit. Today it works, not someday.

    Where is yours? Did you go over the instructional data? No? Still repeating?
    Repeating old slogans? Hummm..?
    He made the claim. He has never shown a working unit of the 1800 watt output/300 watt input machine.

    I made no claim. What am I supposed to show? Something that doesn't work?

    You claimed that the magnet repelled the steel. Show us that. That's what started this episode.

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Cogging vs drag

    Originally posted by Sawt2 View Post
    Magnetic drag is not cogging. Show me a reputable source which says it is.

    Could someone please explain the difference ?
    Hi Sawt2,

    Cogging is strictly due to magnets and iron (core). Magnetic drag can be caused by both magnets/iron and magnets/iron/electromagnets.

    Cogging is due to the tendency of the rotor magnet to align with the core projection (as the iron in the center of the coil). That tendency acts in the direction of rotation on one side of TDC and against rotation direction on the opposite side of TDC. So the equal magnitude but opposite tendencies (or torque) cancel when looking at average torque (or current) input or output. However cogging will be present and represent torque ripple which is most noticeable at low RPM.

    Magnetic drag, on the other hand, always opposes rotation and becomes greater as RPM increases. It is due to core loss, ie. Eddy currents and hysteresis. For motors and generators, magnetic drag is a loss mechanism. Magnetic drag is purposely used in applications like commercial magnetic brakes and clutches. Cogging is not.

    There is much literature on the subjects. I encourage you, or anyone to look at it.

    https://www.designworldonline.com/th...agnetic-brake/

    Regards,

    bi
    Last edited by bistander; 11-12-2018, 03:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Iamnuts
    replied
    Problems in the real world.

    As Coreless Dc Motors usually can reach very high rpms and has a compact structure, these motors can heat quickly. Especially when running at full load for a short time. So it is usually advised to use a cooling system with these motors. Overheating can be an important problem specially for Coreless Micro Dc Motors. So a disadvantage of a coreless motor is, it cannot handle overloads when compared to a cored motor. The bonding adhesive that holds the windings can lose its bonding character and the motor will be broken.

    What use is a broken motor?

    Leave a comment:


  • Iamnuts
    replied
    There ya go.

    http://www.koshindenki.com/img/file/...vr_R3a_Std.pdf

    Leave a comment:


  • Iamnuts
    replied
    Coil free.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque

    Leave a comment:


  • Iamnuts
    replied
    Oh what a bind!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_brake

    Leave a comment:


  • Sawt2
    replied
    Magnetic drag is not cogging. Show me a reputable source which says it is.

    Could someone please explain the difference ?

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by bistander View Post

    You can't back up your statement so you change the subject to me,
    or to coils, neither of which are relevant to cogging.
    What is relevant is that you don't understand how motors operate
    today and for the past 100 plus years. That is what you have shown
    the group.

    The important data of the repealing forces is very important and you
    have ignored the standard definitions while quoting the dictionary
    riddles. You and the classical thinker are wrong or confused.

    The reason you can't think for yourself is that you went to govt run
    schools and tho some did also go to those were able to read between
    the lines. Not you.

    The govt controlled schools of the past 100 years and the same control
    freaks who silence Tesla. Your responses have uncovered your ability
    to grasp the experiment and you can't see it. I got what I wanted from
    you.

    But you don't seem to know that. Turion is a teacher and saw this so
    is having pity for you and those who think just like you. Go back and
    read and review the information offered to you.

    Repeating will get you nowhere on this thread. All it does is gets you
    a sort of shame that brings about pity. However someone out there
    will learn from this.

    ..................

    .........................

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by bistander View Post
    You're wrong. Show me the 1800
    watt output with 300 watt input generator.
    No, No motor mouth, show me anything. You keep repeating, table
    turning riddles. Show something and stop boasting about nothing.

    Everybody has motor experience. Show us.

    Turion Man is da man and he don't just flap his jaw, he shows his stuff
    around. He is one of the few men who actual had an idea and has shown
    his working unit. Today it works, not someday.

    Where is yours? Did you go over the instructional data? No? Still repeating?
    Repeating old slogans? Hummm..?

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion
    THIS was my definition of cogging, which YOU have stated is incorrect, yet you just described it exactly the same way. You say eliminating cogging is unimportant because it goes away at high speed. I say THE AMP DRAW of the motor IS AFFECTED as long as the iron is present, there is a MAGNETIC DRAG on the motor (which is cogging sped up) therefore ELIMINATING cogging is beneficial. You don't think it is necessary because at high speeds there is no PHYSICAL affect that is VISIBLE, but there is still an amp draw from rotating the magnet past the iron core. MEASURE IT WITH AND WITHOUT an iron core present, or in the case of MY generator, with and without 12 iron cores present, and then tell me there is NO benefit to eliminating that increased amp draw. NOWHERE in any of your dictionary definitions of cogging do they discuss the increased AMP DRAW that would NOT BE THERE if the metal was not there, and which I am able to eliminate through magnetic neutralization. You continue to put down something you don't know a single thing about and insist that WE need to do our homework.
    You're wrong. In most of the "dictionary definitions" you'll find it stated that cogging torque does not show in the net torque of the machine, or in other words, cogging has no affect on the net current. It's just a ripple.

    Magnetic drag is not cogging. Show me a reputable source which says it is.

    And I do know a great deal about electric machines, motors and generators. But you refuse to learn. But all this cogging and clogging is a waste of time. Show me the 1800 watt output with 300 watt input generator.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion
    Bro Mikey

    Apparently bi has permanent magnet motors that have no wires on
    the stators. No coils at all. ......... I guess

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    Coils & cores

    Originally posted by Turion
    What I am talking about is that in the kinds of motors YOU are talking about, the iron you mention is the iron of the stator that interacts with the rotating magnets on the rotor. Those stators have coils wound around them. Coils. Do you get that? coils.

    Now in the generator WE are talking about (or use it as a motor) the stator metal is the iron core of the coils. Without it, there is no generating or motoring action. So the cores of these coils are JUST as important as the iron of the stators YOU are talking about. Remove the "coils" from our machines and you remove the iron.

    So when you say the coils have NOTHING to do with it, you are about as far from correct as you can get. The iron in the core of those coils is EVERYTHING. and it is what causes the cogging. Got it? So you cannot evenDISCUSS the generator without the coils. Neither could you discuss it if it were being used as a motor.
    The coil is the copper wire. The core is the iron in the center of the coil. Those are two separate pieces or components of the generator. The coil core in your device is the same as a tooth on the stator of a more typical commercial armature (which happens to be the stator in a PM brushless generator). If you took your coils off of the cores, leaving the iron cores on your stator and turned the rotor with the magnets attached, you will getting cogging.

    Put the coils back on the cores and you still have cogging. The cogging doesn't change due to the copper coils.

    Do you ever read up on this? There is a lot of literature out there. The parts and terminology of generators are well established. Many of the home wind turbine builders use homemade generators similar to what you build.
    Last edited by bistander; 11-12-2018, 03:26 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    ????

    Originally posted by Turion
    Bro Mikey

    Apparently bi has permanent magnet motors that have no wires on the stators. No coils at all. Since he says if you have coils, or wires on the stator you have no cogging. And cogging is the magnets on the rotor reacting to the iron in the stator, which, according to him, can’t have wire on them or because that would make them coils and when you have coils it is something different and not cogging. I guess
    What are you talking about?

    You can't even learn what generator cogging is. Cogging would and does occur without the wires because it only depends on the core and magnets. Coils and wires are irrelevant to cogging. What's so difficult to understand about that?

    Leave a comment:


  • bistander
    replied
    He can only distract and confuse

    Originally posted by Turion
    Ismnuts,
    When they talk about 98%, they are talking about the motor’s ability to convert the electrical input into mechanical energy. Whoop tee do! If a motor is only 80% efficient but you can recover 60% of the power used to run it in the first place, what is the “efficiency” of the motor? It is STULL only 80%, but there is a gain in the “system.” That is what we are talking about here. You can’t look at just one part. You have to look at the system as a whole.
    Like this?

    ....
    Originally posted by Turion
    Just want to point out that my generator puts out between 1800-2000 watts while running on a STOCK electric motor that requires 240 watts input. ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Iamnuts
    replied
    My experience.

    With good quality wheelchair motors and a carefully matched load
    I reckon about the best I can get is 70%.
    Some people have the idea that designers are idiots, in bistander's
    generator info they're claiming 98%, I think that's a fantastic
    achievement.
    I'd like to see someone beat 98%,that's the challenge.
    John.

    Leave a comment:

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