Magnet motor revelation

[BroMikey]

BroMikey, it is a safe guess that you are already an expert mechanic.

For the benefit of anyone not already being an expert mechanic, a body can find non-magnetic brass and aluminum screws and bolts and nuts also at Loews.

And plastic fasteners too, but if you assume your motor might run faster than about 1.98 RPM, you should NOT rely on plastic stuff to resist the centrifugal force.


CANGAS

Hey CANMAN

I don't know what I am, just a wandering idiot is what it feels
like sometimes. I really enjoy MadMacks motor teachings even if
the information might be considered experimental only.

I will say it again that cancellation and split flux forks truly
are a great revelation for guys like me who have only just started
to wrap my head around ANY entry level premise.

My motor is on hold. MadMack has a better one coming.
I should say my second motor using the expensive materials.

[CANGAS]

UFO has shown the basics of what MadMack has said
was everything he can share about that motor that is
already patented. END OF STORY.

MadMack said that everything was PRIOR ART. A design can become prior art other ways than already being patented. It can consist of components that have all been very well known for a long time. The combination could be considered a new design and possibly patentable. The combination may have rattled some spook's cage. MM might be under a gag order NDA instituted by the NSA or other MIBs.

MadMack; Is your New Design simply an alternative that will safely be outside the other's NDA?


CANGAS

[CANGAS]

Yes I was thinking that my ceramic motor magnets are 10X weaker than

my neos and what looks like cogging with neo's does not seem to look

like cogging with ceramic, but it is. It is just weaker so it just seems

better but like you say what about acceleration?

Great progress. Mack did say that square magnets are his choice.

Also I keep thinking about the mapping Howard J. did and how

complex his measurements were. Howy had visualization tools

no less. The reason I bring this up is the pole reversal that is going

on in these motors. As the magnets swing past one another many

field changes take place.


Mack said he thought of his magnets and their poles as they would

go past one another as getting stronger as the approach to the center

line (THE STRONGEST POINT) then diminishing or lowering in push or

pull.

Since attraction and repulsion are not equal, one being stronger, then

it also stands to reason that the field lines will be of a slightly different

shape.

This unequal set of forces might be balances in many ways.

For all practical purposes we can say 180 degrees across from the

attractive field is the repulsion but this is what we can not see.

We can not see that each magnet centerline may be off center by

several thousandths of an inch or mm.

This thought causes me to make my magnet holder adjustable in

both X & Y axes. The picture I have shown is only my first brain

storm and is rapidly evolving into a combination of threaded

adjusters.

Like I said I have wanted to do this one for years and years.

Now I can go ahead and finally scratch this itch.


Also on another design construction note. I am digging up my SS screws

that are non magnetic in case my build might throw off the forces using

iron screws.

The grain oriented metals for ramps is also very important.

Also on another design construction note. I am digging up my SS screws

that are non magnetic in case my build might throw off the forces using

iron screws.

BroMikey, it is a safe guess that you are already an expert mechanic.

For the benefit of anyone not already being an expert mechanic, a body can find non-magnetic brass and aluminum screws and bolts and nuts also at Loews.

And plastic fasteners too, but if you assume yo motor might run faster than about 1.98 RPM, you should NOT rely on plastic stuff to resist the centrifugal force.


CANGAS

[BroMikey]

There is no right or wrong way to do this so this thread
becomes a train wreck. You must stick with the progress
that has been made as some where to start. If we have
no end or beginning, no wrong way, no direction, no results
to compare with one another, we are in conflict.

Mack has been more than kind allowing anything and everything
but that is not helping us here, let's do it right.

UFO has shown the basics of what MadMack has said
was everything he can share about that motor that is
already patented. END OF STORY.

These small diagrams show working shapes for ramps
as agreed on by MACK. END OF STORY.

If you want to change this design all around start a
new thread.

END OF STORY on general shape and placement or the
orientation of the ramp and ramp angles for induction.

The only thing different about MACK's motor I see is it
uses a split flux path in the shape of a "Y" to reduce to a
minimum flux at the end of the stroke. END OF STORY.

OR we could say for this particular design "Etched IN Stone"

In other words this is the correct build for all early experimenters.

In order to have a discuss without complete and total break down
of all communications, we must agree (AND DID) on a basic
starting point.

Later aluminum shielding or copper and plastic for flux manipulation.

This message is to those who want to have a discussion with
others who use the starter design. Stick to the basis arrived
on thru endless hours of hints, questions to form this agreed
upon motor starter diagram.

Otherwise you are following total confusion. If you have assumed
none of the details offered in these diagram's hold any value for
the basic design then I would have to say that you need to reread
this entire thread.

This thread was worked on very hard in a short time to draw
these conclusions about what a MADMACK motor looks like.

Mack can't draw and he must be very careful about spilling
all of the beans but has given us a starting point.

I have used these shaped as suggested by Mack to make
a rotor magnet travel in one direction just as any magnet
motor is designed to do.

Unless you understand these basic ideas and apply them as
a first step before changing everything you are being shown
you are bringing in confusion.

Look at the ideas presented for induction ramps.

Start here and later you can cut your losses, but start
from the beginning so you have a point of reference. Using
round magnets is not an option save them for your refrigerator.

So far UFO is the only person who has shown a properly
designed starter module. No one else has a single module
yet using the proper material, including me.

MACK recently chimed in and discontinued this design for
beginners in favor of his coming new design in the next few months.

Stay tuned. Remember this, I have worked my azz off trying
to arrive at this design over a period of months and the only
one who has worked harder than me is UFO. Hours and
hours of work and people don't even read or understand it
before they open a discussion.

I am sure someone is glad that we did. I did it for me and only
2 people on this forum acknowledged the placement of the
pieces of this puzzle as it was drawn and brought to a final
assembly.

The rest of you can do your own thing, I will correct you.

Here, let me bring you all up to speed. And as long as
I am welcome here I will defeat the divide and conquer.

[BroMikey]

If you aren't building it and trying to make it work you need to get a different hobby! LOL

Dave

You have me so confused now on which end is what I would be
wasting my time. We had already done this work Sir, it's not
like I am speaking from speculation and as far as you becoming
ashamed of our exchange because no video proof shows
real hands on, I think we are doing just fine.

The other end? No, No you are incorrect, but I see you are out
of time and think that talking is worthless, so i won't hold you.

When or if you get the extra time come back. Till then thanks
for everything, I know how you feel spreading yourself thin
and talking endless speculating is fruitless.

I want to see your other stuff, so get back on it and blab later.

[BroMikey]

Moving flux out of the iron with copper diluting concentration.

Copper tine tip, humm... Sounds like a plan.

It's comin round.

[BroMikey]

The only way I can see to do that is to extend the flux path by extending the steel. I know that is still exaggerated, but it shows what I am thinking. Something like the attached. Anybody else have a better idea?

Return path of copper?

Dave,
Now when the rotor magnet is pushed away give the flux in the iron a way to keep moving with the rotor magnet so it doesn't jerk it backwards like a stretched rubber band.

[lorinrandone]

I agree

You have returned. All right
But nobody not forget that his return has been caused. I do not care that this is going to start comments. Remember that you have left us in step four, and now you send us back to pas both. Nothing some detail on the North ramp. We are recomendas ferrite magnets. All right. For you and for others, I reported that during the first part with you and until last month, I've been with this engine. Long time, but I can say now that I've learned a lot.
You know why I have continued? For the same reasons presented by Dave. The effects of the ramps on magnets, were real, to a certain step. From two poles, things are complicated, and you have left when it was time to clarify why this happens. From the beginning I use copper rivets for the same reason, you can see the photos uploaded on the thread.
You are telling me that I have another design. No, it's your design. We did not start with the same stupid thing; magnets, square flow, round magnets, round flow. This is too much.
Returning to ferrite magnets, this is wasted time, and participants - there is almost no effect with ramps. I've tried everything. If you recommend a return to ferrite magnets, it means that you do not have more details about the project, or an insult. We are not your students and you are not the teacher. You started the thread, needing the support of fellow members. If you want to give more information, you start with step four. So it is normal and logical.
Do not forget, I used to communicate the translator of Google chrome. By Any inadvertence, I ask forgiveness in advance
Regard. cristian

[MadMack]

Dave,

Now when the rotor magnet is pushed away give the flux in the iron a way to keep moving with the rotor magnet so it doesn't jerk it backwards like a stretched rubber band.

[BroMikey]

Take a piece of iron or steel and a magnet on a rotor. At what point does the magnet want to "stop" on the length of the steel piece if it is bent so that it follows the curve of the rotor? MARK THAT SPOT.

Exactly, and then we had other entries. But to address your
question for me, mine would stop at the center of the mass
also the closest point.

We discussed laminating iron with plastic as one form of augmentation
to manipulate the flux paths. And since the goal of rerouting these
energies is to use the iron as a powerful inductive force we need to
always be mindful of our need for releasing the rotor magnet
from it's grip on the ramps, thus a "Y" tine formation as a first step.

As we have heard, it is the smallest of forces we should not
overlook so the "Y" or splitting of flux might be further improved
by a variety of composite ramp designs. As I singled out plastic
where the lamination might be a sort of shim on the ends of the
"Y" tines where every other piece of iron could be removed to
lower pull at the end of the stroke.

Also the tampering of tine ends. On top of that to further
lessen flux at the very end a piece of copper might absorb
energy away? DONNO

Just endless speculation without a clue.

[BroMikey]

Mike,

Don't stop if you don't want to stop.

I will stop when you tell me to stop. I am still learning
and of course as a beginner I have little experience with how these
hints add together.

Are you saying that I should stop building? That is stop building
the design you left us with before you went away last year?

I know Dave said he had an email, telling him to stop.

Does that mean you want us all to stop building the old
design? As far as copper being next to iron in an electrical
motor is common knowledge.

So I gather i am not ready to build a motor because I don't
understand how the non ferrous materials should be applied?
It's coming around.

Okay I get that. Yes I see what you are saying here.

Now let's go to your new input as of today. You say to look
at the normal motor with iron and copper. I guess I have not
looked at a normal motor in detail to apply that to other things.

I will give it some thought. Copper collects energy so in that
respect I might conclude that where the "Y" ramp tines terminate
having a great deal of energy left over, copper might be used in
the proper shape to direct that energy away from the termination
point.

That is what I get. Stopping? Yeah stop thinking I have a complete
picture of a working motor. I can live with that, til then I am not
stopping in the learning process.

I have stopped the old design because I can't dial it all in without
a highly accurate machining process and since you have stated in
the past that a motor does not require that I must assume that
my understanding of the ramps needed are incomplete.

Thanks MadMack Some would call this a "whale of a tail"
but me? I love it just the way it is. I hate being spoon fed.

[MadMack]

Mike,

Don't stop if you don't want to stop. I'm not being mysterious, those aren't hints, they are questions you should be finding the answers to if you are serious about this. The copper or aluminum could be used the same way a shunt winding is used in a single phase electric motor, to alter a magnetic field at a certain point in time. The magnets create magnetic fields in the iron and the iron attracts magnets. You have to use the interaction between the iron & magnets to provide the motive force. The only way to do that is to change the relationship between the magnets and the iron on the fly.

[BroMikey]

Okay I take MadMack's last post to mean many things
but the most important idea I see in his post is he is saying
"DON'T STOP".

I had stopped for several reasons of my own such as tooling
but stopping in favor of a new design is probably premature
for me since I have a lot of studying to do with the basics
then maybe later I can move up to the new design.

First things first.

#2 Using aluminum and copper WITH iron in ramps to control
flux. I will try to understand the direction MadMack gave in
hints coming from randy and ufo hints. This is a job for those
who have the time and determination and all of the hints
are nice at the right time but does not take the place of
real hands on.

And a more advance experimenter will not be able to relate
his knowledge to those who have not explored the stepping
stone TO advancement.


What am I saying here? It is up to each man as it always has been.
Each person must learn all of the things needed to advance so
no easy snap together model exists.



How do I know this? No one has shown a working model. Each
person must be content to spend huge amounts of time to
further their learning experience and with that out of the way
let's get on with it.

I love learning.

So hints about hint's

Okay I am back, here is what I get. Flux gating is the overall
reference with the induction of the iron, the other materials
as a means of transitioning the release of the rotor magnet
trapped in energy.

It is well known that copper does respond to a magnets in the
proper geometry. The time relationship part of MadMacks post
deals with using non ferrous metals in close proximity with
iron. This is a new doorway and will take considerable time
and effort to collect data.

What have we seen with copper? If copper is on both sides
of a magnet there is some effect, right? Where are our ramp
tines? On each side of a magnet, right?

The aluminum can be used to break up a magnetic field
or even stop a field from getting across.

As we all know, the object of the ramp will be to induce
the rotor in one direction (at a time) using powerful or
weak magnets and create a composite as part of the ramp
to release the rotor magnet over time.

I am in and out of many projects some I put on hold to
learn new things. I spend very little time experimenting
at present but that again will change as I gain ideas.

[MadMack]

Dave, no worries. I just didn't want people to get their expectations up prematurely. Your group is doing important and fruitful work that deserves your focus. If this thread has helped you with that in any way then it has been well worth it.

I appreciate everyone's well wishes and support too. Thank you.

For those of you wishing to continue with this, PLEASE, do not spend a bunch of money on it until you are positive you have a working configuration. Work with a cheap test rig until then.

You all realize the split Y ramp is a piece of a ramp, a segment, don't you? It is not THE ramp. It was a place to start experimenting. Go back and look at Ufo's test videos where the back pull of his ramps is so obvious.
Remember this old joke? “Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this! Doctor: Then don't do that!” Those are words of wisdom.

This is the minimum that you are working with. Two or more magnets. Iron. Motion. Time. Physical orientation and spacing of the components at any moment. You might want to consider a piece of copper or aluminum too (induced magnetism when a magnet passes). Those are your variables.
Which variables can manipulate others? Which ones can be manipulated by others? What properties does each variable have? Which properties can be altered or created by another variable, by physical size and/or construction? Altered in which ways? Which properties are significant? Iron for example can have a number of different properties depending on the magnetic field(s) it is exposed to. One section of iron can have multiple magnetic poles. Those poles can be temporary and they can move within the iron, etc. Randy pointed out those last three facts a long time ago. Can you make use of those properties, or do you need to minimize their effects? Iron can also shape and direct magnetism. How can time or motion affect things?

If you are serious then get your test rig and experiment with these variables. A couple of ceramic magnets and a few pieces of sheet steel can teach you things or remind you of something you may have overlooked. Talk to each other and bounce ideas off each other. Focus on the effects and how to produce them or minimize them, not so much on the explanation of the effects or what they are at the atomic level or why they exist in this universe.

Most of all experiment, share ideas, and discuss!

Lastly, don't limit your imagination to the configuration of an electric motor. The goal is simply the rotation of an output shaft that provides torque.


I hope you understand that circumstances being what they are I am focusing my time and efforts on the new motor design (and the preliminary results are encouraging) so my input on this thread will be limited.

Mack

[wantomake]

Mack,
Glad you are up and around. Hope you the best and thanks for the knowledge you passed on to us for the magnet motor. I learned how to balance the opposing poles and was excited about it.
But monies and materials are few for me so I moved on. Also had no success with the ramp construction. Excuses I know but regretful for not trying more as my shop is littered with projects.

Any way glad you are back and hope you continue here,
wantomake
PS Look forward to your new ideas.