Magnet motor revelation

[tarakan]

So can we make all those statements in concrete - that is a rigid plastic rotor and stater that will work with standard neodymium magnets if those parts are printed in Europe, Africa or the North Pole?

Something secured and rigid and guarantied to work.

Thanks.

I can help. But my printer is rather small so it will have to be in segments.
This is where adjustable parts may come in handy as well.

[Mario]

Hi Madmack,

you said the magnets axis shouldn't be in a straight line with the rotor centre if I recall correctly, should they be rotated by about 45 degrees like in Bedini's drawing?

thanks,
Mario

[MadMack]

Bravo BroMikey!

Yes his forces are unequal. See why all the others have failed? You get a batch of magnets and mount them all at the same distances and it doesn't work. Why? Because the forces are not balanced.

This is exactly why there is the need to build the 2 pole rig I described with the ability to adjust the clearances, and why you need to know the actual strengths of the magnets relative to the other magnets.

Mack

PS I am out of time here. I will try to respond to you guys later this evening.

[Turion]

MadMac,
You said: "You do not want to shunt the magnetic field like his picture shows, on the attracting stator magnets." Does this mean that you DO shunt the magnets on the repelling field? I would assume NOT.

Thanks for the quick responses. I believe I have enough information to attempt a replication. I will have to see if I have enough of the right kind of magnets and if not, I may have to order some and that could take a few days. In the meantime I can work on the mechanics of setting up the rotor, adjustable stator, and adjustable ramps.

I will be using 6 magnets on the rotor and 6 on the stator, as I have learned from experience that it is better to try and "balance" pairs of magnets for repulsion and attraction. If you get the first two to balance with each other, you add two more and try to balance them with the first two and with each other. Magnets with a hole in them allow you to put a long bolt through them with a nut on the back and the threaded rod gives you adjustment options.

Right now I am looking for suitable material for the two curved ramps. Just exploring my options for that.

Anyway, thanks for continuing to share information. Hopefully I will have something to post soon. I probably won't be posting here until I do. I have no interest in cluttering up this thread when I have nothing to contribute. There is enough of that.

Dave

[RAMSET]

Mack
I also started a topic here for discussion
A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]

Some very good and helpful people there [and also a few cranky ones ]

however, all work together to make the world a better place.
below is one rendering from DreamthinkBuild

Respectfully
Chet K

[BroMikey]

That would be correct up to a point.

For now, picture this. We have a 2 pole rotor and the attraction is balanced to the repulsion.

Mack

Hi Mack

I am learning fast but still I need to visualize so i hope you don't

mind me finding videos that deal with repulsion at the same time

attraction works in motors? I know I sound green and I guess

I am so here is what I find. I have taken your statement above

finding discussion on repulsion and attraction so cogging is near zero.


In this video he states the forces are unequal.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5q47JJJAww[/VIDEO]

[MadMack]

Are the ramps between the magnets on the stator? If so, I would say you need a large rotor so that there will be space for ramps between magnets on the stator.

That would be correct up to a point. Too large and the rake of the ramp becomes too little, unless additional magnets are used. The design is a balance of diameter, number of magnets, strength and size of the magnets, ramp length arc spacing and thickness.

Did you use the same number of magnets as in the Bedini picture on the rotor?

No. The least was 6. The rotors diameter has a direct bearing on the output torque.

Do you have magnets on your ramps like Bedini did?

Not exactly like his. The picture you posted shows a ramp and repelling magnet, not the attracting magnet and ramp. You do not want to shunt the magnetic field like his picture shows, on the attracting stator magnets.

In the Bedini version the stator has to remain fixed in order for the thing to work properly. You said your ramps pivoted in the middle? Trying to imagine how that would contribute to the movement of the rotor or what advantage a ramp that pivots in the middle gives to the design.

The pivot in my ramps do not contribute any additional force or movement to the rotor. The power developed is provided by the rake of the ramp in relation to the rotor magnet (rate of change over distance or time). If the ramp can pivot in either direction the rake can be altered, thus decreasing the rate of change and throttling down the output. The ramp pivoting is a mechanically operated mechanism, the gas pedal. If the rake of the ramp is reversed it acts as a brake. If the rake is neutral, the motor stops.

We're getting ahead of where we should be focusing our attention right now.
Let's take it slow and focus on the basic 2 pole test rig instead of the complete motor, ok? Everything you need to know in order to build bigger more powerful motors can be learned with this, for a lot less expense. After we get the magnetic balance, or very close to it, then we can move on to the ramp details.

For now, picture this. We have a 2 pole rotor and the attraction is balanced to the repulsion. You can rotate the rotor by hand and feel very little or no cogging. You stick a ramp at one side of the attracting stator magnet. As the attracted rotor magnet comes under the influence of the ramp it accelerates. As it accelerates toward the stator magnet, it also gains inertia. The stator magnet also attracts, but the stator magnets attraction is being neutralized by the repelling magnets at the opposite side of the motor. The rotor inertia carries the rotor magnet fully under and slightly past the attracting stator magnets center line. At this same instant, the rotor magnet at the opposite side, 180 degrees away has traveled slightly past the center line of the repelling stator magnet, which is now doing its job and preventing the attracted rotor magnet from being dragged back under its attracting stator magnet. The rotor is free wheeling at this point. Inertia continues the rotation until the rotor magnets come under the influence of the next set of ramps and the cycle repeats.

Mack

[BroMikey]

Here is a video on the secrets of magnets, help as applied

to rotor design. Copper does pull on the magnet so this should

also be measured if you are using a copper coil in your magnet

motor.As it turns out there are more ways to measure

magnets or magnetic coils fields than I was aware of.
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKGoXD8P5A[/VIDEO]

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ysbWjd5OPE[/VIDEO]

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TXXVDQaeYM[/VIDEO]
Old Computer Monitor

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bliKAQMq5Yc[/VIDEO]

[BroMikey]

BroMikey,
I don't know about you but I can remember a bunch of people who had perfectly good car engines that would not run because they messed up the ignition timing or they didn't set the point gap correctly. I saw quite a few nice fire balls shooting out of their carbs too.

Mack

Hey Mack

The post you made about measuring magnet strength got me looking

around the web and even little children are learning about this. I know

a Gauss meter does some good. Maybe we can take your first suggestion

in the recipe for good motors like the first item being one of the main

ingredients. Like on the side of the box we read how to mix up a cake,

well like flour is first, you see what i mean?

Some simple and some not so simple.
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlOesnIXiPU[/VIDEO]
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I8gMmYLs30[/VIDEO]
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCYYpXAEVbA[/VIDEO]
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0SxyyhsWCw[/VIDEO]
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2J1qy3r_Sg[/VIDEO]
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgArHxfJPjM[/VIDEO]

[tarakan]

John has done his best, what about you and me? It's someone

else turn now so remember no money is not the way John operates.

John gave all. But that is another subject.

Okay if you want 3D printed work, can you at least come up

with a drawing using a pencil and a piece of paper? A linear drawing

would be nice especially if you want your concept known.

Personally i trust everything about John and so please cut the

attacks on my friend.


Without John we would have very little to start with.

A picture please so we can all get up to speed.

Do you have a working prototype of the permanent magnet motor?

[BroMikey]

My system is a linear ramp.



I personally tend to distrust Bedini and everything he does.


Thanks.

John has done his best, what about you and me? It's someone

else turn now so remember no money is not the way John operates.

John gave all. But that is another subject.

Okay if you want 3D printed work, can you at least come up

with a drawing using a pencil and a piece of paper? A linear drawing

would be nice especially if you want your concept known.

Personally i trust everything about John and so please cut the

attacks on my friend.


Without John we would have very little to start with.

A picture please so we can all get up to speed.

[tarakan]

So let me focus on the BASIC model then, rather than the advanced version.
Are the ramps between the magnets on the stator? If so, I would say you need a large rotor so that there will be space for ramps between magnets on the stator.
Did you use the same number of magnets as in the Bedini picture on the rotor?
Do you have magnets on your ramps like Bedini did?

In the Bedini version the stator has to remain fixed in order for the thing to work properly. You said your ramps pivoted in the middle? Trying to imagine how that would contribute to the movement of the rotor or what advantage a ramp that pivots in the middle gives to the design.

Dave

My system is a linear ramp. I have no money or time to make it a rotating permanent magnet motor. Too many variables.
I personally tend to distrust Bedini and everything he does.
If rotating (not linear like mine) permanent motors can be built (no electricity, just magnets) than why isn't there a 3D printable version that any hobbyist with a 3D printer can build? Can we develop that?

Some mathematical formulas may be derived from the simple ramp configuration and applied to the practical rotating machine. This is where I got stuck, personally.

Thanks.

[Turion]

So let me focus on the BASIC model then, rather than the advanced version.
Are the ramps between the magnets on the stator? If so, I would say you need a large rotor so that there will be space for ramps between magnets on the stator.
Did you use the same number of magnets as in the Bedini picture on the rotor?
Do you have magnets on your ramps like Bedini did?

In the Bedini version the stator has to remain fixed in order for the thing to work properly. You said your ramps pivoted in the middle? Trying to imagine how that would contribute to the movement of the rotor or what advantage a ramp that pivots in the middle gives to the design.

Just to throw it out there......My most successful attempt at a motor was a ramp with magnets along the side that forced a magnet with wheels on it to roll up a ramp. When it went over the top it rolled down the other side by gravity, its weight causing the slightly bent (more of a curve) see-saw to tip, and the ramp on the front came out of alignment with the magnets on the sides and the ramp on the back side to now come into alignment with magnets on the sides that forced the rolling magnet to reverse direction back up the ramp and over the top again. The see-saw would tip back and forth. The bigger and heavier the magnets, the more work it would do. Sometimes it would run for quite a while until something got in a bind or out of alignment, and then it would stop. I built several models with successively larger magnets, but all versions would get in a bind or out of alignment, so I quit the project. Maybe too soon, but I spent a couple years on it.

Dave

[tarakan]

Magnet Motor

I built a sucesseful magnet ramp that seems to defy standard expectations.
The moving part moved up the ramp and fell off, or went out of the reach of the magnetic force.

There is such product as a green magnetic film out there that shows magnetic fields. Is it possible to buy a big size sheet and to photograph one of those motors that work and to publish it in 1 : 1 scale, as well as stencils for the rotor and the stater?

When is there going to be a set of 3D printer files that anyone can print and populate with magnets, making a magnet motor without all the empirical tinkering?

I want to prepare models like this. Help me if you have SUCCESSFULLY built the motor or a ramp.

I understand that some adjustable parts may be needed but I want to minimize the amount of those.

Neodymium magnets are very standardized. It is to our advantage.

Thank you.

[MadMack]

Dave,
That's the picture. Half of the motor. My ramps are different.
I built the first prototype with HDP, epoxy, a hacksaw, saber saw, 3/8 hand drill, vise, table saw, files, and miscellaneous common hand tools. The table saw was a luxury but not really necessary. No machine shop, I'm a poor man. The rotor magnets were shimmed to the correct distance from the center of the axle shaft using automotive feeler gauges and shims cut from a soda can. The stator magnets were infinitely adjustable using a sliding mount made of oak, fine thread rod, and jam nuts. What I described in the first post is an advanced model. The little 2 pole test rig is all anyone need build in order to gain understanding. Even if you can't get perfect magnetic force cancellation you can get pretty darn close. What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide. Anyway, get the neutral balance first.

BroMikey,
I don't know about you but I can remember a bunch of people who had perfectly good car engines that would not run because they messed up the ignition timing or they didn't set the point gap correctly. I saw quite a few nice fire balls shooting out of their carbs too.

Mack