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  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Originally posted by tachyoncatcher View Post


    RE: Stator Magnets
    No where, that I can find does Mack say the stator magnet's magnetic axis should be aligned with the rotor axle. He does say early on that his motor was similar to the Bedini drawing Dave posted, but that the ramps and shunting was different. He expressed the different angle for the rotor magnets, but never referenced the stator magnet angles. Guess that one is up to experimentation.

    Good Luck,

    Randy

    Re read Mack's post #50...

    Take care

    Ufopolitics

    Leave a comment:


  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Additional comment scrutiny

    UFO, thanks for the spell check. I believe Mack was referencing a more symmetrical form between the rotor and stator magnets than you represent by his statement:
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    The rotor inertia carries the rotor magnet fully under and slightly past the attracting stator magnets center line. At this same instant, the rotor magnet at the opposite side, 180 degrees away has traveled slightly past the center line of the repelling stator magnet...
    RE: Repelling stator magnet ramp.
    Macks comments in this area lead to the impression he was using some kind of mechanical shunts. I refer to this:
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    ...Remember how I said that as a rotor magnet is accelerating towards an attracting magnet, the repelling magnets at the opposite side were neutralizing the pull of the attracting magnet? A shunt on the repelling stator magnet similar to the Bedini drawing will kill some of this neutralization and add to the torque. You only need the neutralizing action of the repelling magnets after they pass their center lines. Any neutralizing affect you can eliminate before that point is beneficial. Likewise reducing back drag attraction on the attracting set, with a shunt on the other side of this magnet from its ramp, can also benefit....
    RE: Stator Magnets
    No where, that I can find does Mack say the stator magnet's magnetic axis should be aligned with the rotor axle. He does say early on that his motor was similar to the Bedini drawing Dave posted, but that the ramps and shunting was different. He expressed the different angle for the rotor magnets, but never referenced the stator magnet angles. Guess that one is up to experimentation. -- Correction -- See Post #50. Experimentation is recommended on angle and distance starting from rotor axle alignment.

    Good Luck,

    Randy
    Last edited by tachyoncatcher; 09-01-2015, 12:00 AM.

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  • kenssurplus
    replied
    set ramp positions vs dynamic

    Hi All, If I understand Mack's method correctly, I believe the pivoting ramps are only moved to control speed (prevent runaway accel), and to shut down or turn off the motor. I don't think that they are free to move around during operation.

    As usual, What do I know? I am not the one sharing the knowledge of a working device here.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''


    I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps

    Dave
    Eventually we will all need some form of iron that can be used for ramps

    that can be made exactly the same for each arm. Lamination of thin

    metal is how transformers have been made so as not to acquire a build

    up of magnetism when coils induce a magnetic field into the metal

    all day long as it runs. Identical parts.

    Also the thin pieces would all be easily cut the same and then pressed

    together in the form or desired shape. Of course we all know that, I am

    making sure that those who peer into this discussion realize that just any

    steel would ultimately become more and more magnetic as the motor

    ran and begin to slow down and then stop.


    The only iusse left would be how to cut thin strips of lamination say from

    an old M.O.T. without leaving a masses burr that would inhibit alignment

    of the stack of parts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    My apologies for the previous two cents...

    Hello Guys,

    Ok, I re read the whole thing again, went through that book...uploaded pics and so on so forth...

    Dragon you are right, I had a fully repulse motor previously..just like Bedini (Not BeNdini Tachyoncatcher...)

    I believe MadMack is trying for Us to define a "Single Module" first, based on Two Poles which we need to perfectly balance to zero magnetic cogging - dragging...

    First off, Attraction and Repulsion are Two completely different forces, and just based on the "Traveling Distance" of each one's Vectors...Attraction has a "Dead Point" , a Dead End where it DIES and rotor will stick...while Repulsion has NO Dead End...infinite I would say as long as the forces are present and a relative distance maintained.

    Based on the above fact...We can not just treat both forces in a perfectly "Symmetrical" disposition (mirrored 180º apart) Stators related to Rotor magnets, and be able to ever obtain a balance that way...I don't know if everyone understand my point...so I made the following CAD:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    If you all notice the Stator (Magnet and Ramp) on the Attract side is slightly moved towards rotation sense...in order that Repulse force and attract force would be traveling around same timing and not attraction setting a brake on rotation before Repulse Force starts decreasing just because both stators were identically set in a Symmetrical way...

    We could even "Delay" the Attract Dead Point (Brake applied, Sticky Point, etc) by turning that Ramp the other way around like below:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    In conclusion...IMHO if we set both stators perfectly aligned with each rotor magnets at 180º (in line) we will never be able to pass the dead end lock on the attract side...remember that both rotor magnets are identical in strength...however, no matter how strong repulsion would be...once a couple of Neo´s N-S Locks in...no way jose they would be broken apart by repulse forces.

    Hope this would be of some help...to keep playing with little magnetic motors...

    Ufopolitics



    EDIT 1:

    There is a mistake in the 30º rotation angle from rotor magnets on above Diagrams...I did not consider the main center line bisecting both poles but the side or Bloch Wall...so they are less inclined.
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-31-2015, 08:12 PM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    Stealth,
    All the rotor magnets should be as close to the same as possible. All the stator magnets should be as close to the same as possible.

    In my OPINION (not fact) it is not necessary that the rotor magnets and the stator magnets be EQUAL in attraction or repulsion to each other. In fact, there may be some advantages to them NOT being the same, for instance a strong attraction of the rotor magnet to the ramp, while the stator magnet at the end of the ramp is weaker, allowing the rotor magnet to fly by. I'm not sure about that, but it does make a kind of sense to me. Weaker magnets could allow for steep, short ramps with weaker magnets in very CLOSE proximity to the rotor magnets without a terrible amount of attraction to provide a sticky point. At least this has been my experience on OTHER builds. As long as the attraction between two magnets on one side is balanced with the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side.

    MadMack may be the only one who can say for sure....until some models get built.

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • Stealth
    replied
    I think many of you are missing the point. If your magnets are not equal in strength,( and they do vary quite a bit even if they are identical), then it will be extremely hard to balance your attraction and repulsion. The only other variables is the distance at which the magnets are positioned. You can balance your system by moving the attraction magnet closer or farther away. You can also balance by moving the ramps closer or farther away. Some of these things are only determined by experimentation. I think that is what he is saying, to play around with a two magnet rotor and stator to determine the relationship between the two forces. ONLY after you achieve balance and no cogging(sticky point), then move to the next stage. When I have time I will build this configuration and determine the parameters of it. I know it will work, as John Bedini's motor works. As it becomes more complicated when more magnets and ramps are used is when you will see a real force to power a generator or m3chanical devices. Good Luck. stealth

    Leave a comment:


  • Mario
    replied
    Mario,
    According to MY understanding, that's the most accurate drawing I have seen of what we need to build. The entire mechanism of the ramp plus stator magnet can occupy no more than 45% of of the circumference of the circle created by the stator, and might need to be just a little LESS, probably about 40-43%, otherwise the beginning of the next ramp will touch the magnet at the end of the first ramp, and we can't have THAT.
    I think MadMack said his was 30 degrees in an 8 pole motor, I may be wrong, but what's important is that the distance between stator magnet and the next ramp is 1.5 - 2 times the distance between ramp and rotor magnet at its widest point.

    If this works, here is my understanding of the how and the why of it. You would have to give the device a push to start, but as the two magnets on the rotor rotate, they are attracted to the steel at the beginning of the ramp. The physical design of the ramp causes the magnets to accelerate to the point where one magnet is in attraction mode and the other is in repulsion mode. There is a shunt on the repulsion mode magnet which allows the attraction mode just a slight bit more reactive force. (I believe from MY experimenting that attraction is STRONGER than repulsion so you many not even NEED a shunt, but we will see) So this tiny extra bit of attraction vs repulsion PLUS the momentum of the two rotating magnets carries the attracting magnet on the rotor PAST the attracting magnet on the stator. (If these 2 magnets are too close together, this will NOT happen, so spacing is critical.) This gets us past the "sticky point". Now we have the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side pushing the two magnets apart and the attraction (stronger) trying to reverse the direction of the rotor. But momentum won't let that happen. In ADDITION, you now have the attraction of BOTH rotor magnets to the new beginning of the next set of steel ramps. Repulsion+attraction to ramp+attraction to ramp + momentum is greater than attraction of magnet to magnet. So the rotor continues to turn and the process repeats.

    As you can see from this example, there are many things that have to be EXACTLY right for it to accelerate. The rake of the ramp must speed up the rotating magnets enough to give them the momentum to get past the two magnets attracting each other. The distance between the two attracting magnets must be enough that their attraction does not stop the forward progress of the rotor.
    this is why I have also added the shunt AFTER the attracting magnets to help this, like MadMack explained.

    Another thought I have had as I have looked at this is that you might want STRONGER magnets on the rotor that are equal in force to each other, and weaker magnets on the stator that are equal to each other. This would give you MORE attraction of the rotor to the ramps, and thus MORE acceleration, yet the same attraction and repulsion at the end of the ramp to get past the sticky point.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts at this point. I am playing with a small version of this right now. I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps, so I cut wood into the curved shape I wanted and bent some strip steel into the same curved shape and screwed it to the wood. Still getting it all put together. Will shoot some video when I have something reasonable to show that I am actually BUILDING this thing. Oh, Lowes has some small square ceramic magnets with holes in the center you might use to create a working model. I have a bunch in my drawer. I will be trying them out to see what I can see before I order a bunch of expensive magnets. I also have a TON of even smaller neos that I could stick on those ceramic magnets to increase their power if necessary.

    Dave
    Mario

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    Mario,
    According to MY understanding, that's the most accurate drawing I have seen of what we need to build. The entire mechanism of the ramp plus stator magnet can occupy no more than 45% of of the circumference of the circle created by the stator, and might need to be just a little LESS, probably about 40-43%, otherwise the beginning of the next ramp will touch the magnet at the end of the first ramp, and we can't have THAT.

    If this works, here is my understanding of the how and the why of it. You would have to give the device a push to start, but as the two magnets on the rotor rotate, they are attracted to the steel at the beginning of the ramp. The physical design of the ramp causes the magnets to accelerate to the point where one magnet is in attraction mode and the other is in repulsion mode. There is a shunt on the repulsion mode magnet which allows the attraction mode just a slight bit more reactive force. (I believe from MY experimenting that attraction is STRONGER than repulsion so you many not even NEED a shunt, but we will see) So this tiny extra bit of attraction vs repulsion PLUS the momentum of the two rotating magnets carries the attracting magnet on the rotor PAST the attracting magnet on the stator. (If these 2 magnets are too close together, this will NOT happen, so spacing is critical.) This gets us past the "sticky point". Now we have the repulsion of the two magnets on the opposite side pushing the two magnets apart and the attraction (stronger) trying to reverse the direction of the rotor. But momentum won't let that happen. In ADDITION, you now have the attraction of BOTH rotor magnets to the new beginning of the next set of steel ramps. Repulsion+attraction to ramp+attraction to ramp + momentum is greater than attraction of magnet to magnet. So the rotor continues to turn and the process repeats.

    As you can see from this example, there are many things that have to be EXACTLY right for it to accelerate. The rake of the ramp must speed up the rotating magnets enough to give them the momentum to get past the two magnets attracting each other. The distance between the two attracting magnets must be enough that their attraction does not stop the forward progress of the rotor.

    Another thought I have had as I have looked at this is that you might want STRONGER magnets on the rotor that are equal in force to each other, and weaker magnets on the stator that are equal to each other. This would give you MORE attraction of the rotor to the ramps, and thus MORE acceleration, yet the same attraction and repulsion at the end of the ramp to get past the sticky point.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts at this point. I am playing with a small version of this right now. I don't have pieces of steel that are thicker at one end than the other to use as my stator ramps, so I cut wood into the curved shape I wanted and bent some strip steel into the same curved shape and screwed it to the wood. Still getting it all put together. Will shoot some video when I have something reasonable to show that I am actually BUILDING this thing. Oh, Lowes has some small square ceramic magnets with holes in the center you might use to create a working model. I have a bunch in my drawer. I will be trying them out to see what I can see before I order a bunch of expensive magnets. I also have a TON of even smaller neos that I could stick on those ceramic magnets to increase their power if necessary.

    Dave
    Last edited by Turion; 08-31-2015, 02:45 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • shylo
    replied
    Hi All, If you take a flat piece of steel, put a ring or cylinder magnet on it at one end , the magnet will roll past the middle of the length of steel(due to momentum) , but it will return and come to rest in the middle.
    I think Mac uses the momentum caused by the pivoting ramp to pull the magnet past the middle and then some how lets go?
    I always tried with only rotating magnets and stationary levers, I never thought of stationary magnets.
    Starting to think I might have missed something, I think I'll give it another try.
    Keep the idea's coming , even if they aren't right ,they make you think.
    Thanks artv

    Leave a comment:


  • Mario
    replied
    Hi all,

    attached just a rough hand drawing. Not included is the distance between a stator magnet and the next ramp, (in case of more than 2 setups around the motor), which should be equal to 1.5 - 2 times the distance between rotor magnet and ramp at the widest point.

    I have not added the bent down part of the ramp as I'm having a hard time getting Madmacks last part. The induced poles are clear but some sentences I'm struggling with.
    If you move (slide) a magnet over an iron bar with a spacer in between the only forces I see are:

    -attraction towards the bar as the magnet approaches it

    -constant force as you slide along

    -magnet attracted back as it wants to leave the bar

    I can't see any force that wants to hold the magnet in the middle…

    Mario
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Well the way it is bouncing around in my head is this. Mack spent

    sometime focusing on balancing the repulsive and attraction forcing

    and then he would refer us to the Bedini version, correct? Not only

    that we should balance between the two forces but also that one

    force is stronger than the other. So Mack gave us a pointer to move

    the stronger force side that is the rotor magnet over so as to be

    able to accomplish this balancing act. Now after all of this instruction

    of balancing and saying the bedini version is close, I can't see where he

    is setting us up to add more magnets all around the circle in the end.

    He has been telling us to balance forces first then go from there.

    Once the balancing is done and the near zero cogging Mack is saying

    that we then can go on to stage two.


    Thats how I heard Mack. Also that the ramps curve away from the rotor.

    I need to go back and read many times. If my thinking changes as I

    reread this session of hints, I will be back.

    Thanks Dave.


    MACK QUOTE:

    We are restricted to the single rotor and stator magnet for magnetic sources, and we have the ramp itself. No other magnets or mechanical mechanisms are available
    Last edited by BroMikey; 08-31-2015, 07:50 AM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    Nothing wrong with your diagram so far. Just needs things added to it. I have been over and over and over the information that has been presented and there is at least one critical question I do not yet have an answer for.

    The ramps are between the stator magnets. There is a magnet on the ramps and a shunt on the repelling magnet. But is the magnet on the ramp the stator magnet, or are there stator magnets in ADDITION to the magnets on the ramps? This question is never clearly answered in any statement made so far, and I didn't ask when I had the chance.

    If you read exactly what was written he said to "balance the 2 magnets on the rotors with the 2 magnets on the stator" and THEN add a ramp, but he also said a "repelling magnet at the end of a curved ramp on the stator." For now my assumption is that there are two magnets on the rotor and two magnets on the curved ramps that make up the stator. Of course I am probably wrong.

    Dave

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Hey Turion

    Yes I made my diagram to soon and knew I was getting the cart before

    the horse knowing that picking over the Mack quotes should be first and

    for most. It's just that I knew I would make a mess of putting his posted

    thoughts in chronological order. You did that far better because you

    are much more advanced in magnet motor design. I depend on your

    help and look for your lead.

    I read some of this MACK info again and this prompted me to change

    the stator magnet polarity on the attraction side and the rotor polarity

    as well. Next it looks like I need to be moving a rotor magnet off center.

    Now I have a starting place and will continue to think on this till I have

    settled on how this works. Later I'll have a magnet motor I can run

    power off of

    You are in the lead Sir.

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    Major Points made so far

    THESE ARE ALL DIRECT STATEMENTS FROM MadMacexcept the parts in red I added which are to help things make sense in context.

    These are all the clues he has given us to build this project, so do not let various incorrect (including my own) diagrams send you down the wrong path. Don't take the simple way out and look at pictures. CHECK those pictures against what he wrote.

    It begins HERE:

    you must have magnetic attraction so where does it come from? It comes from iron ramps between the stator magnets.

    You have all seen Bedinis picture that shows the 4 magnets on the rotor and a repelling magnet at the end of a curved ramp on the stator. There is the basic concept in all its simplicity. What isn't shown is an opposing ramp with it's attracting magnets for balance.

    including a useful magnetic shunt on the stator magnet

    Torque can be improved by altering the vector of the magnetic pull. You do this by placing the rotor magnet so its magnetic axis is not through the center line of the rotor shaft.

    Short ramps will provide more torque than long ramps.

    The magnets on the rotor all have the same polarity facing out to the stator.
    There must be an equal number of magnet sets in attraction and repulsion at the same time.
    The ramps pivot at their center lines. This provides a means to throttle, stop, or reverse the motor rotation.
    The ramps are steel with little or no magnetic retention.
    I used square or rectangular magnets, not round.
    The rotor and stator are nonmagnetic material. Do not use aluminum or any material that will develop eddy currents.

    The closer the gap between the rotor and stator magnets the more critical the individual magnet clearances become. There is a huge difference in pull between 0.030” and 0.090” gaps. Don't forget to consider any clearance in the rotor shaft and bearings. Shoot for a tight slip fit between the bearing and shaft.

    If the rotor is Too large the rake of the ramp becomes too little, unless additional magnets are used. The design is a balance of diameter, number of magnets, strength and size of the magnets, ramp length arc spacing and thickness.

    You do not want to shunt the magnetic field like his picture shows, on the attracting stator magnets. Shunt on repelling magnets though

    The power developed is provided by the rake of the ramp in relation to the rotor magnet (rate of change over distance or time). If the ramp can pivot in either direction the rake can be altered, thus decreasing the rate of change and throttling down the output. The ramp pivoting is a mechanically operated mechanism, the gas pedal. If the rake of the ramp is reversed it acts as a brake. If the rake is neutral, the motor stops.


    We have a 2 pole rotor and the attraction is balanced to the repulsion. You can rotate the rotor by hand and feel very little or no cogging. You stick a ramp at one side of the attracting stator magnet. As the attracted rotor magnet comes under the influence of the ramp it accelerates. As it accelerates toward the stator magnet, it also gains inertia. The stator magnet also attracts, but the stator magnets attraction is being neutralized by the repelling magnets at the opposite side of the motor. The rotor inertia carries the rotor magnet fully under and slightly past the attracting stator magnets center line. At this same instant, the rotor magnet at the opposite side, 180 degrees away has traveled slightly past the center line of the repelling stator magnet, which is now doing its job and preventing the attracted rotor magnet from being dragged back under its attracting stator magnet. The rotor is free wheeling at this point. Inertia continues the rotation until the rotor magnets come under the influence of the next set of ramps and the cycle repeats.

    You have to take magnetic induction in the ramps into account. Having a stator magnet touching at each end of the ramp turns the ramp into a bar magnet with strong NS poles, and interferes with things. We want the ramp close to or touching only one magnet at the end of the ramp like the Bedini drawing.

    The distance of this space varies with magnet strengths but a rule of thumb is a minimum of 1.5 to 2 times the gap between the rotor magnet and the ramp, at its widest point. In my 8 pole motor, with magnets every 45 degrees, the ramp length was about 30 degrees. Yours may be a little different.

    the rotation of my magnets was not 45 degrees. The exact angle depends on the rake of the ramp so you may want to try between 30 and 45 degrees.

    To save some time and effort later, when you set up this test rig you should put the stator magnets in a mounting block that can be repositioned as needed. You will want to try different angles and rotor clearances with these.

    Davis’s Manual of Magnetism
    Magnetic Current Research
    Page 66, fig. 44. That is essentially a rotor magnet and an acceleration ramp. The vertical bar magnet is the rotor magnet and the horizontal iron bar is the ramp. See the magnetic poles induced into the ramp by the rotor magnet? There are 3 north poles. Obviously the north poles at both ends of the ramp, which are created by the rotor magnet, will try to keep the north pole rotor magnet from moving past the middle. We can add some rake by angling the ramp but that will only alter the balance point a little and the rotor magnet will still try to remain over the ramp at the balanced point. Result: a non working motor.

    So we fix this by putting a south pole stator magnet under the left side of the iron bar in fig. 44. If the stator magnet is not over the ramp, the ramp will have a south pole on the left and a north pole on the right. Now there is a strong south pole that will pull a north pole rotor magnet toward it, right to left across the ramp. The closer the rotor magnet gets to the stator magnet the stronger the pull. Right?
    Yes, but what is going on now at the right end of the ramp? There is a north pole at the end of it right? So that should push against the rotor magnet and help things even more. Right?
    Well, no. What is happening now is the rotor magnet is inducing a south pole into the ramp at the right end which will try to pull the rotor backwards. We just can't win it seems. Even though the rotor will now pull toward the south stator magnet at the left, that pull is being robbed of its strength by the affects of magnetic induction in the ramp, the induced south pole at the right. The degree of loss drops as distance between the rotor magnet and south pole stator magnet decreases, and distance between the rotor magnet and the south pole at the right end of the ramp increases.

    So, what could be done to reduce this unwanted loss? The induction can't be done away with. We are restricted to the single rotor and stator magnet for magnetic sources, and we have the ramp itself. No other magnets or mechanical mechanisms are available. The acceleration ramp will eventually have another magnet a little ways past the right end of it and we don't want to get to close to that with the ramp, so what is left to do that will reduce the loss?

    The answer should be easy if you understand what is going on here. The ramp does not have to be a straight piece of iron. We could add some length to the right end of the ramp and bend this extra length down and away from the rotor. This would place the induced south pole farther away from the rotor magnet and reduce it's affect.

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