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  • BroMikey
    replied
    That little video has answered a bunch of questions I had.

    Now I see the rotation direction as Mack talked to me about

    because I wasn't sure of which way this is to work. Also the 50

    other questions have been laid to rest and we are not wasting

    anytime here. Awesome Dave. Mack says your are the best

    one to be able to explain what he said.


    The rest of us will be generating about the same time. Please

    lead the way.

    I have also updated my diagram to include the proper direction

    of rotation. Some magnets I ordered came in the mail today

    but they don't have a hole in them.

    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-01-2015, 10:47 PM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    As I said in my last post, time for me to quit talking and start building. Now that I have something on my bench to really start playing with, let me make a couple suggestions. Take them for what they are worth. I'm not trying to dictate here, just share what I have learned.

    1. If you purchase magnets with a hole in them, make sure that hole is big enough to be able to use bolts or screws that are going to be strong enough to be used with neo magnets.
    2. BOLT down the attracting stator magnet and work with adjusting the repulsive stator magnet.
    3. Come up with a way of changing the angle of your rotor magnets without having to redo everything. A piece that will attach to your rotor as I am using is one way but not the ONLY way.
    4. Make sure you have a way of making fine adjustments to one of your two stator magnets or you will NEVER get it to balance.

    Having said all that, here is the video of what I have built, and you will see the small error I made that is keeping me from balancing my setup right now.

    Two magnet rotor - YouTube

    Dave

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Attention serious builders. Please read this in all your extra

    time. MadMack is forwarding this good read so put your

    thinkin caps on straight. Okay I am seeing that you were talking

    about tuning the magnet and not moving the magnets around to

    get a set of 4 magnets the same. I was thinking wrong. Thanks for

    correcting my would be tangent. I hate a meaningless tangent.

    I have crossed out the false drawings.
















    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-01-2015, 08:57 AM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Thanks MAD MACK you are dynamite to pop in like this.

    I was just about to go over your previous materials like these quotes.

    Really I am just beginning to get caught up on all of the facts.

    For example @ ALL

    This is a first entry by MADMACK and I want to do his quotes a little

    different than Dave did. I want to do quotes for rehash in context,

    that is the context of that installment. Then do another set of quotes

    later. I will go back and look at all of your new directives MADMACK

    I'll be back

    You sure are takin a load off MADMACK.


    The MAD MACK QUOTES



    All you have to do is set up your magnets for a net 0 magnetic pull. That means for every set of magnets that are in attraction you simply provide a set that is in repulsion. Think about that, as one rotor / stator magnet set is attracting each other, there is another set that are repelling each other. The two forces cancel each other.


    You must have magnetic attraction so where does it come from? It comes from iron ramps between the stator magnets.


    an opposing ramp with it's attracting magnets for balance. Other than that, the principles are all there including a useful magnetic shunt on the stator magnet. See? It's not even my idea, I just applied symmetry to it. The only tricky part is maintaining the magnetic symmetry at the end of the ramps next to the magnets.


    You do this by placing the rotor magnet so its magnetic axis is not through the center line of the rotor shaft.


    Short ramps will provide more torque than long ramps.


    One set of magnets every 45 degrees works well. Magnets at 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees in attraction. Magnets at 45, 135, 225, and 315 degrees in repulsion. This balances the side forces to the rotor shaft and stator housing.


    Or Magnet pairs every 60 degrees will also work instead of every 45 Degrees.

    Other details:

    1. I used square or rectangular magnets, not round.

    2. The magnets on the rotor all have the same polarity facing out to the stator.

    3. There must be an equal number of magnet sets in attraction and repulsion at the same time.

    4. The ramps pivot at their center lines. This provides a means to throttle, stop, or reverse the motor rotation.

    5. The ramps are steel with little or no magnetic retention.

    6. The rotor and stator are nonmagnetic material. Do not use aluminum or any material that will develop eddy currents.

    There it is. All of it. Now I can rest with a clear conscience. You can take it at face value or not, your choice.

    Best regards to all of you,
    Mack




    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-01-2015, 08:00 AM.

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  • MadMack
    replied
    Tuning a magnet

    Do all of you have the Davis book? Go back to that section on induction by the influence of a Magnet and read it again. This time think about what is said in these parts.

    Page 63-64, paragraph 109 and exp. 15. Paragraph 111 and fig. 41.

    Page 66, paragraph 112 and fig. 45.

    The strength of a magnet pole may be increased by the inductive influence of iron or decreased by adding reluctance (fig. 45). In other words, tuned.

    For advanced consideration. (fig 41)
    It can also be seen that a pole of a magnet can be directed to the end of shaped iron, and when redirected in this manner will lose some of it's strength. Give this one some extra thought along with the outer pole of the stator magnets. You don't have to take advantage of this, unless you want to.

    Mack

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  • MadMack
    replied
    Hi guys,

    I have some unexpected free time so will try to catch things up.

    Starting at Randy's post #60. Correct about the ramp bend, but keep in mind that is optional and in any case should be tested later in the development sequence. No need to worry about it until after a baseline has been established.

    Everyone please keep in mind that as you go you will get all sorts of ideas, but please try to keep it simple. It's easy to over complicate things and end up getting discouraged.

    BroMikey, post #61. Perfect starting point. Are you sure about that rotation direction? I'm not saying it's wrong, just be sure. Notice that if you flip the rotor over the magnet angles slant the opposite way? Makes it real easy to test one vs. the other after a ramp is in place. It also makes it easy to put the rotor in backwards during a reassembly.

    Dave post #62. Allow me to clarify. If a shunt is used on the attracting magnet it will not look like the Bedini shunt on his repelling ramp & magnet.

    Dave post #64. One stator magnet at the closest part of each ramp. No other magnets on a ramp, unless you have discovered something that I did not.

    BroMikey post #65. A stator magnet is not moved over to balance, but closer or farther away from the shaft centerline.

    Mario #66. That scale is close for a single rotor with 8 magnets. I don't agree with the ramp shape I see. Not at all. I used a uniform thickness right up to the stator magnets.

    For all of you to determine in testing: Does the ramp butt up to the side of the stator magnet or does it go underneath a stator magnet? The answer to that is not a hard fast rule to follow. What works best for your particular stator magnets is the correct answer.

    Shylo # 67. The ramps do not pivot every time a rotor magnet passes. See post #74 by kenssurplus, that is the correct interpretation.

    Dave #68. That comes close to nailing it. On the two pole, both rotor magnets will encounter their respective ramps at the same moment. All rotor magnets need to be as close to the same strength as practical. To try to illustrate what I mean, if a single iron block was placed close to the outer edge of the rotor, then as the rotor rotated, each rotor magnet would measure the same pull toward that iron block. All stator magnets must also be as close to the same strength as practical. When I say to balance the forces, I mean the actual forces applied by the rotor and stator magnets, not their magnetic strength in gauss.

    Mario #69. Correct. But again, not written in stone.

    Stealth #70. Regarding balancing methods. There are additional ways. I will elaborate a little later.

    Dave #71. Exactly. As long as balance is achieved. This is the baseline setup to return to when experiments don't pan out.

    Ufo #72. Yes the 2 pole is a single module. Interesting that you phrased it like that.
    Attraction and repulsion, I do not quite agree with your description although I understand what you mean. I would describe like this, neither has a dead end. Rather both have a center point of maximum strength, tapering off with distance from that center.

    In my 2 pole builds the stator magnets are 180 degrees apart. Forces are balanced by other means than depicted in your drawings. Now having said that, I never tried what your drawings show!

    BroMikey #73. You can use ordinary strap iron or flat hot roll steel to experiment with ramp designs on the 2 pole. Transformer iron is needed when you transition to the motor build as you noted.

    Kenssurplus #74. Correct.

    Tachyoncatcher #75. Mechanical(?) shunts, just ordinary iron. Hot roll mild steel or bar stock is fine. As long as it will carry the desired amount of flux.


    Posts #76-84. I believe the rest of the posts through #84 have been addressed, but I want to stress that there is no need to buy a bunch of magnets just to get 4 that work.

    Mack

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Hey UFO

    This is what I think should be done. A is identical to B

    What we want is to go just past the dead zone or just before, I

    don't really know. C makes the most sense to me.



    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-01-2015, 05:17 AM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    shylo,
    I must still respectfully disagree. When I first posted the Bedini picture Mac said it was just missing the OPPOSITE side magnet and ramp.. The Bedini device does NOT pivot.

    He also said this:
    "The stator magnets were infinitely adjustable using a sliding mount made of oak, fine thread rod, and jam nuts."
    So he is sliding his ramps in and out to get them in the right position, or at least that's how it appears to me. But most importantly, when you have a magnet on the rotor attracting a magnet on a pivoting stator, what keeps the two from coming together unless you have stops? Nowhere in any of his descriptions did he mention stops, and a shunt will not keep the two from coming together. In fact, the shunt will ALSO be attracted to the rotor magnet. Without stops, the pivoting ramp with the magnet on it will continually drag against the rotor. There is nothing that makes it go back into its original position.

    As to what powers it...I believe it can be summed up in his simple statement:
    "What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide."

    The ramps accelerate the magnets on the rotor, the stator magnets do NOT want to have enough attraction to mess that up.

    Again, you may be right, but I will approach it from this direction rather than from yours, and if we begin working on two opposite ends, perhaps we can both reach a middle where everything works. Anyway, I have contributed as much to this discussion as I can. Now it is time for me to shut up and build.

    Dave
    Last edited by Turion; 09-01-2015, 03:41 AM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    The one

    thing that keeps me going is that we all know that the Bedini version

    works to some degree and is a starting point to learn by. What Mack

    has suggested to me would be similar to going from and single transistor

    in PWM to a darlington pair. In other words it's the same thing only

    improved. Knowing that the foundation is sound keeps me trying.


    Mack wanted us to learn the attraction VS repulsion balancing first

    and like Mack said, No two magnets are the same so balancing means

    adjusting their distances so cogging is virtually eliminated.

    This is why Mack keeps saying TRY IT! DO IT! Balance it! Because Mack

    has had to find out that the field strengths of magnets need to be close

    to one another especially on the rotor. The rotor magnets are harder

    to adjust and if a rotor magnet is working well with 1 of the 4 positions

    (I say 4 positions because in the end each pole has 4
    stations for a total of 8)

    at .60 of and inch then station 2 if stronger than station 1

    might need to be .80 of and inch to balance that set of magnets.

    This is very hard to explain, so I am going to just say it. All magnets

    must be very close to the same strength to get a no cogging rotor.



    This is what Mack has repeatedly stress the importance of doing the 2

    pole setup first. As more poles are added then the more critical the

    tolerances become.

    An 8 pole magnet motor will require high tolerance. This means that

    all magnets must be the same as the next one so the gaps can be

    adjusted nearly all the same. Without that the rotor magnets will

    cog and no balancing with be attained.


    Now the question is, if I make an 8 pole next year where can I get 16

    magnets all the same strength?

    You know what this reminds me of? When I built the Bedini multi channel

    oscillators John says you need transistors all the same or close, so he

    would buy 1000 parts and sort through them till he had parts all the same.


    Now a 2 pole will teach us all about what i am stating.

    Think about the 8 stations.Each rotor magnet encounters all 8 stator

    positions and if rotor magnet 2 is more powerful than rotor magnet one

    then stator gaps could never reach a happy medium.

    This might be why magnet motors have not reached a practical stage

    based on the fact that very few have the patience nor can they

    grasp the complexity.


    As for me 2 poles is enough.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-01-2015, 06:09 PM.

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  • shylo
    replied
    But if the ramp is only allowed to pivot 10 deg.(just a random #) Then putting the magnet at different angels will change with every degree of attraction or repulsion. No?
    artv

    The ramps have to pivot ,without some form of movement the thing will just come to a balance point.
    You have to either push it or pull it , a magnet will travel past the sticky point ,but only for an instant ,then it returns to balance .
    Interrupt the return to balance ,so it moves to the next ramp?
    Last edited by shylo; 09-01-2015, 02:01 AM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    Statement

    Shylo,
    Look to the statement I posted above. What is the need to try different angles if the ramp pivots as the rotors turn? The only reason to try different angles is if the ramp is in a fixed position and you are trying different angles to get the best one. But that's a conclusion based on statements, not a FACT.


    I went through everything that was said several times and tried to list all the FACTS, and I am trying to make all my decisions based on them. Doesn't mean I'm right though. LOL
    Dave

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  • shylo
    replied
    Hi Dave , I have to disagree, If the approaching magnet to the ramp, is a N pole, and the ramp has a magnet of the same polarity N at the far end, That means the closer end will be south , which will cause acceleration of the approaching magnet. If the field of the attracting force is weak enough ,inertia will carry it through.
    Forcing the ramp to pivot away, and then the next approaching will draw the ramp back to it's start point.
    I don't think any thing can be locked ,it needs momentum to carry it through.
    Not sure I'm right ,just the way I see it.
    artv

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  • Turion
    replied
    Something else to consider

    He also said the following:
    "To save some time and effort later, when you set up this test rig you should put the stator magnets in a mounting block that can be repositioned as needed. You will want to try different angles and rotor clearances with these.

    Dave

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  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Yes!

    Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
    Re read Mack's post #50...

    Take care

    Ufopolitics
    Thanks! Ufopolitics.

    Randy

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  • Turion
    replied
    kenssurplus,
    I believe you are right. They pivot ONLY so you can make adjustments and are then locked in place while the rotor is turning.

    Dave

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