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  • Turion
    replied
    MadMac,
    You said: "You do not want to shunt the magnetic field like his picture shows, on the attracting stator magnets." Does this mean that you DO shunt the magnets on the repelling field? I would assume NOT.

    Thanks for the quick responses. I believe I have enough information to attempt a replication. I will have to see if I have enough of the right kind of magnets and if not, I may have to order some and that could take a few days. In the meantime I can work on the mechanics of setting up the rotor, adjustable stator, and adjustable ramps.

    I will be using 6 magnets on the rotor and 6 on the stator, as I have learned from experience that it is better to try and "balance" pairs of magnets for repulsion and attraction. If you get the first two to balance with each other, you add two more and try to balance them with the first two and with each other. Magnets with a hole in them allow you to put a long bolt through them with a nut on the back and the threaded rod gives you adjustment options.

    Right now I am looking for suitable material for the two curved ramps. Just exploring my options for that.

    Anyway, thanks for continuing to share information. Hopefully I will have something to post soon. I probably won't be posting here until I do. I have no interest in cluttering up this thread when I have nothing to contribute. There is enough of that.

    Dave
    Last edited by Turion; 08-26-2015, 08:17 PM.

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  • RAMSET
    replied
    Mack
    I also started a topic here for discussion
    A sincere gentleman sharing a magnet motor build .[NDA issues??]

    Some very good and helpful people there [and also a few cranky ones ]

    however, all work together to make the world a better place.
    below is one rendering from DreamthinkBuild

    Respectfully
    Chet K
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    That would be correct up to a point.

    For now, picture this. We have a 2 pole rotor and the attraction is balanced to the repulsion.

    Mack

    Hi Mack

    I am learning fast but still I need to visualize so i hope you don't

    mind me finding videos that deal with repulsion at the same time

    attraction works in motors? I know I sound green and I guess

    I am so here is what I find. I have taken your statement above

    finding discussion on repulsion and attraction so cogging is near zero.


    In this video he states the forces are unequal.

    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5q47JJJAww[/VIDEO]

    Leave a comment:


  • MadMack
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    Are the ramps between the magnets on the stator? If so, I would say you need a large rotor so that there will be space for ramps between magnets on the stator.
    That would be correct up to a point. Too large and the rake of the ramp becomes too little, unless additional magnets are used. The design is a balance of diameter, number of magnets, strength and size of the magnets, ramp length arc spacing and thickness.
    Did you use the same number of magnets as in the Bedini picture on the rotor?
    No. The least was 6. The rotors diameter has a direct bearing on the output torque.
    Do you have magnets on your ramps like Bedini did?
    Not exactly like his. The picture you posted shows a ramp and repelling magnet, not the attracting magnet and ramp. You do not want to shunt the magnetic field like his picture shows, on the attracting stator magnets.
    In the Bedini version the stator has to remain fixed in order for the thing to work properly. You said your ramps pivoted in the middle? Trying to imagine how that would contribute to the movement of the rotor or what advantage a ramp that pivots in the middle gives to the design.
    The pivot in my ramps do not contribute any additional force or movement to the rotor. The power developed is provided by the rake of the ramp in relation to the rotor magnet (rate of change over distance or time). If the ramp can pivot in either direction the rake can be altered, thus decreasing the rate of change and throttling down the output. The ramp pivoting is a mechanically operated mechanism, the gas pedal. If the rake of the ramp is reversed it acts as a brake. If the rake is neutral, the motor stops.

    We're getting ahead of where we should be focusing our attention right now.
    Let's take it slow and focus on the basic 2 pole test rig instead of the complete motor, ok? Everything you need to know in order to build bigger more powerful motors can be learned with this, for a lot less expense. After we get the magnetic balance, or very close to it, then we can move on to the ramp details.

    For now, picture this. We have a 2 pole rotor and the attraction is balanced to the repulsion. You can rotate the rotor by hand and feel very little or no cogging. You stick a ramp at one side of the attracting stator magnet. As the attracted rotor magnet comes under the influence of the ramp it accelerates. As it accelerates toward the stator magnet, it also gains inertia. The stator magnet also attracts, but the stator magnets attraction is being neutralized by the repelling magnets at the opposite side of the motor. The rotor inertia carries the rotor magnet fully under and slightly past the attracting stator magnets center line. At this same instant, the rotor magnet at the opposite side, 180 degrees away has traveled slightly past the center line of the repelling stator magnet, which is now doing its job and preventing the attracted rotor magnet from being dragged back under its attracting stator magnet. The rotor is free wheeling at this point. Inertia continues the rotation until the rotor magnets come under the influence of the next set of ramps and the cycle repeats.

    Mack

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Here is a video on the secrets of magnets, help as applied

    to rotor design. Copper does pull on the magnet so this should

    also be measured if you are using a copper coil in your magnet

    motor.As it turns out there are more ways to measure

    magnets or magnetic coils fields than I was aware of.
    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGKGoXD8P5A[/VIDEO]

    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ysbWjd5OPE[/VIDEO]

    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TXXVDQaeYM[/VIDEO]
    Old Computer Monitor

    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bliKAQMq5Yc[/VIDEO]
    Last edited by BroMikey; 08-26-2015, 08:44 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post

    BroMikey,
    I don't know about you but I can remember a bunch of people who had perfectly good car engines that would not run because they messed up the ignition timing or they didn't set the point gap correctly. I saw quite a few nice fire balls shooting out of their carbs too.

    Mack

    Hey Mack

    The post you made about measuring magnet strength got me looking

    around the web and even little children are learning about this. I know

    a Gauss meter does some good. Maybe we can take your first suggestion

    in the recipe for good motors like the first item being one of the main

    ingredients. Like on the side of the box we read how to mix up a cake,

    well like flour is first, you see what i mean?

    Some simple and some not so simple.
    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlOesnIXiPU[/VIDEO]
    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I8gMmYLs30[/VIDEO]
    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCYYpXAEVbA[/VIDEO]
    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0SxyyhsWCw[/VIDEO]
    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2J1qy3r_Sg[/VIDEO]
    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgArHxfJPjM[/VIDEO]
    Last edited by BroMikey; 08-26-2015, 08:43 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • tarakan
    replied
    Originally posted by BroMikey View Post
    John has done his best, what about you and me? It's someone

    else turn now so remember no money is not the way John operates.

    John gave all. But that is another subject.

    Okay if you want 3D printed work, can you at least come up

    with a drawing using a pencil and a piece of paper? A linear drawing

    would be nice especially if you want your concept known.

    Personally i trust everything about John and so please cut the

    attacks on my friend.


    Without John we would have very little to start with.

    A picture please so we can all get up to speed.
    Do you have a working prototype of the permanent magnet motor?

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by tarakan View Post
    My system is a linear ramp.



    I personally tend to distrust Bedini and everything he does.


    Thanks.
    John has done his best, what about you and me? It's someone

    else turn now so remember no money is not the way John operates.

    John gave all. But that is another subject.

    Okay if you want 3D printed work, can you at least come up

    with a drawing using a pencil and a piece of paper? A linear drawing

    would be nice especially if you want your concept known.

    Personally i trust everything about John and so please cut the

    attacks on my friend.


    Without John we would have very little to start with.

    A picture please so we can all get up to speed.

    Leave a comment:


  • tarakan
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    So let me focus on the BASIC model then, rather than the advanced version.
    Are the ramps between the magnets on the stator? If so, I would say you need a large rotor so that there will be space for ramps between magnets on the stator.
    Did you use the same number of magnets as in the Bedini picture on the rotor?
    Do you have magnets on your ramps like Bedini did?

    In the Bedini version the stator has to remain fixed in order for the thing to work properly. You said your ramps pivoted in the middle? Trying to imagine how that would contribute to the movement of the rotor or what advantage a ramp that pivots in the middle gives to the design.

    Dave
    My system is a linear ramp. I have no money or time to make it a rotating permanent magnet motor. Too many variables.
    I personally tend to distrust Bedini and everything he does.
    If rotating (not linear like mine) permanent motors can be built (no electricity, just magnets) than why isn't there a 3D printable version that any hobbyist with a 3D printer can build? Can we develop that?

    Some mathematical formulas may be derived from the simple ramp configuration and applied to the practical rotating machine. This is where I got stuck, personally.

    Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    So let me focus on the BASIC model then, rather than the advanced version.
    Are the ramps between the magnets on the stator? If so, I would say you need a large rotor so that there will be space for ramps between magnets on the stator.
    Did you use the same number of magnets as in the Bedini picture on the rotor?
    Do you have magnets on your ramps like Bedini did?

    In the Bedini version the stator has to remain fixed in order for the thing to work properly. You said your ramps pivoted in the middle? Trying to imagine how that would contribute to the movement of the rotor or what advantage a ramp that pivots in the middle gives to the design.

    Just to throw it out there......My most successful attempt at a motor was a ramp with magnets along the side that forced a magnet with wheels on it to roll up a ramp. When it went over the top it rolled down the other side by gravity, its weight causing the slightly bent (more of a curve) see-saw to tip, and the ramp on the front came out of alignment with the magnets on the sides and the ramp on the back side to now come into alignment with magnets on the sides that forced the rolling magnet to reverse direction back up the ramp and over the top again. The see-saw would tip back and forth. The bigger and heavier the magnets, the more work it would do. Sometimes it would run for quite a while until something got in a bind or out of alignment, and then it would stop. I built several models with successively larger magnets, but all versions would get in a bind or out of alignment, so I quit the project. Maybe too soon, but I spent a couple years on it.

    Dave
    Last edited by Turion; 08-26-2015, 02:01 AM.

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  • tarakan
    replied
    Magnet Motor

    I built a sucesseful magnet ramp that seems to defy standard expectations.
    The moving part moved up the ramp and fell off, or went out of the reach of the magnetic force.

    There is such product as a green magnetic film out there that shows magnetic fields. Is it possible to buy a big size sheet and to photograph one of those motors that work and to publish it in 1 : 1 scale, as well as stencils for the rotor and the stater?

    When is there going to be a set of 3D printer files that anyone can print and populate with magnets, making a magnet motor without all the empirical tinkering?

    I want to prepare models like this. Help me if you have SUCCESSFULLY built the motor or a ramp.

    I understand that some adjustable parts may be needed but I want to minimize the amount of those.

    Neodymium magnets are very standardized. It is to our advantage.

    Thank you.

    Leave a comment:


  • MadMack
    replied
    Dave,
    That's the picture. Half of the motor. My ramps are different.
    I built the first prototype with HDP, epoxy, a hacksaw, saber saw, 3/8 hand drill, vise, table saw, files, and miscellaneous common hand tools. The table saw was a luxury but not really necessary. No machine shop, I'm a poor man. The rotor magnets were shimmed to the correct distance from the center of the axle shaft using automotive feeler gauges and shims cut from a soda can. The stator magnets were infinitely adjustable using a sliding mount made of oak, fine thread rod, and jam nuts. What I described in the first post is an advanced model. The little 2 pole test rig is all anyone need build in order to gain understanding. Even if you can't get perfect magnetic force cancellation you can get pretty darn close. What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide. Anyway, get the neutral balance first.

    BroMikey,
    I don't know about you but I can remember a bunch of people who had perfectly good car engines that would not run because they messed up the ignition timing or they didn't set the point gap correctly. I saw quite a few nice fire balls shooting out of their carbs too.

    Mack

    Leave a comment:


  • shylo
    replied
    Hi Mack, I tried a build with pivoting arms, but never with opposing magnets attached to the approaching face. I still think it will find balance.
    Would like to see what you got.
    Sounds interesting.
    Thanks artv

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    Everyone, thank you for your interest. I'm glad to see I have the attention of some of the real builders here. If anyone can get this, it's you guys.

    Charly2, yes that is what I described. Think bigger diameter & more side spacing between magnets.

    Ewizard, round magnets might not make a difference but I can't say. I always used square or rectangular magnets, much easier to work with.

    Everyone, I have to be very careful here because I'm bound by an NDA. I can not post the design drawings or any images and I can't reveal privileged construction details. However, anything else is fair game. I'm sure you guys can read between the lines and see my situation, and understand what I am trying to prevent.

    BTW, when I write about things like this I tend to sound like I'm instructing a class of high school sophomores. Sorry, I can't seem to write any other way, so please overlook my condescending tone.

    That being said.... If you are serious about looking into this be forewarned, you must be meticulous in the construction or you will fail. This has nothing to do with magnetic shielding but there may be some flux redirection involved. Later, maybe.

    As Dave pointed out, it's hard to find two magnets with the exact same strength. Generally, the field varies inversely by the square of distance, at close spacing anyway, so a simple mechanical test rig can be made to determine which magnets are closest in strength. Alternately it can be used to find the weakest magnet, then to determine the distance at which the other magnets exhibit the same strength. Then you can know the clearance to use with the individual magnets. Do this with both the rotor and stator magnets before construction begins.

    The closer the gap between the rotor and stator magnets the more critical the individual magnet clearances become. There is a huge difference in pull between 0.030 and 0.090 gaps. Don't forget to consider any clearance in the rotor shaft and bearings. Shoot for a tight slip fit between the bearing and shaft. Roller bearings would be a good idea I think.

    If you decide to pursue this, may I suggest a two pole rig to start with? A 1 thick x 12 long flat with rectangular cross section

    Regards,
    Mack
    Thanks Mack

    There are many inventors here who have tried some of the things

    you mentioned but it is good to hear from someone who DOES

    (Fore-sure) know the way specifically on how success with magnetic

    motors is accomplished. I have some friends who told me they signed

    a N.D.A and at the time I didn't know what that was. So I asked what

    is a N.D.A? Naturally they told me it meant that they were given

    the secret to a specialized invention OR they sold the secret of a

    specialized invention for X amount of monies.


    Oh I replied, I won't ask you any questions I told my friend so you

    don't get in trouble and be subject to jail time. My friend said it was

    alright. I said, alright how? He said as long as he didn't detail a complete

    diagram of the same drawing of the N.D.A (Non-Disclosure-Agreement) that

    he could give away other similar inventions based on the same

    principle. I said Oh great. So I asked my friend where do we start?


    He said ask me any question and if you get it right then that is as

    good as YOU figured it out for yourselves. So I began asking and asking.


    He replied many many NO!! answers but eventually I began to get

    closer til I was able to grasp the idea without jeopardizing my friend.



    I think what you have stated here Mack is that basic tolerances

    and procedures of determining field strength might have caused a

    perfectly viable design to fail. I think you have given us the answer.

    Most have not spent the time to be this accurate but is what it takes.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 08-25-2015, 08:13 PM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    Tolerences

    MadMack,
    I would think that the tolerances needed for adjustment of distances to perfectly balance a rotor/staror combination like you are talking about (when magnets pull more than they push) require some pretty detailed machine work that most folks here are not going to be able to afford to have done and do not have the equipment to build on their own, so most builders have been eliminated from this project before we get out of the starting gate.

    There are a few here who will probably give this a shot if they can figure out exactly WHAT it is they are trying to build. To be honest, I have not taken the time to sit down and try to "read between the lines" to figure out what to build from your written description. I was hoping you would be more forthcoming and I wouldn't HAVE to. I am lazy that way, but I understand restrictions involved with an NDA. Attached is what I believe you were talking about when you referred to John B's device, and I assume you are looking at a hybrid of that and the drawing made by Charly2. If I understand you right, there would be more than one of the "ramps" around the rotor, and your ramps would pivot in the middle. How this would work and how fits together with a stator, I am not clear on....if I am even on the right track here.

    Dave
    Last edited by Turion; 01-15-2018, 11:03 PM.

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