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  • RUE
    replied
    Dave,
    I have some round magnets that are 1.5"x 1". Very strong but I have infinite adjustment on both my stator and rotor magnets as well as the stator itself and I was able to get it very close to no cogging but my rotor wobbles a little bit.I think that it is possible to do with round magnets but square ones are probably better.Will have to try some square neos.Am building a new rotor to try and get everything as close to perfect as possible.
    Joe

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post

    I replaced them with rectangular magnets (Ceramic, but that's all I have until I get some in the mail) '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''


    I'm wondering if the stronger the magnets you have the harder it becomes to balance.
    Yes I was thinking that my ceramic motor magnets are 10X weaker than

    my neos and what looks like cogging with neo's does not seem to look

    like cogging with ceramic, but it is. It is just weaker so it just seems

    better but like you say what about acceleration?

    Great progress. Mack did say that square magnets are his choice.

    Also I keep thinking about the mapping Howard J. did and how

    complex his measurements were. Howy had visualization tools

    no less. The reason I bring this up is the pole reversal that is going

    on in these motors. As the magnets swing past one another many

    field changes take place.


    Mack said he thought of his magnets and their poles as they would

    go past one another as getting stronger as the approach to the center

    line (THE STRONGEST POINT) then diminishing or lowering in push or

    pull.

    Since attraction and repulsion are not equal, one being stronger, then

    it also stands to reason that the field lines will be of a slightly different

    shape.

    This unequal set of forces might be balances in many ways.

    For all practical purposes we can say 180 degrees across from the

    attractive field is the repulsion but this is what we can not see.

    We can not see that each magnet centerline may be off center by

    several thousandths of an inch or mm.

    This thought causes me to make my magnet holder adjustable in

    both X & Y axes. The picture I have shown is only my first brain

    storm and is rapidly evolving into a combination of threaded

    adjusters.

    Like I said I have wanted to do this one for years and years.

    Now I can go ahead and finally scratch this itch.


    Also on another design construction note. I am digging up my SS screws

    that are non magnetic in case my build might throw off the forces using

    iron screws.

    The grain oriented metals for ramps is also very important.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-04-2015, 07:48 PM.

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  • wantomake
    replied
    Woohoo

    Thanks Dave,
    I'm using basically the same setup with Lowe's ceramics like yours. I thought there was to be zero cogging to reach "balance". I balanced my setup but still had some cogging and re-set it again.

    Now I have something to work with. The video helped me to see this.

    Will post link here if I can upload it.
    wantomake

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    Magnets

    I spent two full days trying to get the thing to balance with those round neo magnets, and wasn't able to get it done. I think they are VERY unforgiving of even unmeasurable differences in construction. You better have the thing built at a machine shop to use them, because I put micrometers on everything and the farthest off I was on ANYTHING was .001. Suffice to say I am pretty much done with the ROUND neos.

    I replaced them with rectangular magnets (Ceramic, but that's all I have until I get some in the mail) and it was fairly easy to get balanced. I will get even CLOSER when I tighten things up and spend some time with it, but for right now I am happy to see that it is possible. I was very frustrated. I'm wondering if the stronger the magnets you have the harder it becomes to balance. I'm going to order a couple different sizes to play with on this little rotor and see what happens.

    "Theoretically" I should be able to put any two matching magnets on my rotors and get them to balance with the stator magnets through adjustments.

    Anyway, here is the latest video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-MsoDl7KFI

    Oops. In the video I said I got those at Radio Shack. Force of habit. Got these at Lowes.

    Dave
    Last edited by Turion; 09-04-2015, 10:35 PM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Great thoughts thanks 4 sharing. I did another piece of the

    puzzle tonight and painted it so the wood does not take on

    water and change shape.

    I did the base and the rotor. Now I have to install the main

    bearing. This bearing has a thrust ball bearing on the bottom

    as well. Then I need to do some magnet mounts all the same.

    My magnets are square so maybe they will balance easier.

    I want everyone to know that I have always wanted to make

    a test motor like this but never had any direction to cause me

    to know how to proceed.

    Many thanks to all of you for each one's entry.


    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-04-2015, 07:44 AM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    Shape

    That's a really good point Randy. I have some square ones with a hole in them, but they are ceramic. Will give them a try. Looks like I'll be ordering some neos. Carroll got his to balance with round magnets, but I believe he was at 20 degrees and I have tried 30 and 45. He was also using a smaller disk and MUCH smaller neos.

    Dave
    Last edited by Turion; 09-04-2015, 03:12 PM.

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  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Round Magnets

    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    ...Ewizard, round magnets might not make a difference but I can't say. I always used square or rectangular magnets, much easier to work with...
    Hi Dave,
    Maybe it's not the angle of the rotor or stator magnets. Maybe the magnet shape is just too unforgiving for the strength of the magnets.

    Randy

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    I worked on the cogging on this all day and still cannot figure it out. I Tried SEVERAL different methods of determining where the 180 degree spot was on the rotor. They had all been pre drilled for mounting eight magnets at the machine shop, so I was pretty sure the holes in the rotor were correct, and as far as I can tell, they are. I measured hole to hole with callipers, and they were all equal. So it is the angle of my magnets or something else! I can get it pretty minimal, but I can't get it to go away. I even remounted my stators trying to make sure they are perfectly aligned. Wah, wah, wah.

    I'll get it. If there is one thing I am, it's persistent.

    I also built a second unit with the magnets flat on the rotor and the stator magnets angled. It has a sticky spot too. Minimal, like the other setup, but still there. This one performs better, but that is because the stator magnets are set at 45 degrees rather than 30 degrees like the other setup. more force pushing the magnets out of there. ZOOM!

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by RAMSET View Post
    we should also remember the part motion could play ...[gyroscopic]
    everything seems to change when in motion ?

    Chet K

    Hi Chet

    Good point because as we review Dave's rotor it can be seen that

    when he spins it fast the cogging does no appear to be noticeable.

    His rotor does not lurch in a cogging fashion by a visual judgement.

    So Dave must be very close to the proper alignment.


    This is a point I did not address in my earlier post on cogging.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAMSET
    replied
    food for thought

    we should also remember the part motion could play ...[gyroscopic]
    everything seems to change when in motion ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkWi...ature=youtu.be

    thx to JimBoot for the link.

    sorry for the perhaps off topic...but perhaps NOT ??

    Chet K

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumage
    replied
    G.o.e.s.

    Dear All.

    A fundamental part to the success or failure of this motor totally hinges on the right material used for the shunts.

    Any ordinary Steel used will get magnetised permanently !!

    I have obtained some G.O.E.S. ( Grain Oriented Electrical Steel ) from a local Transformer stamping business.

    But you could use some " I' s " from a MOV Transformer too.

    https://youtu.be/6MdCkLMEv2E

    The above link shows how to neatly remove the top!

    I am working in a similar area ATM, I will be joining in soon once the Magnets have arrived from Germany.

    Cheers Grum.
    Attached Files

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  • shylo
    replied
    Charly2 posted this diagram,http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...revelation-jpg
    Mack said,Charly2, yes that is what I described. Think bigger diameter & more side spacing between magnets.
    Hope that worked
    artv

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post

    I am really puzzled by this. Maybe the two magnets on the rotor are not exactly 180 degrees from each other.
    Dave

    This is going to sound harsh maybe but when I watched your video's

    I expected more than what I saw. I expected something completely

    different. Oh by the way I got another piece done tonight right at the

    end of the day, you know how it is.

    Okay this is what I expected.

    I thought and it is only a thought, that when the two forces of attraction

    VS repulsion were set up to balance out that you wouldn't even know

    there were magnets there. I thought that I was suppose to work at this

    balancing act until the full traveled area of push would coincide with the

    full area arc on the pulling side til nothing can be felt when the rotor

    is turned. thus "no cogging" RESPECTFULLY SIR it looks like you have

    cogging.

    Can you understand my beginners view of the explanation given for

    zero cogging? Like I said I am a green horn when it comes to this stuff

    but doesn't that make any sense?


    Especially only using the 2 poles this zero cogging should be attainable.

    Here is what is on my mind. I made a stator ring 1" thick that is

    somewhere around 18" dia with a 12" hole for the rotor.

    The magnet need to be adjustable using identical parts and same screws

    to hold down with. The holders need to be slotted as well as being

    able to pivot.


    Find and document the repulsion side first. Take off the attraction

    side stator magnet. Using a pencil mark on the board the area arc

    and the relative strength on that arc if you can. Such as very strong

    starting here and weak way over there.

    Then remove the repulsion side stator magnet and repeat the same test

    on the attraction side. When you are done you will know where to move

    your stator magnets to balance your rig.


    Maybe this is what you have already done, I don't know.

    Maybe or maybe not, just my thoughts.

    My paint is about dry, gonna go admire my work, C-ya soon

    Leave a comment:


  • Turion
    replied
    I tried Rue's method and used two magnets that I tested with my clamp on amp meter. They measured out within .01 of each other. I had a variation of 2.5 from the lowest reading to the highest reading. I checked all 11 magnets. It didn't help. I am having the same problem. With the two rotor magnets in one position they both go easiy back and forth through the magnetic gate with NO lock up. But spin the rotor 180 degrees, and now I have to force them through the gate. I don't get it. It's like my rotor is out of balance, but that isn't the case. I am really puzzled by this. Maybe the two magnets on the rotor are not exactly 180 degrees from each other. It is the only thing that makes sense to me, but I will sleep on it. Right now I see that as the only thing it COULD be.

    Edit: Duh. It is probably the STATORS that are not exactly 180 degrees apart. Oh it's always the little things that get ya!

    On another note, I have a couple ideas for ways to change this build and improve on it, but I am not going to post pictures and diagrams. I am going to BUILD the basic unit. Get it to balance. Then add more rotor magnets and get them to balance until I have the three pairs. Then add the ramps and test with them. If I get all that working THEN I might make a change and see if it works. If not, I will keep it to myself. If it works, THEN I will post it here. But I believe in getting the BASIC unit working. If you start making changes, and it doesn't work, how do you know it isn't working because of the changes you made? This is what we went through with all the Bedini stuff. John told people how to build and they used different wire and different transistors and then whined like babies because theirs didn't do what his did. Better to replicate EXACTLY and then if it doesn't work, you go back to the source of your information to find out WHY it didn't work like they said it would or what YOU might have done wrong. But you can't expect Mack to know why a design he had nothing to do with does not work if it ends up not working. I think we need a drawing that at least MOST agree represents the basic model, and then we should all build it. I am not sure we have one yet that most of us would agree on. But I will go back through the posts again.

    Dave
    Last edited by Turion; 09-03-2015, 04:17 AM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    '''''''''''''''''''''''''''

    right there in the back of the drawer was my gauss meter. I have been looking for it for months. So now I will confirm readings with it before I try to balance things tomorrow.

    Dave
    I have a bearing and platform. Plenty of magnets. I need to cut a stator

    ring and mount things up near the rotor. I thought to use cutting

    block board but that stuff warps like garbage and I won't sacrifice my

    1" sheets of acrylic for a mere test, so I guess it is my chance to

    use up some of my choice hard wood saved from old fine head boards

    from master beds. Something decent. Not to expensive YET!!

    As far as balancing magnets for comparable strengths I thought to

    use a pendulum. Or a string with a paper clip on it and then bring

    the magnet close and see how many inches the clip swings toward

    the magnet. Then put another identical magnet in the same place

    marked for so many inches where the last magnet was and see

    if the clip is pulled more or less. All measured in mm or 1/16th of

    an inch. I liked your idea using a succession of clips one behind the

    other to see how many clips it will pick up and then after I thought

    about it enough I considered it important to use the exact same

    clips in the same order as no two clips are alike.

    Your meter should be the best I would think.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-03-2015, 02:51 AM.

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