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  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Rake and Shunts...

    Hello to All,

    @Mikey, the Rake is as Mario said, an inclination of the ramp. The Angle of adjustment.

    Shunt is a deviation: "push or pull (a train or part of a train) from the main line to a siding or from one track to another..."

    In this case the Bedini's iron ramp creates a "shunt" by attraction to the approaching North Pole from Rotor.

    I am certain the "Key" here is to start by having a perfectly balanced system, just between magnets (not including ramps)...Now, the Gap is also important...since we may obtain a great balance BUT with too wide gaps...which is definitively not good! (we are cheating...lol) . Meaning, the Two opposite Forces (Repulse-Attract) MUST be there (Exist) AND with a lot of strength...except they are cancelling out in a straight vector at 180. However, both forces are there.

    The point to understand here is that cancellation of forces ONLY take place EXACTLY in the 180 ALIGNMENT LINE between Rotor-Stators for EACH Module...so, after that particular line-point, they are no longer cancelled, meaning they are there in FULL STRENGTH EACH...to interact with ramps...

    I also believe the acceleration Ramps which generates the "Positive Unbalance" to our Balanced System should be equalized as well, in order that those unbalancing forces are distributed equally across the 180. This way two acceleration vectors of the same magnitude would take place at each Module of Two Rotors and Two Stators.

    I see many possibilities of designing the ramps shape for each module...and not necessarily ramps need to be "Symmetrical" or identical, since we are dealing with two different type of forces....but, only testing each one would give us the better ones.


    Regards


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-09-2015, 12:06 PM.

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  • Mario
    replied
    In Bedini's drawing the the shunt is the part of the ramp where the iron connects part of one pole to the other pole of the stator magnet.

    Rake means inclination.

    Mario

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    When faced with an issue, go back to what Mack said:

    "What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide. Anyway, get the neutral balance first.

    A shunt on the repelling stator magnet similar to the Bedini drawing will kill some of this neutralization and add to the torque. You only need the neutralizing action of the repelling magnets after they pass their center lines. Any neutralizing affect you can eliminate before that point is beneficial. Likewise reducing back drag attraction on the attracting set, with a shunt on the other side of this magnet from its ramp, can also benefit. I can not provide details on the shape of the shunts or any spacings they may have. Look at the Bedini picture for ideas. Too big of a shunt will make things worse."

    Dave

    Wow that is a statement that had not sunk in yet I didn't get

    that til now, well i don't know what a shunt is yet either.

    Thanks - A -Million Dave, right when i needed to hear more, I'll give

    it top priority. Here is my progress report.


    Below is FIG.A and FIG.B they show the influence that a single ramp

    has on the repulsion side using a thin piece of PC power supply metal

    1.25" wide @ approx 6" long. I see that my magnets are weak when

    it come to induction forces so it became imperative to arc some of the

    ramp to keep a .120" gap all long the travel area between rotor and

    that half of the ramp. The angle plays an important role in induced

    field strength that effects the distance the rotor travels.


    No where in the Bedini diagram is there a mention of a shunt.

    Also Mack talks about "rake of the ramp" and i don't understand

    those terms or what they mean.

    here it is again.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-09-2015, 09:09 AM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    When faced with an issue, go back to what Mack said:

    "What is needed is less magnetic drag than the torque the ramps can provide. Anyway, get the neutral balance first.

    A shunt on the repelling stator magnet similar to the Bedini drawing will kill some of this neutralization and add to the torque. You only need the neutralizing action of the repelling magnets after they pass their center lines. Any neutralizing affect you can eliminate before that point is beneficial. Likewise reducing back drag attraction on the attracting set, with a shunt on the other side of this magnet from its ramp, can also benefit. I can not provide details on the shape of the shunts or any spacings they may have. Look at the Bedini picture for ideas. Too big of a shunt will make things worse."

    Dave

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    This is what I found out by trial and error here in this diagram.

    The dimensions are not perfect on the ramp yet. What happens

    is that the entire length of ramp attracts the rotor magnet except

    for a tiny portion right up where the ramp sits next to the stator

    magnet.

    This is the repulsion side and as always the repulsion area on both sides

    of the magnets center has an ever increasing or diminishing amount of force

    on either side of the maximum center of the repulsive forces.


    I had the rotor spinning tonight very freely with the new stator

    mounts working perfectly. Then I accidentally bumped the rotor

    magnet and it cracked, dug it out and reglued a new one in about

    4 hours ago.

    Also I am putting a white dot on the rotor magnets closest to the

    stator magnets and a dot on the stator magnet where the center

    of the forces are at there strongest point.

    This way makes it much easier to find the optimum cancellation

    position.

    I also found out by experimentation, just as has been pointed out, that

    the repulsion side gap between rotor and stator magnet must be set

    closer together to increase the field strength in order to keep up

    with the attraction side. So the attraction side must be a tiny bit

    stronger as evidenced by the need to close the gap on the repuslion

    side to acquire more field lines.

    It is a very small difference but none the less.

    Happy experimenting



    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-09-2015, 04:29 AM.

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  • shylo
    replied
    Hi UFO, I think your right , I went back and redid my test.
    I was bringing a magnet towards a piece of rectangular steel, that had the opposite pole magnet on it at one end. When the rotor magnet was close enough( to the opposite end) the piece of steel moved away.
    But with a longer length of steel , it didn't happen until it got close enough to the attached magnet.
    Not trying to misinform ,just trying to explain what I see.
    I still think it will balance without something changing.
    Sorry about that folks.
    artv

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Okay I have realized something very important tonight. I have

    been unsure of the direction of rotation and have changed my

    rotation direction 3 times. First time after Dave's video I figured

    maybe he was going in the right direction but wasn't real sure

    because no ramp is shown yet for the first stage. But, when

    UFO posted all of his awesome design graphics, I had to wonder

    if his rotation direction was right or was Dave's video right.

    I didn't know which way to go at first till I looked at the effect

    the ramps have that will come later.


    It is starting to make more sense now Mack, why you pointed out

    that I needed to be more sure which direction was right for my build.

    My magnets are angled opposite the UFO drawing.


    What I see clear now is that which ever way we angle the magnets

    the leading edge should be the side that is the weakest as it makes

    it's approach toward the ramps first and then afterward the closest

    portion of the rotor magnet to follow.

    Maybe I am not able to explain this to others very well but I see it

    clearly now.


    I just makes the most sense to have the rotor magnets weak side

    to induce a field into the ramp first instead of the other way around.


    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Stealth View Post
    If some of you guys are having trouble finding suitable material to build a rotor and or stator out of, there is an available solution. You can purchase a nylon or plastic disk used for cutting boards. They come in different shapes from round to square to rectangular. And they are not that expensive. Good Luck. stealth
    Hi Stealth

    There are a lot of things we can all share with one another such

    as our practical experiences for material handling. Many do not have

    the one thing or they have the other thing and they get stuck so

    it is good to make up for one's weakness by giving practical application.


    It is easier said than done. Good to see you are going to keep an eye

    on this new thread. I couldn't think of any better material this time

    for a one shot deal where a test or two will be the end of this machine

    except for demonstration purposes, so I chose wood. And wow wee that

    8X locktite Pro series is the kitty cats meow when it comes to bonding

    to just about anything.

    For those of you who want a good solid piece of wood that doesn't

    cost you one hundred dollars go to your local furniture/appliance dealer

    where a steady stream of cast away master bed head boards are

    thrown out to the rain and snow.

    I have enclosed an updated diagram that is showing my stator magnet

    assembly for anyone who wants their way paved.

    Look to the left of the diagram for the stator magnet mount.


    The hole is made

    oversize with a large flat fender washer that is 2" away from the magnet.

    I might change that to a SS washer but maybe being 2" away won't

    throw it off. This arrangement can be snugged up with the 1/4-20 ss bolt

    and still be moved with a good strong hand in all directions.

    As soon as I get what I want (The first Stage) I will show this in a video.

    The next step will of course be to redirect the the machines balanced

    lines of force to make it run all by it's lonesome. Well not quite til I

    add a few more sets.



    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-08-2015, 09:03 AM.

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  • Stealth
    replied
    If some of you guys are having trouble finding suitable material to build a rotor and or stator out of, there is an available solution. You can purchase a nylon or plastic disk used for cutting boards. They come in different shapes from round to square to rectangular. And they are not that expensive. Good Luck. stealth

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by boguslaw View Post

    Guys, this is only a toy anyway, the only real usage for it is to open mind for better possibilities ...

    Hey Bog..........

    I am all ears but the problem is sometimes your English makes no sense.

    UFO has shown how the design does work and that it is more than a toy

    so go ahead with your magnet motor theory. What college? After all of

    years of speculating what your thoughts might be, I guess we can

    wait a few more decades?


    Either way it has become very clear time and time again that the

    models for just about every principle taught in schools are inaccurate.

    As shown in post #167 as Randy has pointed out, UFO's run down of

    the obvious facts in the experiment takes presidence.

    Presidence meaning, taking first place and does supersede the dern

    dogma force fed the yuppies looking only for the money trail.


    On the other hand their are those of us who have "had it" "UP THE HERE"

    with following the phony leadership who have been shown to be unable

    to find their heads with both hands on a good day.


    We have done our bid for THEIR version of GOD and Country. To break

    free from the systems clutches we must do the investigation first hand.


    As UFO has shown in pictures, just like Howard Johnson tried to do, the

    bloch wall moves and many other advanced interactions take place.


    Most of what Howard J. has shown is not excepted by mainstream

    science, only the portions of his work that compliment mainstream

    philosophy/dogma/deadends.


    Always with just a "HINT" that it might work. Or that nobody knows

    for sure. The facts have been in for years. Some of the first powerful

    magnet motors were bought up in the 1950's with their inventors

    having long since expired. These inventors were silenced with money

    and or threats til such time as their passing would cause their inventions

    to be "out of sight out of mind".


    Think about it.


    Great going to all of the guys for holding the investigation data above

    the dogma/peer pressure driven robots with their intimadating

    non-sense.

    Yours Truly

    Leave a comment:


  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Stator Magnets

    Originally posted by Grumage View Post
    Dear tachyoncatcher.

    For the sake of simplicity I'm going to " fix " the rotor magnet angle to 30 deg. My reasoning behind that ? Fine adjustments can be more easily accomplished on the stator whilst the rotor is turning, also it will be much easier to ballance mechanically. I have a huge stock of Polycarbonate off cuts and a full engineering workshop so if 30 deg don't " cut it " I'll just make another one!!

    As a footnote, the builders here may find that a telephone call to a local plastics company might just yield a few off cuts, Gratis, as they have to pay for the disposal of scrap.

    Cheers Grum.
    Hi Grum,
    Yes, the stators are easily adjusted, but I believe the rotor angle is going to be what is adjusted to maximize the torque from the ramps. To me, the stator angle will be what helps with the transition from the ramps since we know the strongest flux extends from the edge of the magnet, not the center, and the ramps on the repulsive side is going to be out of balance from the attraction side. If you use symmetrical geometry that is. I see the addition of the ramps as unbalancing the system and I think Mack may have already said that somewhere. I see a possible sticky point between the repulsing stator and the ramp leading to it. A challenge, for sure. But what do I know.

    Thanks Ufo for the iron attraction info. I was wondering if anyone had actually measured the pull between the two scenarios. It makes sense that the added energies of biasing the iron would increase the pull. Don't prosecute me for just calling magnetism energy. Its just easier that way.
    Take Care,
    Randy
    Last edited by tachyoncatcher; 09-07-2015, 05:22 PM.

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  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Originally posted by tachyoncatcher View Post
    Which is stronger, or is there a difference between the attraction forces of a magnet and iron. Versus the same magnet/pole and the same iron biased with a attracting (opposite) pole? I really don't know nor do I have the scales to test this.

    Thanks,

    Randy
    Randy,

    The answer to your (apparent) simple question, according to my experience is not simple.

    When you approach two magnets by their opposite poles, those two poles making contact actually disappear (effect that Ken Wheeler calls "Voidance"), and what was each magnets dielectric center plane at each... actually disappear to 'merge' right at the seal between both poles surfaces.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    If you "sandwich" a piece of iron between the same kind of approach, the dielectric plane merges right in the center of iron piece. So the iron serves as the bonding mass between both magnets.

    Getting to your question:

    1- When you approach a magnet to plain iron, that contacting pole just starts taking over the whole piece of iron. By logical deduction that contacting pole weakens related to the opposite one since it is expanding to a bigger volume mass.

    2- But, if you approach Magnet to an Influenced Iron by the opposite pole, it is a stronger reaction than previous example (1) just because is bonded by two attracting vectors, plus the other two exterior poles are also interacting by displacement of the Dielectric Plane.

    This reality applies exactly the same way by making contact...or merely approaching by an air gap.


    Anyways, that is my opinion...it may differ to other Members criteria...


    Regards


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-07-2015, 05:10 PM.

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  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Another Question

    Which is stronger, or is there a difference between the attraction forces of a magnet and iron. Versus the same magnet/pole and the same iron biased with a attracting (opposite) pole? I really don't know nor do I have the scales to test this.

    Thanks,

    Randy

    Leave a comment:


  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Sweet

    Thanks everyone! I will be using a variant of Ken's idea with some aluminum angle I have. I know, I know, eddy currents. Not perfect but maybe good enough. I do not have plastics or the machining tools for plastic/metal, only wood working tools. And lots of glue. I want to be able to adjust the angle 30-45 degrees as suggested. This will skew the center line unless I get things exact. As Mack said, easy to fail.

    Ufo's post #167 above is dead-nuts-on. Easy to test yourself. I did. I still think we will have to further scrutinize the interaction between the ramp being induced by a north rotor and the south stator. This is probably where shunts will be required.

    Thanks Again,

    Randy
    Last edited by tachyoncatcher; 09-07-2015, 03:59 PM.

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  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    If you can get it to work with two stator and two magnets, add the rest of the magnets on the rotor and it should work. All additional stators do is increase speed and torque. If it won't work with two stator and all the magnets on the rotor, it won't work.

    I agree to above Turion, it is just like a Two Pole conventional Motor will work same as a Four Pole...except more torque/speed on the later.


    Ufopolitics

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