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  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    The "Way" to make it work...

    Originally posted by shylo View Post
    I can get it to pull in ,or repel out ,at an inch away. It will shoot past away from the ramp a 1/2 inch. So place the next ramp 7/16 away from the first , to make it repeat.
    Shylo,

    If the Ramp is not exposing enough Throw Angle from Rotor Magnet in order to pass Max Line it is absolutely not good, then you will not proceed with a wrong design, but change, modify your Ramp(s)

    But when the 2nd ramp is added, it changes the 1st,...it ends up in balance.
    Not good friend...it was stated here there must be a bent of the ramps so that rotor magnet can not fully balance to center of ramp, just because it would be right in between two poles on iron ramp, one from stator and the other from rotor influence.

    You have to constantly change the balance, and you can't do that with stationary magnets and pieces of steel.
    Something has to move or better yet 2 things have to move, a rotor with magnets will just find an equal spot.
    Only if you knew a magnet alone is a constant, perpetual dynamic source...that keeps a constant movement in opposite rotating spirals from each polarized ends (what we all know as poles)...only then you will 'see' that it can be done.

    The purpose of the iron ramps is to redirect and constantly change (swap) according to positioning from ALL the magnets in the set ...Actually the Ramps are the ones that prevent from the rotor to reach a balance whenever they are fully doing their job the right way.

    There are magnetic motors in the past that were based on swapping ramps by constant mechanical movement...BroMikey has shown a video about it...I believe in another thread...HOWEVER, that is not the design explained by MadMack, where ramps are stationary...I also believed -in the beginning- that it was that way...but is not.


    Also any magnet should work neo or fridge ,just means your gaps have to be different.
    If 2 neo's have 1lb of pull force at an inch , 2 ceramics might need to be at a millimeter? The gap determines the force, not the type of magnet.
    IMHO, artv
    Negative, very weak magnets, like you mentioned "fridge", even at the closest gap possible will require very light rotor materials, plus very light (almost friction-less) bearings to spin a very thin shaft...success is about keeping NOT ONLY a magnetic balance BUT a mechanical COMPENSATION as well.

    IMO Neo's will be easier to work with, since would allow heavier and strong rotary sets, plus we can afford wider gaps.

    Originally posted by shylo View Post
    I have tried everything I can think of ,that's why I follow threads like this ,hoping to see something I haven't tried.
    It is the wrong approach coming to a new thread and bringing in all failures from previous bad models...that actually were not even close to the one displayed here.

    Starting by seeing an "almost empty half glass"...is not an encouraging way to start building whatever you are after...you must see it as "almost half full glass"...even though both terms point out an exact measurement of half glass of any liquid...

    The rotor having 2 magnets on it Is all you should need.
    Negative, a 2 rotor, 2 stator is just a Module here...it was recommended so we could test FIRST how to reach a perfect balancing where no cogging would be present...no magnetic drag...free wheeling rotor...THEN to calculate the best Ramp design that achieve the longest throw out or advance angles passing the center MAX force line....and then...Dispose of that set up and move to an ADVANCED ONE, reproducing that single Modular structure in a geometric fashion.

    There are only 2 forces push ,pull ,one has to be stronger. Place the ramp so it pulls the balanced rotor towards itself.
    Just your statement underlined and bold letters by me above, tells me you are starting the wrong way...it means you are NOT balancing forces between Repulse-Attract...HOWEVER, you are proceeding to install and test ramps, expecting ramps to "balance" by moving your rotor pass that line...of course this way it will never work for you!

    Let's say Attract is stronger than Repulse...so what?, it is simple, we have an All North or All South based Rotors...IF we have ALL NORTH Rotor Magnets, then the Stator facing South to Rotor will be the one executing Attraction AT ALL TIMES...Right?...then Balancing means that this South Stator MUST be further away THAN the North Facing Stator towards Rotor Magnets which happens to execute Repulsion all the time during operation...and no matter what rotation direction it goes.

    MadMack Second post here related to the issue:

    Originally posted by MadMack View Post

    As Dave pointed out, it's hard to find two magnets with the exact same strength. Generally, the field varies inversely by the square of distance, at close spacing anyway, so a simple mechanical test rig can be made to determine which magnets are closest in strength. Alternately it can be used to find the weakest magnet, then to determine the distance at which the other magnets exhibit the same strength. Then you can know the clearance to use with the individual magnets. Do this with both the rotor and stator magnets before construction begins.
    The way stated here is to adjust Stators ONLY by moving them across their line set at 180 running through the rotor shaft center, meaning if you have an All North Rotor, then you would set the South Stator further away than the North Stator facing rotor magnets untill you observe no cogging or friction when rotor magnet passes by.

    So, you MUST DO this BEFORE engaging in Ramps design or even testing them!


    The rotor will travel to the ramp ,hit its' limit and then move back and come to rest.
    But where it hits it limit, before it moves back, is where you have to place the next ramp, but 180deg. away so it doesn't affect the first.

    artv
    Obviously you are at attraction stage above with a Non Balanced set...

    Balance Your Set up FIRST WITHOUT Ramps...then start playing with Ramps...or you will keep getting frustrated during the time of your build.

    This is all about a PERFECTLY BUILD GEOMETRIC SET IN PERFECT BALANCE and the Spacing between Rotor Magnets MUST BE PERFECTLY SET APART BY either 45 for eight poles or 60 for six pole motor...So whatever your decision to make it would be...even 4 poles at 90...they must be at those specific Angle separations.

    This Rotor MUST BE PERFECTLY BALANCED NOT ONLY MECHANICALLY (BALANCE BASED ON CENTER SHAFT EQUILIBRIUM) BUT MAGNETICALLY...once ALL Magnets are set there...below are MadMack comments about it:

    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    ...

    Now might be a good time to review the part in my first post about the rotor magnets and torque. Balance the rotor like you would a lawn mower blade.
    I would go even with higher precision than a lawn mower blade...I would balance it like the whole rotor assembly from a Helicopter... but the point is...

    Do you have an idea how to balance a lawn mower blade?...first, there is a tool dedicated to set the blade on top:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    It must be set on a leveled and flat surface...and if it is balanced it must be the same exact measurement from both sides to ground...even when spinning it slowly...it shouldn't wobble.

    The Magnetic Motor Rotor should be balanced this way...I will sharpen to a point the shaft...and place it on flat surface...it must be straight up keeping its surface parallel to base level...

    HOWEVER, to do this operation, Rotor MUST have ALL magnets mounted to it!...so your so affirmative statement below is NOT RIGHT:

    The rotor having 2 magnets on it Is all you should need.
    The Ramps positioning and design comes WAY later...and are the ones to modify their SPEC'S, like length, thickness and shape...plus other parameters like material to use, angle, deviating curvatures etc according to the results you observe during testing.

    Lousy and miss aligned, miss-balanced set ups will never work...we must be very careful and precise, accurate through the whole build.

    I don't believe that everyone is capable of building this kind of machine that really works if they do not have the patience, dedication and tools and materials to make it happen...plus pay careful attention to details.


    Good luck in your builds and testing Shylo.


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-11-2015, 01:52 PM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
    Ok Guys,

    2- Or should they all be opposite to the North ones?


    C'mon guys...get your lazy minds to work!!


    Ufopolitics

    I think opposite. Because that is the repulsion side and the iron

    should help to over come the repulsion? You mean the red shunts?

    You do call them shunts don't you?

    Leave a comment:


  • shylo
    replied
    Hi Dave, Sorry about the fire.
    I have tried everything I can think of ,that's why I follow threads like this ,hoping to see something I haven't tried.
    The rotor having 2 magnets on it Is all you should need. There are only 2 forces push ,pull ,one has to be stronger. Place the ramp so it pulls the balanced rotor towards itself. The rotor will travel to the ramp ,hit its' limit and then move back and come to rest.
    But where it hits it limit, before it moves back, is where you have to place the next ramp, but 180deg. away so it doesn't affect the first.

    Hopefully the fire detoured around your place, be a shame to lose everything.
    artv

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  • Mario
    replied
    Very sorry to hear that Dave. I wish you and your wife (and dogs) all the best.

    Mario

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  • gotoluc
    replied
    Sorry to hear that Dave... hope you have insurance coverage?

    Please give us an update when you know for sure what the damages are.

    Luc

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Turion View Post
    But I'll be back.

    I blame it all on the men in black. I think they were on the other side of the fire, huffing and puffing and blowing it my way. Anything to stop the research!

    Dave

    There goes all of your hard work remodeling and your wife is going

    to be cracking the whip for 2 years Just wait and see, maybe it

    ain't gonna ruin your motors. The insurance companies gotta foot the bill.


    If it really is gone you will be livin high on the hog in hotels.

    You'll be like a fish out of water sitting around like a calf staring at

    a new fence.


    Well we can count on you for coaching

    I'm just glad you are safe.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-11-2015, 02:38 AM.

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  • Turion
    replied
    Rotor

    shylo,
    Have you tried it with all the magnets on the rotor and only 2 ramps. Until you can get continued rotation with all the rotor magnets and just two stator magnets and 2 ramps, there is no use going any further. Additional ramps won't add to the effect.

    I am on hold for a few days. ???????
    We had to evacuate our home because of a wildfire and the house down the street I've been remodeling for my mom is also in the path of destruction. So my latest prototype may be burning up as we speak, and the UPS man won't have any house to deliver my magnets to. Sucks for him! At least I got out with my wife, my dogs and my laptop. There's not much chance we didn't lose everything since we can see the arial views of the fire on the news, and it's right where our place is/was. It may be a while before I have a shop up and running again. So for a while at least, I'm going to be one of those guys who just talks a lot and doesn't build.
    But I'll be back.

    I blame it all on the men in black. I think they were on the other side of the fire, huffing and puffing and blowing it my way. Anything to stop the research!

    Dave

    Leave a comment:


  • shylo
    replied
    I can get it to pull in ,or repel out ,at an inch away. It will shoot past away from the ramp a 1/2 inch. So place the next ramp 7/16 away from the first , to make it repeat.
    But when the 2nd ramp is added, it changes the 1st,...it ends up in balance.
    You have to constantly change the balance, and you can't do that with stationary magnets and pieces of steel.
    Something has to move or better yet 2 things have to move, a rotor with magnets will just find an equal spot.
    Also any magnet should work neo or fridge ,just means your gaps have to be different.
    If 2 neo's have 1lb of pull force at an inch , 2 ceramics might need to be at a millimeter? The gap determines the force, not the type of magnet.
    IMHO, artv

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    MOT to Ramps...

    Originally posted by BroMikey View Post
    What do you think of my MOT core material evolution? Not that I would

    use a core like that. Just that the ramps in your diagram have the symmetry

    of an "E" core
    .

    Mikey,


    Make sure according to the size of your Magnet it can be pivoted all the way to the stators line where air gap starts like I show on CAD below:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Too wide magnets require wider ramps 'shoulders'...like the ones shown on upper left pic


    Take care

    U.P

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Originally posted by BroMikey View Post
    What do you think of my MOT core material evolution? Not that I was

    use a core like that. Just that the ramps in your diagram function

    like an "E" core does.

    Hey Mikey,

    That looks awesome!...I believe they will work out beautiful!!

    Just make Two of them, same height as magnets...to test them in the 180 Module...

    Thanks and Regards


    Ufopolitics

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    What do you think of my MOT core material evolution? Not that I would

    use a core like that. Just that the ramps in your diagram have the symmetry

    of an "E" core
    .

    Last edited by BroMikey; 09-10-2015, 10:00 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
    Hello BroMikey,


    First, your magnets are too thin''''''''''''''''''''''''''

    Second, your ramps are also too thin''''''''''''''''''''''''''

    Third,'''''''''''''''''''''''''if you are getting some deviation there is just due to iron and magnet attraction...but not due to magnetic field distortion/expansion from induction.


    Regards

    Ufopolitics



    Give up? Disappointed? Throw myself in the floor? How did you know?

    I already did all that and I'm back with a vengeance.

    Just a little joke, on the contrary Sir I receive all of the above as good

    sound instruction and coming from a credible source of the subject.

    You are indeed a gentlemen. Kind of shocking to find on these

    boards, I know but non the less.



    First I agree about the thin magnets so I pulled out my cheaters last

    night and put some Neo's on the back of those weaklings. I have 50 of

    those 1" X 1/8th" and wow wee they are strong. Only a stop gap test

    late in the early hours.


    Second I realized my ramps were to thin but I figured if it worked a little

    that as I pile up more lamination's the force would get stronger.


    ThirdI am still giving this one more thought so expect to hear

    back from me when I begin to understand your important direction.

    Thanks for the new graphics, it lets me see how far away I am thinking

    about the shapes.

    I see they are equal on both sides and curled back on the ends just like

    I have seen with my rotor ramps and shunts. I need to use more metal

    on the ramps and I did, I just didn't show everyone. I am using MOT

    blocks that are not bent.

    I can't wait to see someone do another real video of a runner.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Ramps 2

    Ok Guys,

    I just don't want to load this thread with a lot of graphics in each step...but here is just so you see the way the tilted outer fields affect rotor magnets which are all oriented the same way (All North on this case).

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Notice I have increased the Rake Angle to Max (exactly to the Air Gap Line)

    Now picture how the Attraction Raking Angle (South Outer Stators) should take place on this graphic in order to increase speed even more...?

    1- Same way as the North Ramps Shaded Blue Arrows are displayed ?

    2- Or should they all be opposite to the North ones?


    C'mon guys...get your lazy minds to work!!


    Ufopolitics

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Eight Poles Modules...

    Originally posted by mkt3920 View Post


    Originally posted by MadMack View Post

    One set of magnets every 45 degrees works well. Magnets at 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees in attraction. Magnets at 45, 135, 225, and 315 degrees in repulsion. This balances the side forces to the rotor shaft and stator housing.
    I assume the underlined statement is a simple mistake, or am I missing something? It is not in line with his other statements about having balance of opposing sides (attract and repel, opposite each other). I am not trying to be picky, just reading and rereading every word. With 8 positions (every 45 degrees) you end up with pair of "same" polarity stator magnets next to each other when you have balance across from each (through the rotor shaft). Six position motor does not have this issue, as seen in UFOpolitics latest graphic. The stator magnets are +, -, +, -,+,- around the circumference and still opposite each other through the rotor shaft.
    Kent
    Hello Mkt3920,

    It is not a mistake from Mad Mack...but you are right...the "Modularity" disposition here is no longer across shaft at 180...We can not do it with 8 poles...so here is every 45 (adjacent) or could be every 135...whichever you feel more comfortable with...

    Look at Charly's post and image:

    Originally posted by charly2 View Post
    MadMack, first thanks for sharing, this

    is the mental image I got from your explanation, the missing

    part in the image is the iron ramp pivoted in the middle of it

    and located between stator magnets and in its correct

    disposition.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Then Mack's response to it:

    Originally posted by MadMack View Post

    Charly2, yes that is what I described. Think bigger diameter &

    more side spacing between magnets.


    Regards


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 09-10-2015, 05:48 PM.

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  • mkt3920
    replied
    Balance

    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    One set of magnets every 45 degrees works well. Magnets at 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees in attraction. Magnets at 45, 135, 225, and 315 degrees in repulsion. This balances the side forces to the rotor shaft and stator housing.
    Mack
    I assume the underlined statement is a simple mistake, or am I missing something? It is not in line with his other statements about having balance of opposing sides (attract and repel, opposite each other). I am not trying to be picky, just reading and rereading every word. With 8 positions (every 45 degrees) you end up with pair of "same" polarity stator magnets next to each other when you have balance across from each (through the rotor shaft). Six position motor does not have this issue, as seen in UFOpolitics latest graphic. The stator magnets are +, -, +, -,+,- around the circumference and still opposite each other through the rotor shaft.
    Kent

    Leave a comment:

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