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  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Repulsion Node

    Thanks Mack! Good information. Easier to grind away than to start over due to shortness.

    Cheers,

    Randy

    Leave a comment:


  • MadMack
    replied
    Someone asked if it's all in the ramps, I think that was Shylo if I remember correctly. Yes, other than the balanced magnets it's all in the ramps.

    Let me explain some of my theory in simple terms. I may be dead wrong technically and over simplifying but this seems to hold up in practice.

    We are dealing with the multi-pole motor here, not just the 2 pole test device. By the time you assemble a whole motor your ramps must be made with the correct non-retentive material and you must take eddy current prevention seriously.

    This is with the ramp for the attraction set.
    If a magnet has 10,000 gauss at the pole, that amount enters into the ramp minus the reluctance of an air gap. Say it's now 6000. The iron in the ramp carries the 6000 and the magnet accelerates along the ramp due to the decreasing gap which lowers the reluctance and the ramp ends up taking 8000 by the time the acceleration is over. This is assuming there is sufficient cross section in the ramp to carry 8000. Now we change the attraction vector by changing the shape of the ramp. It's still carrying 8000 in attraction to the rotor magnet but at 0 rotational force. The rotor is coasting because the attraction is divided to both sides at a 90 degree angle to the ramp. We have to escape from this attraction and the only way to do it is to decrease the ramp cross section so that it will no longer carry that amount of flux. If you angle the tines away, or increase their distance from the rotor you change the vector and introduce negative rotational force. We reduce the cross section to where the ramp can only carry 2000. But we have to provide someplace for the rest of the 8000 from the rotor magnet to go. As the gauss to the first ramp is decreasing, provide, at the right time, a path of lesser reluctance and bigger cross section for the rotor magnet flux so by the time the first ramp is down to 2000 the next ramp has taken up 4000 at a vector that will aid rotation. When the rotor needs to break free of the 2000 in the first ramp there is 4000 pulling it into the next ramp so there is a gain instead of a loss. If the first ramp is still able to carry 6000 then the rotor stops dead in it's tracks or even reverses. So you may have a perfectly shaped ramp but if has too much cross section at the end for your particular rotor magnet you've shot yourself in the foot.

    For the repulsion set, if you have a distinct kick away from the end of the ramp you might not want to extend the ramp and cut down it's cross section more. You might want the rotor magnet to travel a ways without a ramp but have the rotor magnet flux make the transition to the next ramp before the flux to the first ramp yanks it back. Otherwise, if you don't have that kick away but do have good acceleration then use a scenario similar to the attraction set.

    The flux from the rotor magnet will take the path of least resistance. If two paths are present the flux will divide proportionally to the over all reluctance of each path. The reluctance is the sum of the air gap plus the reluctance of the ramp material, which increases with the length of the material the flux travels through and the distance of the air gap.

    Best Regards,
    Mack

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    This is how I learn. I made this ramp and another one larger.

    This one is way way way way to much mass for my tiny magnets.

    So this next time I'll know to make it with less mass, especially

    on the tines but all the way around too. Just thought I would let you

    all know. I have some others I'll show in the future as well.

    One thing is sure, I have learned much with shapes and angles.

    It's only a matter of time. I have one ramp that has

    2 separate acceleration events. But the better one accelerates

    all through it's entire length.

    Another thing I am realizing is just how different the repulsion

    is compared to the attraction side an vise a versa. I say that because

    I see now most of my ramp exploration has been done using the

    attraction side and when I switch to repulsion I almost go into

    some sort of shock. That is because this other side behaves strangely

    when you are caught off guard, I mean night and day. In the beginning

    of my investigation it seemed like I could just pick a side and then

    go to the other, and there was not much difference.


    It is very important to spend time on each side with separate tests
    .
    Last edited by BroMikey; 10-14-2015, 09:34 AM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by tachyoncatcher View Post
    A vision without action is merely a dream. Action without a vision just passes the time. A vision with action can change the world. Folks, lets build a dream!

    Randy
    I had a few minutes to burn at the end of the day so I made a better

    ramp. You were right Randy, with all of the sculpture work it took

    me a full hour to cut this ramp from a plate of 3/8" steel. I should

    have busted out my 8 foot horizontal band-saw had I known this chop-saw

    was going to fight me. When the metal gets to hot then cool it down

    because when it glows red the cut stops. I think I like UFO's idea by

    adding the right size pieces together. Even a good saws-all if big enough

    with the metal cutting blade would work.

    No matter
    .














    Last edited by BroMikey; 10-14-2015, 08:01 AM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    Intermission time.
    Mind if I tell you all a story? A true story, not some make believe stuff.

    Dreams are weird, you know? I rarely dream but a few years ago I had one of those really vivid ones, the kind that feel soooo real.

    I was in an amusement park at night. There was a crowd around me, I could smell popcorn and cotton candy on the breeze, and hear kids shrieking in delight on the roller coaster off in the distance. I was happy and I was waiting in line to get on this ride. When it's my turn I get into the little car, lower the safety bar, and it slowly starts forward, jerking and clacking along the tracks into a narrow dark tunnel. In the tunnel it's so dark I can't see anything at all, and I start to get that nervous anticipation you feel when you 'just know' something is about to happen. Then up ahead I see a faint glow above the track. I can't make it out at first, then as I get closer I see the glow is the ceiling of the tunnel and it's getting lower. Just as I reach this glowing part of the ceiling the car suddenly lurches forward hard enough to jerk my head back and the ceiling gets as bright as a spot light as it lowers down right toward my face. The ceiling splits apart and it gets really close, just above my head on each side of me and man I'm really moving now. A split second later the light passes right over my head and the car starts to coast. I'm just coasting along the track at a good clip and I can still see the ceiling close on each side but it's glow is fading fast now and it's getting dark in here again. The car is starting to slow and I think, "heh, well that was a rush", and instantly my head snaps back, the ceiling is glaring white right at my face again and the whole thing repeats, again, then again, over and over, faster and faster until the wind is roaring in my ears and everything is just a blur. I'm hanging on to the safety bar for dear life, heart in my throat, wind in my face so strong I can hardly breathe... then I woke up practically in a panic.

    Stupid damn dream. Scared the hell out of me.

    Mack
    Hey Mack

    Good one man.

    I got one for ya.

    When I was very young there were a lot of bully's in the hood. It was
    mid 1960's and we were about to have a race riot in Detroit so here is
    my dream.

    I couldn't tell if I was a wake or a sleep, I was running and running. The
    wind was strong and I was headed down hill as I ran. The gusts came
    up and I ran and ran this long down hill run. Every once in a while the wind
    seem to lift me up and this was so so fun.

    Each night for many months I kept having this dream. Then I would lift off
    and the reason was I was being chased by the hood bully's and I would
    get away.

    After about 6 months of this dream almost every night some nights not
    so clear or vivid, I flew up over the power lines and could rest down on
    the tops of all of the large building, say 2-3 stories tall no more.

    I could then jump and get back to the ground it was so fun, every night.

    In fact I knew the dream was coming and looked forward to flying once
    again, till one night I was sure it wasn't even a dream and woke up in
    my dream went and got everyone to show them my flying abilities.
    As I began to show them how I could lift off, I woke up.
    I can fly and have for years in my dreams.

    My dream stopped till last year I had it reoccur

    Break over now let's put our heads together and tuning this bad boy.

    Oh alright, I'll make it spin the other way.

    Last edited by BroMikey; 10-14-2015, 07:18 AM.

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  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Your dream, My vision

    A vision without action is merely a dream. Action without a vision just passes the time. A vision with action can change the world. Folks, lets build a dream!

    Randy

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    Intermission time.
    Mind if I tell you all a story? A true story, not some make believe stuff.

    Dreams are weird, you know? I rarely dream but a few years ago I had one of those really vivid ones, the kind that feel soooo real.

    I was in an amusement park at night. There was a crowd around me, I could smell popcorn and cotton candy on the breeze, and hear kids shrieking in delight on the roller coaster off in the distance. I was happy and I was waiting in line to get on this ride. When it's my turn I get into the little car, lower the safety bar, and it slowly starts forward, jerking and clacking along the tracks into a narrow dark tunnel. In the tunnel it's so dark I can't see anything at all, and I start to get that nervous anticipation you feel when you 'just know' something is about to happen. Then up ahead I see a faint glow above the track. I can't make it out at first, then as I get closer I see the glow is the ceiling of the tunnel and it's getting lower. Just as I reach this glowing part of the ceiling the car suddenly lurches forward hard enough to jerk my head back and the ceiling gets as bright as a spot light as it lowers down right toward my face. The ceiling splits apart and it gets really close, just above my head on each side of me and man I'm really moving now. A split second later the light passes right over my head and the car starts to coast. I'm just coasting along the track at a good clip and I can still see the ceiling close on each side but it's glow is fading fast now and it's getting dark in here again. The car is starting to slow and I think, "heh, well that was a rush", and instantly my head snaps back, the ceiling is glaring white right at my face again and the whole thing repeats, again, then again, over and over, faster and faster until the wind is roaring in my ears and everything is just a blur. I'm hanging on to the safety bar for dear life, heart in my throat, wind in my face so strong I can hardly breathe... then I woke up practically in a panic.

    Stupid damn dream. Scared the hell out of me.

    Mack
    Incredible dream Mack!...what a vivid description of a rush in that ride!

    Except I climbed in your cart...to see by myself basically when :
    The ceiling splits apart and it gets really close, just above my head on each side of me and man I'm really moving now.
    Was the name of that ride "The Split Ramping Carts" ?...

    Thanks for sharing your dream!


    Regards


    Ufopolitcs
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 10-13-2015, 09:46 PM.

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  • Cornboy 555
    replied
    Magnet.

    That's Funny Mack, bet you felt just like a rotor magnet, inside a magnet motor mounted in an E bike or something.

    Regards Cornboy.

    Leave a comment:


  • MadMack
    replied
    Take a break.

    Intermission time.
    Mind if I tell you all a story? A true story, not some make believe stuff.

    Dreams are weird, you know? I rarely dream but a few years ago I had one of those really vivid ones, the kind that feel soooo real.

    I was in an amusement park at night. There was a crowd around me, I could smell popcorn and cotton candy on the breeze, and hear kids shrieking in delight on the roller coaster off in the distance. I was happy and I was waiting in line to get on this ride. When it's my turn I get into the little car, lower the safety bar, and it slowly starts forward, jerking and clacking along the tracks into a narrow dark tunnel. In the tunnel it's so dark I can't see anything at all, and I start to get that nervous anticipation you feel when you 'just know' something is about to happen. Then up ahead I see a faint glow above the track. I can't make it out at first, then as I get closer I see the glow is the ceiling of the tunnel and it's getting lower. Just as I reach this glowing part of the ceiling the car suddenly lurches forward hard enough to jerk my head back and the ceiling gets as bright as a spot light as it lowers down right toward my face. The ceiling splits apart and it gets really close, just above my head on each side of me and man I'm really moving now. A split second later the light passes right over my head and the car starts to coast. I'm just coasting along the track at a good clip and I can still see the ceiling close on each side but it's glow is fading fast now and it's getting dark in here again. The car is starting to slow and I think, "heh, well that was a rush", and instantly my head snaps back, the ceiling is glaring white right at my face again and the whole thing repeats, again, then again, over and over, faster and faster until the wind is roaring in my ears and everything is just a blur. I'm hanging on to the safety bar for dear life, heart in my throat, wind in my face so strong I can hardly breathe... then I woke up practically in a panic.

    Stupid damn dream. Scared the hell out of me.

    Mack

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
    It is ok Randy,

    Ok, let's say Ramps could be the same length, but what about cross sections?...the same/equal downgrading for both cross sections?
    Here is the best I can do for today. You are right UFO based on this

    picture. You moving the ramp over is the same as reducing tine mass.

    Well not exactly but your experiment corrects the problem some what.

    This picture may be one answer?


    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Originally posted by tachyoncatcher View Post
    I must suck as a communicator. Ufo, I did not say to make the ramps the same. Only to make them the same length. The ends are terminated differently as we expect different results due to the polarities of the stators. In the attraction node we are trying to minimize the forces in the end of the ramp. In the repulsion node we are using the ramp end forces to help neutralize some of the repulsive forces. That is what my tests are showing me. There may be even better ways, but this is what I'm building the full model on.

    Cheers,

    Randy
    It is ok Randy,

    Ok, let's say Ramps could be the same length, but what about cross sections?...the same/equal downgrading for both cross sections?

    That was the main point of my previous post ...if they are the same length, and same X-Section reduction, rotor magnets will find balance at ramps no matter what you do. And in the best of results will slow down rotor speed. Exactly what happened on my first video.

    About the ramps ends (tines)...I really found out that by setting the ends right on the space of the very tip of stators, diminishes the stator field strength considerably for either North or South, no matter about cross section nor about bending tips, (and of course, thinner iron ends will decrease strength less than full X-Section) ....I don't know if you have made that particular test, if not, please do and you will see what I mean...it just take to rake the ramp to the middle of magnet versus being on very top and observing rotation behavior. Therefore, after we have a running motor...I believe by getting ramps ends toward stator's ends will reduce speed instead of acceleration or speed gain.

    On my last video...I was gonna make it longer by making different settings with ramps raking and testing...but time did not allow me to...However, I did those tests...and when we set ramps ends at tip of stators, the rotor losses Power Stroke strength previously observed when they were at center of stator magnets.

    Again, this are all our assumptions on a Motor which is not our invention nor design...so I will say like the old but wise saying..."I just know that I know absolutely nothing, nada..."...


    Regards


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 10-13-2015, 02:26 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Communications

    I must suck as a communicator. Ufo, I did not say to make the ramps the same. Only to make them the same length. The ends are terminated differently as we expect different results due to the polarities of the stators. In the attraction node we are trying to minimize the forces in the end of the ramp. In the repulsion node we are using the ramp end forces to help neutralize some of the repulsive forces. That is what my tests are showing me. There may be even better ways, but this is what I'm building the full model on.

    Cheers,

    Randy

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    About Video Ramps...

    Originally posted by tachyoncatcher View Post
    Ufo,
    You are so close. I see two tweaks to try that could put you over the edge. Put the bottom ramp that you had in the first video back on. Exactly as you had it.
    Hey Tachyon,

    The previous ramp on video has now become iron dust...because of so much grinding, cutting, bending modifications...
    But it is ok, I am making more...

    You were getting great acceleration from that ramp on the repulsion node.
    The acceleration you were observing on first video was due to only having two rotor magnets very apart...there was not another magnet following the one interacting, but with a space of 180...everything changes once you add all rotor magnets there my friend...

    That is why Mack writes to test ramps separately first...then together...as other adjustments are required every time you add components here.

    Take the top ramp from the second video and bring the tine ends down, closer to the rotor. Mack did say 0 force vector. That would be 90 degrees from the face of the rotor magnet. Think of the force as lines parallel to the center line of the magnet, 90 degrees to that. Said another way, beside the face. Also, you will want the arc to get closer to the rotor until you reach the stator then match the circumference of the rotor until the end.
    I already try that...and I thought exactly like you do, perpendicular, 90 degrees, and it could be away or pointing...same thing the way I see it...but then Mack said to keep tines parallel to rotor circumference to make it zero drag/zero force, and it works.

    You are so close Buddy! I don't think you have to have different lengths of ramps as the contributions to motion happen at different times. The attraction node is first, then the repulsion node at about 2/3 down the ramp and past the end. Counter intuitive I know, but that is the way it looks to me. I think our traveling South fields is messing with the rotor fields to give it that little extra oomph at the end.

    As I said, I'm a wage slave, so I have very little precious time for this. No time for waiting on Youtube uploads. I'll throw some snapshots up later for you.

    Back to the shop,

    Randy
    Randy, if we make those two ramps identical, plus set them symmetrically apart...then rotor magnets will tend to seek balance within identical cross sections-of iron mass, slowing down...not gaining acceleration. That is exactly what happens on my first video when I added both identical ramps...and that is where Mack wrote about his opposite ramps not being identical.

    Therefore, I have no idea how did you get to the conclusion below, if ramps were identical and set at the same rotation travel...:

    The attraction node is first, then the repulsion node at about 2/3 down the ramp and past the end.
    I am getting excellent results by not setting them exactly at the same timing, plus making them different, say ramp 1 starts and when it is becoming thinner then ramp 2 starts with heavier cross section. Rotor magnets can not find balance between uneven ramps, even at very low speeds.

    Is just like Mack wrote..."we do not have same type of magnetic interactions, therefore ramps can not be the same"...however, both fulfilling the same purpose, accelerating rotor towards stators center line.

    I believe once we get this rotor to keep spinning the 360, even not steadily...even with "bumps" (sudden accelerations, plus slow downs) in between, even at very low speeds...Then we could say we are "almost" there...


    Regards


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 10-13-2015, 02:23 PM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    ..............I can only explain how this works in layman's terms. The back pull from a ramp has to be eliminated or dissipated as much as possible. The rotor acceleration has to extend to the point where the next ramp can start to take hold of the rotor magnet before any remaining back pull from the previous ramp can exert itself.



    Watch the video again about 1:07. You can see the acceleration out to about 210 clockwise degrees from vertical, then there is a tug that slows the rotor back down. It's not enough to stop the rotor but it does slow it down. Ufo, I do not want to discourage you but the two ramps in the video need more work. I hinted at that in my last post. The bottom one is OK but could be just a little better. The opposite ramps are not identical in my motors, in case that helps.

    This motor is similar to an internal combustion engine in this sense; the power produced is a sum of the power pulses in time. The more pulses per second, the higher the rate of power produced. It's the same with a gas engine, more HP as the rpm increases.


    BroMikey,
    At 2:46 you can see the rotor magnet experience a strong back pull right past the end of the top ramp.

    Regards,
    Mack
    Thanks again Mack

    I knew there was a reason that all of the ramps had be on, to get a motor

    but this post helped me to see more on just how each ramp must be

    perfectly spaced out to pass the ball to the next ramp. I heard you say

    this before but this time I understood it better. Also the attraction ramp

    needs to be different than the repulsion as you have stated so that the

    small amount of pull back left over comes after the next ramp engages.

    Also as stated before the attraction side is stronger when we did the

    cancellation step and it has been in the back of my mind that each side

    being a different "EVENT" would need to be dealt with on a come what

    may basis. I see that by having two ramps the same we are close but

    no cigar. I think I am almost there. Sprocket did offer the right answer

    and I will cut down my attraction side tines quite a bit smaller as a matter

    of tuning. Thanks for being consistent and hanging in there til this all

    has been reread a few times plus repeats.



    As far as I can tell the size of the rotor circle will be found by the size

    of the ramps based on the power of the magnets. After an experimenter

    gets a pair of ramps (A CELL) and 4 magnets spinning up without to much

    cogging, then another "CELL" is placed next to the existing "CELL" at just

    the right location. That location being just before the tiny left over cogging

    from the previous "CELL" stammers a twinge. At this point that small amount

    of back slash takes place during the "Power Stroke" of the adjacent ramp.

    Then on to the next "CELL" for the same process. I know this all sounds

    like a boring repeat but I can't help it, this is the way I learn things.

    Tonight is the first time I got this part of the build.





    Also I read your instruction that you state builders perform "step one" which

    is the cancellation step, next to do a single ramp test such as the repulsion

    side ramp then next remove that ramp and go to the other side and do the

    same tests on the attraction side. So what I think the reason is for doing

    each test separate is to learn the differences in the effects for each side.

    Such as small changes of push or pull and where these forces "PLACE"

    of the circle of degrees. This way I believe we could see that if the same

    ramp is used on both sides but only one at a time, we would see that in

    order to keep a balance when both ramps are present, we would begin to

    reason how ramps might be altered to resolve cogging issues.





    I don't see a video yet where this instruction was followed. There is so

    much material to read already it will take all of us reminding one another

    for quite some time before all of this becomes common place.



    Originally posted by tachyoncatcher View Post

    Take the top ramp from the second video and bring the tine ends down, closer to the rotor. Mack did say 0 force vector. That would be 90 degrees from the face of the rotor magnet. Think of the force as lines parallel to the center line of the magnet, 90 degrees to that. Said another way, beside the face. Also, you will want the arc to get closer to the rotor until you reach the stator then match the circumference of the rotor until the end.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 10-13-2015, 09:13 AM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post

    The back pull from a ramp has to be eliminated or dissipated as much as possible.

    The rotor acceleration has to extend to the point where the next ramp can start to take hold of the rotor magnet before any remaining back pull from the previous ramp can exert itself.

    Watch the video again about 1:07. You can see the acceleration out to about 210 clockwise degrees from vertical, then there is a tug that slows the rotor back down. It's not enough to stop the rotor but it does slow it down. Ufo, I do not want to discourage you but the two ramps in the video need more work. I hinted at that in my last post. The bottom one is OK but could be just a little better. The opposite ramps are not identical in my motors, in case that helps.


    BroMikey,
    At 2:46 you can see the rotor magnet experience a strong back pull right past the end of the top ramp.

    Regards,
    Mack
    Thanks for baring with me a little MackEither the kids are yelling,
    or I am at work and my head is splitting, or some reason I can't concentrate.
    So what I can't stop. It is a wonder I can even post. I put a red X on that last mess I posted so try this instead.


    @Sprocket

    Thank you.

    @UFO

    The attraction RAMP looks like this. A day late and a dollar short I know. That's what you get for telling me to shut up. It's finally sinkin in. Remove that top ramp and follow my lead.



    Originally posted by sprocket View Post
    I may be way off but this is the way I interpret what MadMack is saying - once the ramp has done its job and at its closest point to the rotor, reduce the tine cross-section but continued along the rotor's arc of travel. The plan view would show it similarly being reduced to form a point.

    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    Good. Not such an abrupt drop on the tines, take longer to reduce it smoothly.
    This is on the attraction node (I like that term).

    Regards,
    Mack












    Last edited by BroMikey; 10-13-2015, 09:30 AM.

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