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  • wantomake
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    Wantomake,
    I see Ufo already answered but I'll post this anyway.
    Ufo is right, you need to get the rotor magnet sets as close to 180 degrees apart as you can, and his 3 point reference is spot on. It doesn't take a machine shop to do it, all I used to lay it out was a compass, a straight edge, and a 30-60-90 triangle. I found that a hobbyist's X-acto saw from the local hobby store was good for the sides of the magnet cutouts. Just be as accurate as you can when laying it out and cutting and be prepared to do some filing and shimming to get it just right.

    This picture shows how I drew my layout. My reference for the angle is different than Ufo's but on a 12” rotor it's only 2.72 degrees different from his. It's more important to make all the angles the same.

    Mack

    PS. Hey, that's my age too. 62 anyway. There must be something about kids born in the early 50's, eh? Like fallout from the A-bomb tests?
    Hey Ufo,
    No I did read your entire post. But the confusion is where your north and south poles are. Mack doesn't indicate the poles on the diagram from that post. I just assumed the pole is facing the 30° edge he shows. But your cad shows the setup you use and that clears it up.

    It's easy for me to try that orientation cause my 1/2" rotor mags have the hole in them and can be turned.

    Back to the shop and thanks ole friend,
    wantomake
    PS: Mine is set as Macks diagram.
    Last edited by wantomake; 10-21-2015, 04:25 PM.

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  • lorinrandone
    replied
    In the private of each member of this team will be the last video uploaded by me.
    Good luck

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    30 Degrees Difference, same Rotation...

    Hello Guys,


    @Mikey and Wantomake: Hmmm......I can see that you guys, did not read my previous post...just watched the video...

    I wrote there that I was using this time the way Mack has displayed the way he gets the 30º Angle, versus the one I has been using previously...On real model plus in previous CAD Diagrams.

    The difference is that the 30º is taken from different reference lines, however, for both cases the rotation is exactly the same.

    Mack's previous Post:(<<<LINK TO ORIGINAL POST)

    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    Wantomake,
    I see Ufo already answered but I'll post this anyway.
    Ufo is right, you need to get the rotor magnet sets as close to 180 degrees apart as you can, and his 3 point reference is spot on. It doesn't take a machine shop to do it, all I used to lay it out was a compass, a straight edge, and a 30-60-90 triangle. I found that a hobbyist's X-acto saw from the local hobby store was good for the sides of the magnet cutouts. Just be as accurate as you can when laying it out and cutting and be prepared to do some filing and shimming to get it just right.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    This picture shows how I drew my layout. My reference for the angle is different than Ufo's but on a 12” rotor it's only 2.72 degrees different from his. It's more important to make all the angles the same.

    Mack
    Now, below are both diagrams together, next to each others, Mack's and mine...for easier comparison:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    ROTATION IS EXACTLY THE SAME FOR BOTH CASES.

    Now, I find Mack's Angle "more aggressive" from the rotation standpoint benefit and based mainly on the Repulsion Thrust, besides is much more easier to set the center alignment line between both opposite rotor magnets apart by 180º.

    @Mikey: I believe am getting more repulse thrust on this latest set up, but I will compare videos in slow motion...besides, like I wrote previously...I am not done modifying that repulse ramp yet...I still have to thin cross-section a bit more towards the ends, and that would add even more throw out angle. This latest repulse ramp has almost equal cross sections all the way to end...so it is somehow restricting acceleration.

    Related to smooth versus coarser iron surfaces and "passing by" magnetic fields...I believe this issue must be analyzed from almost a microscopic way, where coarser surfaces have heavy grindings with deeper grooves where the field "sinks in", plus each deep streak reflects different and random angles to the field which is PERFECTLY DIRECTIONAL.

    A smooth, basically even and aligned surface would be offering lesser resistance to the field rotation.

    This is only my opinion...so, don't take it for "granted" until you experiment and see it for yourselves...


    Well, getting back to work...got to add another module with ramps probably today.


    Regards to all


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 10-21-2015, 01:11 PM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    I decided to go into the lab for a few more tests because after
    realizing I was going the right way from the beginning maybe I
    am now going in reverse. Oh well Mack did say it goes into reverse.

    Here is what happened. I had been going one direction for 2 weeks and
    then I just recently changed direction. So I have given ample time to
    both directions as far as ramping goes.

    BUT I had never before set out to try both directions one after the
    other with all of my ramps, with or without a stator.

    This is my conclusion.

    The field angle pointed at the ramp in the distance as it comes around
    picks up the field much more powerfully. Once the rotor magnets get
    over their stator magnets the force is cancelled leaving very little
    kickback at the ramps end. So momentum from ramping over comes
    what little cancellation kickback is leftover and the magnet continues
    on it's way. We all know that.

    The important thing is that when the fields are pointed toward the induction
    ramp as it comes around, field strength is greater so the rotor magnet will
    start it's run much sooner, almost twice as far away will it pick up the
    ramp when using a stator magnet.

    You see before when I did these tests I did use a stator so the difference
    was only slightly noticeable, but upon re-investigation I must say that the
    fields need to be pointed toward the ramp for best results.

    It gets confusing with so many ramps and the way the ramp is angled
    so I think this all takes time.

    This really made a lot of sense to me after my last video where I showed
    how the opposite side of the rotor magnet was sometimes interfering on
    the repulsion side and now those anomalies are all gone.

    So for me it is back to may original direction when Mack stopped me before
    and asked me if I was really sure of that direction. So seeing how there
    are only two directions I changed it.

    So now I have tried it the other way for awhile.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 10-21-2015, 09:03 AM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by wantomake View Post
    Great video Ufo,
    I noticed you have your magnets at 30° degree opposite of Bromikey on post #583 put rotating same direction.

    Just curious if you get better rotation this way?
    wantomake
    Or are my eyes bad........

    Okay Here it is GUYS @ UFO

    I made these two pictures so we can look at them to see which

    direction makes the most sense. I am stumped now.

    Which way does he go?

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by Ufopolitics View Post
    Hello Guys,


    I can refinish this Ramps and make them look like they have been chromed...basically on the tracking surface facing rotors...Magnetic Fields will slow down on rough, coarse iron surfaces...so, nothing like chrome finish to slide through.


    Regards to All

    Ufopolitics
    Thanks UFO on the comment above, I didn't know.

    Mack will be here soon enough to set the record straight on your nice

    set up. You really are a good man for this job. I am not for sure on this

    but I think your new rotor is backwards? I am getting mixed up. You see

    the reason I say that, is because the last video was better than this one.

    I see your beautiful new plastic, it is so nice and the forks are the same

    but the rotor magnet has been changed so that now the 30 degrees is, I

    think, the wrong way? It worked way better before.

    And Mack did say it was right on the first video.



    The way we get to a 30 degree angle is irrelevant. Excuse Me.


    Just havin a bit of UFO, don't mind me. I am here to help so that's the

    way it is going to be. I hope.



    I don't know, maybe flip the rotor over? I am trying to think.

    Just put the old one back on.


    You see this is like the way I was doing it before and I thought we had

    agreed that I was going the wrong way? I think I was going the wrong

    way because now it seems to work better where the leading edge being

    closet to the stator .

    It is good to try it both ways. You will see that this way is backwards.

    These are my thoughts and like I said Mack will be here soon enough.


    One more thing. I tried what you tried on the attraction side by spreading

    out the forks? Yeah and it made my rotor magnet stick.



    Nice work. I am going to try it again and let you know. Try it the other way.

    There is always a 30 and 60 degree angle on either side depending.

    I'll check it again to see if it makes more sense in the long run concerning

    the way the rotor magnet faces a ramp from a distance.



    You have me thinking again. But one thing I can tell you beyond a shadow

    of a doubt, your other rotor kicked out a magnet on the repulsion side

    like it should be. This experiment proves it. So now you know.

    Last edited by BroMikey; 10-31-2015, 07:05 AM.

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  • wantomake
    replied
    which way

    Great video Ufo,
    I noticed you have your magnets at 30° degree opposite of Bromikey on post #583 put rotating same direction.

    Just curious if you get better rotation this way?
    wantomake
    Or are my eyes bad........

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    Testing different Ramp set up...

    Hello Guys,

    [VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_w8qgtCCjw&feature=youtu.be[/VIDEO]

    TESTING RAMPS III

    Here is a video on the whole new set up am working on now...And...Idk if you guys had noticed, but I have changed the way I had the 30º angle configuration previously by the one shown by Mack on Page 15, Post 442

    And not like I had it in previews build on videos as well in all my previous CAD's

    Big difference there, much easier to adjust center line and mounting not so complicated (thanks Mack!)...so I had to re-adjust almost everything...and ended up remaking a new rotor...a new base and stand...plus the rest...

    Now, this small, 1/4 " cube magnets...are a piece of crap...N-52, N-42's from K&J Magnetics... it is about their very weak pulling force which is actually much less than what they list them for. They only Max pull in class 1 (steel/magnet) not even 3 lbs. And on top of that they have terrible differences between all...far from finding a pair that is close enough...

    I bet on bigger magnets the differences would be much less, and small errors in parameters...plus the huge pulling force of 21 lbs...

    However...I am going to get this Motor running even if it moves like a Clock...on low batteries...

    I am still refining the bottom repulse ramp...as I make more of them to complete the next step of a second Module or Node right next to this one, (on 60º right towards rotation)...to see more and longer "continuity" of movement...

    I can refinish this Ramps and make them look like they have been chromed...basically on the tracking surface facing rotors...Magnetic Fields will slow down on rough, coarse iron surfaces...so, nothing like chrome finish to slide through.

    On the other thing I wanted to say is that by having just one bolt/nut, far away from magnetic interact area, ramps ends vibrate when rotor magnets passes by...this means losses...so I am building like a plastic piece to slide tight, sandwiched between stator and tines.


    Regards to All


    Ufopolitics
    Last edited by Ufopolitics; 10-20-2015, 09:36 PM.

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  • tachyoncatcher
    replied
    Same Here

    Ditto here Mack. I'm not even close to discouragement. Actually quite excited. !

    Randy

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  • Siggi1974
    replied
    Still in

    Hi All,

    Just to let you know, that I am also still in. I have my basic setup done and am testing first ramps on repulsion side. I already get a good throwout acceleartion with one ramp (3mm thickness)but major problems with drag during entering phase. Good ramps are not that easy to build and cut. My CNC is not made for milling steel. I use 12x12mm cubes N48 magnets on a diameter of 300mm for the rotor. The stator is just two of them. Distance of rotor to stator magnet is approximately 10mm. The first step is done and works perfect with my setup, exactly like described by Mack. Unfortunately I do not have enough time to work constantly...so also only step by step It would be brilliant if we could work out a kind of To Do list or Check List for the ramps to improve them faster, means what to do, if the rotor behaves like this or that for repulsion side and attraction side.

    Thanks Mack for everything you have given us until now. We have just begun and will end when this beast is running.

    Best regards
    Siggi

    Leave a comment:


  • wantomake
    replied
    Still experimenting

    Not to be a yes man but I agree Ufo.

    I have the 1/2" N-52 mags, same size 12" rotor made from same material as yours Madmack.

    The exact fabrication of ramps has slowed me but opened understanding of how it works. No excuses, no useless comments.

    wantomake

    Leave a comment:


  • Ufopolitics
    replied
    It is absolutely Not your fault...at all.

    Originally posted by MadMack View Post

    Everyone,
    I hope you all realize that this motor is the sum of separate effects. Someone elsewhere keeps insisting that you perform tests for a motor and not doing so right now is somehow proof that I am full of it and just jerking you around. I hope you are not letting him discourage you because if you are then you might as well give up now. He can't seem to get it into his head that you do not have a complete motor to test yet. We are working on the separate components. After you have the whole motor then by all means run all the performance tests you want.

    I have been trying to get you all to see the individual components, the effects they must have, and how they will add up into the final motor assembly. If you are trying to get full rotation now, please wait. It would be like trying to get a 4 stroke gas engine to run without the camshaft.

    I have listed 6 steps to accomplish. You guys are at step 4-5 and struggling. Just know that this is to be expected because it's the most difficult part. Don't give up now. Get the rotor to accelerate past the stator magnets having more pull toward the stator magnets with the 2 ramps vs. either ramp by itself. That's all for right now. Don't worry about any back drag as the rotor leaves the end of the ramp. That is dealt with in step 6.

    Step 6 is the final step where you get the rotor to maintain its momentum after passing the stator magnet, then transition the rotor magnet from one ramp to the next ramp without loss. Transformer steel for the final ramps will be mandatory then and we will be working with 4 stator magnets. When you get this step done you will have everything you need to know to build the running motor.

    Regards,
    Mack

    Mack,

    It is absolutely NOT Your fault that WE, all replicators on this Thread,(and any other around) have NOT come up as of now with EXACTLY the same spec set up as you have described in your first, second and third posts.

    So far I have NOT seen ONE SINGLE identical replication based on your description...
    I, include Myself, of course, within that group of members here that are NOT doing the supposed work.

    Assuming that it "should" work with "similar" components...IS NOT the EXACT WAY.

    I assumed that 1/4 cubes as long as they would be of N-52 would work...however, the pulling force from this magnets does NOT work the same way -in scale- as the geometry does.

    It is NOT the same a magnet that can pull 20 pounds as one that can ONLY pulls 3.0 pounds...

    You have rendered here a motor that has work for you with certain spec's...but the actual relationship based on required pulling force to be either scaled up or down has not been established as of now...and maybe you don't even know it yourself, just because if something WORKS for you a certain way...THEN, WHY IN THIS WORLD SHOULD WE CHANGE IT BEFORE MAKING WHAT WORKS TO PERFORM ??!!

    I believe You should just IGNORE all comments from the stupid People...unfortunately this world is FULL OF THEM...a MAIN REASON WHY...we are ALL still dependent of OIL, GAS and Diesel Farting Machines!!

    Until someone comes up with the IDENTICAL setup you have described here...and claims it don't work...ONLY THEN...We should pay attention to...BUT no comments Till WE ALL SEE IT ON A VIDEO...Period.

    Otherwise is just PURE BS.

    Kind Regards


    Ufopolitics

    Leave a comment:


  • mkt3920
    replied
    Mack,
    Not discouraged at all, just not used to metal working (ramps) so moving slow at that stage. Thank you for staying active here.
    Kent

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  • lorinrandone
    replied
    MadMac
    Cristian,
    Nice try. When you can simply let go of the rotor and see it accelerate past the magnets you will be on the right track. A 122mm rotor is too small for the 1/2” square neos that I used. I assume a rotor that small could be built with scaled down components but I think it would be difficult.


    Mack Thanks, as always, very helpful which indicates. I'll try to build a bigger rotor.



    Everyone,
    I hope you all realize that this motor is the sum of separate effects. Someone elsewhere keeps insisting that you perform tests for a motor and not doing so right now is somehow proof that I am full of it and just jerking you around. I hope you are not letting him discourage you because if you are then you might as well give up now. He can't seem to get it into his head that you do not have a complete motor to test yet. We are working on the separate components. After you have the whole motor then by all means run all the performance tests you want.




    You started this thread. If you want to continue, great, if not - this is question of its strategy and its dispozicion to cope with the insult and provocation. I personally was expecting this sort of thing. My advice as an person a lot older than you, is - no more respond to provocations.
    For others (everyone problem) I see will no longer goes any more. It is wrong and it does not have to end this way. UFO que te paso? ¿Se te ha estropeado el AUTOCAD O QUE?

    a good day for everyone cristian alba.
    Last edited by lorinrandone; 10-20-2015, 04:35 AM.

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  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by MadMack View Post
    BroMikey,
    Some good observations in the video. For every unwanted effect, try to find a way to minimize that effect. The split Y has some negative rotational force associated with it as the tines move apart. What will counteract that? A greater angle of descent between the tines and the rotor. You all see that as the gap between the ramp and the rotor decreases, the rotor continues to rotate. Why not use that knowledge to full effect? You also see the rotor can stop right where the ramp ends.

    As for the measuring device, you could use rubber bands and measure the stretch if you wanted to.

    Regards,
    Mack


    Thanks Mack, you are my hero. I been coming to sites for years and very
    few project owners are on the level. I really thought I was on my own and was
    going to have to get stock in uranium.

    Yes I am pouring over your last instruction to make sureI reconsider
    these words during the next set of experimental data collection. I may
    narrow the tips of the tines right at the stator. My curve is not hugging the
    circle so I can not get an accurate declination to the end of the ramp.(you understand)

    Yeah I hear ya on bands




    Originally posted by MadMack View Post

    Everyone,

    Someone elsewhere keeps insisting that you perform tests for a motor and not doing so right now is somehow proof that I am full of it and just jerking you around. I hope you are not letting him discourage you because if you are then you might as well give up now. He can't seem to get it into his head .................................................. .............

    I have been trying to get you all to see the individual components, the effects they must have, and how they will add up into the final motor assembly. If you are trying to get full rotation now, please wait. It would be like trying to get a 4 stroke gas engine to run without the camshaft.

    Regards,
    Mack
    Look Mack I heard you the first time, you won't have to tell me twice or
    defend yourself against me. I think you are one of the nicest men I have
    met on these forums and anyone taking a shot at you is just plain belligerent.

    Those people won't come to this forum with their "F" words and dirty language because they know I would beat them to a verbal bloody pulp.

    And they can't have someone scolding them for their stupidity and dishonest
    behavior in front of all of their tag alongs, now can they?

    Either way I am sorry Mack, I'll apologize for these people who think they
    know it all or can't believe it is so simple so they act insulted. Then they
    proceed to make up lies in the middle of their temper tantrum because
    they are so high minded they can't just shut up and do what they are told.
    Last edited by BroMikey; 10-19-2015, 08:46 PM.

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