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Problem with Barbosa Leal circuit. What to do?

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  • Problem with Barbosa Leal circuit. What to do?

    Hello, I'm trying to replicate the Barbosa Leal (energy from the ground) circuit, but I've a problem. When I try to switch on the load connected to the output of the circuit, the automatic protection circuit from home switches off like when you do a short-circuit.

    What can be causing this?

    Here there is the schematic I'm using.
    Last edited by Magnethos; 07-02-2015, 05:45 PM.
    "A knot cannot be undone, without knowing the way it was made" Aristotle

  • #2
    The circuit breaker is a current balanced system where the current drawn from the AC plus side is returned through the AC neutral. However if that balance is disturbed by a current leakage to ground, an in balance results which is detected and throws out the trip!!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Dupe View Post
      The circuit breaker is a current balanced system where the current drawn from the AC plus side is returned through the AC neutral. However if that balance is disturbed by a current leakage to ground, an in balance results which is detected and throws out the trip!!
      Oh sorry, I forgot to modify the picture.
      There is a small difference. I've updated the picture in the first post. Look again and say me if you keep thinking the same.
      "A knot cannot be undone, without knowing the way it was made" Aristotle

      Comment


      • #4
        Your drawing can't possibly work. What you have is basically a transformer with the secondary side (the heavy black wires) shorted out. So the input current will go as high as it can until the circuit breaker trips. Do you have a drawing or link to the drawing you went by to build your circuit?

        And only ground fault breakers (GFI) are designed to trip out on an unbalanced condition. Regular breakers don't care where the current goes as long as the current is not too high.
        Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them your enemy. We can disagree without attacking someone. This means YOU especially BroMikey.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by citfta View Post
          Your drawing can't possibly work. What you have is basically a transformer with the secondary side (the heavy black wires) shorted out. So the input current will go as high as it can until the circuit breaker trips. Do you have a drawing or link to the drawing you went by to build your circuit?

          And only ground fault breakers (GFI) are designed to trip out on an unbalanced condition. Regular breakers don't care where the current goes as long as the current is not too high.
          Here is the link I watched to copy the circuit.
          EDIT:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbNvUZT4NC4
          As far I know, it's the same configuration as the guy is using. But after reading you, it seems that I've modified something and for that reason mine doesn't works.
          The guy in the video is using a circuit breaker like this:



          Mine is like this:
          "A knot cannot be undone, without knowing the way it was made" Aristotle

          Comment


          • #6
            Here you've a more detailed schematic of what I'm doing.

            I've also thought if connecting the Earth's ground to the power grid's ground in the same place where I connect the toroid transformer could be a problem. That can be causing the problem?

            "A knot cannot be undone, without knowing the way it was made" Aristotle

            Comment


            • #7
              I watched the video. His toroidal transformer has a lot of turns on the primary side. This limits the current that can flow from the grid. According to the current going in and the current in the loop circuit there must be at least 50 turns or more in the primary winding of the toroidal transformer. Do you know how many turns you have in your primary winding? And also the amount of turns of the secondary that are not inside the toroid will have an effect on the current in the secondary. And the extra turns need to be held tightly together like he shows in the video.

              You should also be aware that it looks like all he is doing is just taking the hot side of the AC line and feeding through the load and into the ground. You can leave all the toroid and heavy wire out and just connect the load directly to the hot wire and the ground and do the same thing. Only the electric company is not going to like you doing that. And they also won't like you connecting this device up either.

              I don't see any evidence of extra energy in this circuit. The watt meter is not going to read right when only one side of the line is carrying current through the watt meter. And that is what he is doing when he has the watt meter before the transformer. His amp meter also is showing that same amount of current coming from the grid as the amount going through the load. So I don't understand why anyone thinks there is extra energy there.

              Respectfully,
              Carroll
              Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them your enemy. We can disagree without attacking someone. This means YOU especially BroMikey.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by citfta View Post
                I watched the video. His toroidal transformer has a lot of turns on the primary side. This limits the current that can flow from the grid. According to the current going in and the current in the loop circuit there must be at least 50 turns or more in the primary winding of the toroidal transformer. Do you know how many turns you have in your primary winding? And also the amount of turns of the secondary that are not inside the toroid will have an effect on the current in the secondary. And the extra turns need to be held tightly together like he shows in the video.
                I've checked the website of the maker of the toroid and I cannot find the number of turns of the toroid. So I cannot answer that question. But it seems that it has a lot of turns, maybe more than 50.

                You said me that I've the secondary (the black wire) shorted and it was impossible to run any load because it's shortcircuited. The guy in the video as you've seen is using a closed loop (shortcircuit) and his works good.
                "A knot cannot be undone, without knowing the way it was made" Aristotle

                Comment


                • #9
                  Well

                  Hi Magnethos,
                  I agree with citfta. All I see in those videos are poor measurements and a misunderstanding of Mains. But, in the spirit of seeking understanding, if you want to proceed I would change up a couple things. Your toroid transformer has AC in and DC out. This means it has to, at least, have a couple FWBRs under that tape. I would remove them. Actually, "I" would remove the secondary windings. Next I would connect a load in series with the primary of the toroid on the Phase side. Maybe a 100watt bulb between the breaker and your next tap in your circuit. Then I would test the transformer without any load or large wire in it. The bulb should NOT light up. If the bulb lights up, Your transformer's primary winding has a short in it. Assuming all is well, measure power consumption using a amp meter on the "Phase" wire. Not some Kilowatt meter. Calculate your watts from there. The light bulb will act as a safety should something get shorted. If this device works as advertised, the bulb should not light or at the very most, very dimly. This is what I would do. I'm not suggesting anyone should try the above

                  If you give us the dimensions of your toroid, I can give you a close idea of the primary windings assuming it is made from silicon steel. Most AC power transformers are.

                  Good Luck,

                  Randy
                  _

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tachyoncatcher View Post
                    Hi Magnethos,
                    I agree with citfta. All I see in those videos are poor measurements and a misunderstanding of Mains. But, in the spirit of seeking understanding, if you want to proceed I would change up a couple things. Your toroid transformer has AC in and DC out. This means it has to, at least, have a couple FWBRs under that tape. I would remove them. Actually, "I" would remove the secondary windings. Next I would connect a load in series with the primary of the toroid on the Phase side. Maybe a 100watt bulb between the breaker and your next tap in your circuit. Then I would test the transformer without any load or large wire in it. The bulb should NOT light up. If the bulb lights up, Your transformer's primary winding has a short in it. Assuming all is well, measure power consumption using a amp meter on the "Phase" wire. Not some Kilowatt meter. Calculate your watts from there. The light bulb will act as a safety should something get shorted. If this device works as advertised, the bulb should not light or at the very most, very dimly. This is what I would do. I'm not suggesting anyone should try the above

                    If you give us the dimensions of your toroid, I can give you a close idea of the primary windings assuming it is made from silicon steel. Most AC power transformers are.

                    Good Luck,

                    Randy
                    Hello tachyoncatcher,
                    The toroid transformer output is AC, not DC, sorry for that wrong information I said. I've checked it.
                    So you suggest to me to try to connect a load in series with the primary. The phase wire would be the primary of the toroid on the phase side, but.. what about the neutral wire? what would be the neutral?

                    Some user in the other forum has said to replace the power grid ground connection with other ground, like a rod. I've tried it and it still doesn't work.
                    "A knot cannot be undone, without knowing the way it was made" Aristotle

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Agreement

                      Originally posted by Magnethos View Post
                      Hello tachyoncatcher,
                      The toroid transformer output is AC, not DC, sorry for that wrong information I said. I've checked it.
                      So you suggest to me to try to connect a load in series with the primary. The phase wire would be the primary of the toroid on the phase side, but.. what about the neutral wire? what would be the neutral?

                      Some user in the other forum has said to replace the power grid ground connection with other ground, like a rod. I've tried it and it still doesn't work.
                      Your drawing is showing an earth ground. If this is coming from the Mains, then I would change that. That circuit is simply cheating meters if Mains neutral and ground are used. I would use a ground rod put in the earth. Not a water pipe. In many locale, water pipes are "grounded" to the Mains ground.

                      When you say it still doesn't work, what do you mean exactly? The breaker is still popping? Then follow the direction I gave earlier.

                      Good Luck,

                      Randy
                      _

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tachyoncatcher View Post
                        Your drawing is showing an earth ground. If this is coming from the Mains, then I would change that. That circuit is simply cheating meters if Mains neutral and ground are used. I would use a ground rod put in the earth. Not a water pipe. In many locale, water pipes are "grounded" to the Mains ground.

                        When you say it still doesn't work, what do you mean exactly? The breaker is still popping? Then follow the direction I gave earlier.

                        Good Luck,

                        Randy
                        I started trying to use the power socket ground but a guy suggested to me to use another different ground, so I used a water pipe. In both cases the breaker pops. Another guy has said me that I'll need to use an inverter or a generator and don't use the power socket of the power grid because it's grounded. So I thought about using a square wave inverter (the only one I've) and try to light a 25 watt incandescent bulb.

                        When I say it sill doesn't work I mean that the breaker is still popping.
                        "A knot cannot be undone, without knowing the way it was made" Aristotle

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Magnethos View Post
                          I started trying to use the power socket ground but a guy suggested to me to use another different ground, so I used a water pipe. In both cases the breaker pops. Another guy has said me that I'll need to use an inverter or a generator and don't use the power socket of the power grid because it's grounded. So I thought about using a square wave inverter (the only one I've) and try to light a 25 watt incandescent bulb.

                          When I say it sill doesn't work I mean that the breaker is still popping.
                          Hello Magnethos. Your questions about why the breaker keeps popping have already been answered in this same thread, but for some reason you are ignoring those answers. The breaker is either popping because you are drawing too much current and exceeding the max current for the breaker, or if the breaker is a type that also detects an imbalance in current between the phase wire and the neutral wire, then with the setup you are using, which will definitely cause such a current imbalance due to the phase wire passing current to a load through a ground loop, it will pop the breaker due to the current imbalance.

                          You have to test this type of device arrangement using a battery and inverter. You need a half decent clamp on ammeter to measure the current in the primary (both hot and neutral wires) and the current in the secondary which can be very high if you don't wind a few turns of the shorted secondary wire around the outside of the toroid core. The secondary wire should pass through the toroid center only once, or also the secondary current will be much too high. A few people here have tested this Barbosa and Leal single toroid setup including myself, and did not see anything out of the ordinary. If you use a battery and inverter, the device does not work at all, or so I and a few others have found in our tests. Barbosa and Leal did indicate that their devices should work with a battery and inverter in their patent application docs however. Be careful if you are experimenting with the mains or an inverter. The voltage is high enough to potentially kill you.
                          Last edited by level; 07-03-2015, 07:38 PM.
                          level

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by level View Post
                            Hello Magnethos. Your questions about why the breaker keeps popping have already been answered in this same thread, but for some reason you are ignoring those answers. The breaker is either popping because you are drawing too much current and exceeding the max current for the breaker, or if the breaker is a type that also detects an imbalance in current between the phase wire and the neutral wire, then with the setup you are using, which will definitely cause such a current imbalance due to the phase wire passing current to a load through a ground loop, it will pop the breaker due to the current imbalance.

                            You have to test this type of device arrangement using a battery and inverter. You need a half decent clamp on ammeter to measure the current in the primary (both hot and neutral wires) and the current in the secondary which can be very high if you don't wind a few turns of the shorted secondary wire around the outside of the toroid core. The secondary wire should pass through the toroid center only once, or also the secondary current will be much too high. A few people here have tested this Barbosa and Leal single toroid setup including myself, and did not see anything out of the ordinary. If you use a battery and inverter, the device does not work at all, or so I and a few others have found in our tests. Barbosa and Leal did indicate that their devices should work with a battery and inverter in their patent application docs however. Be careful if you are experimenting with the mains or an inverter. The voltage is high enough to potentially kill you.
                            Oh sorry, about the answers of other users. Sometimes is difficult to me to understand the whole concept at once.

                            I've discarded the possibility of drawing too much current because I'm trying to light a small 25 incandescent bulb. I don't know how many watts the toroid is consuming because I don't have a clamp.

                            The secondary (the black thick wire) passes only once through the toroid center.

                            So you suggest that if I use an inverter the device won't work at all? It only works if you plug it into the wall socket?
                            "A knot cannot be undone, without knowing the way it was made" Aristotle

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Magnethos View Post
                              Oh sorry, about the answers of other users. Sometimes is difficult to me to understand the whole concept at once.

                              I've discarded the possibility of drawing too much current because I'm trying to light a small 25 incandescent bulb. I don't know how many watts the toroid is consuming because I don't have a clamp.

                              The secondary (the black thick wire) passes only once through the toroid center.

                              So you suggest that if I use an inverter the device won't work at all? It only works if you plug it into the wall socket?
                              Hello Magnethos. I can only confirm what I have seen in my own tests. A few others have tested and could not get it to work either. My earth ground was a copper water pipe that runs horizontally buried in the ground. It is possible that you need a really extensive earth ground rod array system to get this setup to work, but with my more basic earth ground I did not see any unusual effect.

                              You must wrap a few turns of the secondary wire closely around the outside of the toroid to limit the current in the secondary. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think I was measuring around 80 Amps on the secondary with a few turns of the secondary wrapped around the toroid. The amount of current that flows in the secondary will also depend on the number of turns in your primary winding. You really do need a clamp on ammeter to test with a Barbosa and Leal arrangement so you can monitor the current levels closely.

                              Your mains breaker may be popping due to a current imbalance between the phase and neutral (ground fault). You won't have this problem if you use a battery and inverter, but then you probably won't get the single transformer Barbosa and Leal setup to work at all if you use a battery and inverter. At least not if you use it the way you showed in your diagram, which does match one of Barbosa and Leal's patent drawings, more or less.
                              Last edited by level; 07-03-2015, 08:15 PM.
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