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Barbosa and Leal Devices - Info and Replication Details

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  • shylo
    replied
    Hi All, Can the whole thing be reduced to 10percent?
    I have an variable transformer with a dial , run it at 12vac ,less rods and smaller, instead of 8' long, 9.6in long?
    Will the variac run off a 300w inverter without blowing it?
    I had 2 , now I only have 1 inverter , and I don't want to lose it.
    Thanks artv

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    @Level

    One more thing. I have the inverters over here with the horse power to
    start up my frig as it delivers the full lock rotor amps of 1200 amps, but if I only use one battery it won't start up because asking a small battery to give 1200 amps on start up every time is a bit much.

    Having done all of these tests also helps me to realize that Clarence little battery is getting some huge help from somewhere.

    Just thought you might like to know that.

    Also if I run my deep cycles let's say a full 200 amp hour battery set weighing around 250 pounds of batteries I still need to put a starter type battery or marine battery in parallel with those, to get it to start up right.

    And Clarence gets his to start with a single battery? This shows me from my experiences that extra energy is entering his system with only a single puny battery to run THAT many devices.

    Check it out sometime, fire up even a 400 watts device for longer than 5 minutes. I used 5 minutes because I don't want you to ruin your plates.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by level View Post
    @All

    Just finished doing a test to see the rate of discharge of a 12v 75 Ah lead acid battery over a 12 hour period, with the battery, a 750W inverter, and an intelligent battery charger (3 stage - 4A, 12A, 25A), with no captor transformer setup used, all connected in a self looping arrangement.
    The starting open circuit voltage on the battery was around 13.3.
    The battery charger was set to automatic mode.

    After starting up the self loop, the battery voltage quickly dropped to about 12.9V and continued falling from there over the next half hour.
    After about a half an hour the battery voltage settled around 12.7V and stayed there for about one more hour.
    Now about 1 1/2 hours into the self run test the battery voltage started to very slowly drop from there.
    After the 12 hour self loop period was elapsed the battery voltage was reading 12.42V (while still under load). So it was a drop from about 13.3V (unloaded) to 12.42V (loaded) after 12 hours of self looping (with no captor loop).
    The battery charger maintained a very steady charge current of around 1.6A to 1.7A on the battery for the whole 12 hour period, after the initial first settling down period of about 15 minutes.
    The output power from the inverter, which was powering the battery charger, measured between 35W to 36W for the whole 12 hour time period. This was measured using a plug-in wattmeter. The inverter case was quite warm (around 40C or 104F degrees) for the whole 12 hour period.

    It is interesting to me that the battery charger did not increase the charge current through the whole 12 hour period. I don't know why it did not change.
    Edit: Did a bit of more investigating with the battery charger. The battery charger will have a charge current of around 1.6A to 1.7A if it sees a battery of about this size as around fully charged. It looks like the battery charger detection circuitry was not detecting the dropping voltage on the battery due to way things were connected in or whatever. The battery charger is not an expensive type, so it may have some glitches in its detection circuitry.

    As the battery continued to discharge, the intelligent battery charger charge current should have been slowly ramping up, but it remained steady at 1.6A to 1.7 A for the whole 12 hours.
    When I tried this same test with a smaller approximately 30 to 35 Ah battery earlier, the charger began to ramp up its charge current to the battery within about 10 to 15 minutes, and the charge current continued to ramp up higher and higher within the first hour. This smaller capacity battery had discharged to about 12.35 volts within one hour in self loop mode with the same charger and inverter.

    Has anyone else tried this test? If so, what are your results?
    The idea here is to give something quantitative to compare to before adding a captor loop arrangement into the self loop.

    We can only imagine how many minutes your battery would last running a frig.
    The 35 watt load you ran was like running a night light.

    Put a man size load on it watch the nightmare begin for your battery. A 25amp run and a 1200 amp start up load. That little box won't start it up.

    So you could run a couple of fans or enough lights to equal 200 watts.

    Your battery is going to have a stroke.

    Leave a comment:


  • BroMikey
    replied
    Originally posted by clarence View Post
    Hello,

    Still trying to kick Barbosa and Leal for their success when they achieved it BOTH ways,, my my.

    Clarence
    Of course, when people don't understand, they flip out in fear. Must be stealling that power then

    Leave a comment:


  • dragon
    replied
    Originally posted by a.king21 View Post
    Dragon: I find your amperage experiments fascinating. I have ordered some nichrome wire. Meanwhile can you say if it is possible to boil a cup of water - enough for a cup of tea - using 20 watts and if so how long will it take?
    With the results I've seen so far I'm quite sure you can. Since there is nothing "magic" here it would take the same amount of energy to heat a given quantity but in a different time frame.

    My water heater elements have been wired for 120 volt operation and I fire it up once a day for 15 minutes. The element represents a 4500 watt load on the batteries. So If I can reheat and maintain a given temp with 50 watts or less continuously the energy is the same over time but I can do it without maxing out the system. A 4 amp load continuous is nothing where a 375 amp draw is quite taxing on both battery and inverter.

    Leave a comment:


  • citfta
    replied
    If the captor was connected as shown in the B&L patent you would be correct. The captor would be a capacitor. As Clarence has it connected with the end opposite the ground rods connected to the neutral line then it is acting as a transformer.

    I do like your method of determining the phase of a transformer primary to secondary. Simple and easy to do. Thanks for that idea.

    Originally posted by Minsky View Post
    @All,
    Having said that I realized people are going to assume that the Captor is a regular 'transformer'. Far from it all and such assumptions should be thrown out the window. As Clarence has pointed out repeatedly.

    Thanks.
    Carroll

    Leave a comment:


  • Minsky
    replied
    Captor is not a transformer

    @All,
    Having said that I realized people are going to assume that the Captor is a regular 'transformer'. Far from it all and such assumptions should be thrown out the window. As Clarence has pointed out repeatedly.

    Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Minsky
    replied
    phase in a transformer

    @All, Many a time the phase of the transformer primary is not known, like in a car coil. In situations like this it would be necessary to determine the phase by measuring the phase difference with a oscilloscope. If an oscilloscope is not around it can still be determined by following this procedure.

    1. Connect the primary and the secondary as shown by the dotted line in the figure(a)

    2. A low voltage A.C source like a 15 vac wall wart may be used to excite the transformer.

    3. Measure V1, V2 and V3.

    If V3 = V1 - V2 then the primary and secondary are in phase.

    If V3 = V1 + V2 then the primary and secondary are out of phase.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • a.king21
    replied
    Dragon: I find your amperage experiments fascinating. I have ordered some nichrome wire. Meanwhile can you say if it is possible to boil a cup of water - enough for a cup of tea - using 20 watts and if so how long will it take?

    Leave a comment:


  • a.king21
    replied
    Clarence: I found your last detailed post very hard to follow, and I am afraid I cannot envisage what you meant to convey.
    My view on the experiment is this:
    There is no harm in failing.
    I admire every experimenter.
    It is far better than doing nothing and quoting from books.
    There is no harm in partial failure/success.

    I understand you don't want to get bogged down in measurements, who does?

    I am still not clear how effective your replication is. It is now several weeks since you built your device.
    But take your time, keep experimenting.
    And good luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • level
    replied
    Originally posted by clarence View Post
    Hello,

    Still trying to kick Barbosa and Leal for their success when they achieved it BOTH ways,, my my.

    Clarence
    Hello Clarence. Nothing I said in my comment is a 'kick' to Barbosa and Leal. I just pointed out a fact about mains ground loop issues and gave some suggestions on how to test for them. How you can be perceiving these sort of comments as some sort of attack is beyond me. It is good practical info that anyone experimenting with these type of devices using earth ground should fully understand. Nothing more.

    Clarence, I remember you from the Don Smith thread where you were always very polite and friendly. This is why I didn't hesitate to help start this thread for you. My sole interest in this topic is trying to understand if there really is something to the Barbosa and Leal devices or not. I have a very open mind, but I am interested in things that can actually work and be confirmed through experiments and tests.

    I have been conducting my own experiments for years now along these lines. We have all encountered a lot of nonsense and false or mistaken claims out there however, so I shouldn't have to tell you that to employ some caution and critical thinking is an essential part of the toolkit for any serious experimenter in this area. That is not something negative at all Clarence. It is just the reality of the situation. I am rooting for you and your efforts even if I am not convinced yet that your setup is drawing in power from the ground. I appreciate you sharing what you have shared about your device construction details, but info about actual performance of your setup is still lacking. You are not obligated to share anything you don't want to share, but as long as details about how your setup performs are still not made clear, then others just can't tell where you are really at.
    Good luck with your further experiments!

    Last edited by level; 04-27-2015, 05:20 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • clarence
    replied
    Loop-de-loop

    Originally posted by level View Post
    Hi Kensurplus. I have pointed out in this thread already that if you are powering from the mains and using the mains hot wire to power a load, with the other side of the load going to earth ground, that there will be a ground loop. Yes, it is probably common in many countries for the mains neutral to be earth grounded at the house service and also at power poles as well. Any tests with the Barbosa and Leal devices and the Lorrie Matchett device using the mains will not be valid tests without comparing results to using a battery and inverter, as due to the ground loop power will still be coming from the mains. IMO. these two type of device setups really have to be tested with a battery and inverter.

    A simple test for experimenters if they are not convinced of this is to try it with the mains and then try the same thing with a battery and inverter and compare the results. If it doesn't work the same or doesn't work at all using a battery and inverter, then you know that a mains ground loop is what is providing the power difference. Really any OU device that depends on earth ground to work should not be powered from the mains to avoid mains ground loop issues. If some earth grounded device still works when using a battery and inverter with no mains connection at all, then you may well be onto something.

    Hello,

    Still trying to kick Barbosa and Leal for their success when they achieved it BOTH ways,, my my.

    Clarence

    Leave a comment:


  • level
    replied
    Originally posted by kenssurplus View Post
    Clarence, and Wanttomake,
    I do not know if this is common outside of my area, in other countries (Brasil, G.B., S.A. etc.) but the neutral wire from the power company in the USA where I live, grounds each service, plus there is a ground wire running down each power pole into the ground. Somewhere I came across info stating they ground every other pole (not sure if indeed this is true). I can see a ground on every pole that has a pole pig on it. So, the nearest ground would not be the closest substation, unless you are the only customer on your local distribution line. Also, it depends on if you are served with a line that has 3 phase available at the pole (so 3 to 4 wires at the pole) or if you only have single phase (two wires on the pole) how close your nearest ground is.
    Hi Kensurplus. Yes, I have pointed out in this thread already that if you are powering from the mains and using the mains hot wire to power a device or load, with the other side of the load going to earth ground, that there will be a strong likelihood of a ground loop. Yes, it is probably common in many countries for the mains neutral to be earth grounded at the house service and also at power poles as well. Any tests with the Barbosa and Leal devices and the Lorrie Matchett device using the mains will not be valid tests without comparing results to using a battery and inverter, as due to the ground loop power will still be coming from the mains. IMO, these two type of device setups really have to be tested with a battery and inverter.

    A simple test for experimenters if they are not convinced of this is to try it with the mains and then try the same thing with a battery and inverter and compare the results. If it doesn't work the same or doesn't work at all using a battery and inverter, then you know that a mains ground loop is what is providing the power difference. Really any OU device that depends on earth ground to work should not be powered from the mains to avoid mains ground loop issues. If some earth grounded OU device still works when using a battery or battery and inverter with no mains connection at all, then you may well be onto something.

    Last edited by level; 04-27-2015, 02:39 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • dragon
    replied
    I did a multitude of testing this last weekend - some inconclusive, some success and some very practical applications that I'll be working on.

    To start with, experimenting with nichrome and the possibilities of heating water with only current output. Very successful. Very low wattage to bring the wires to a temp that would burn paper - reading over 500*F on the wires with less than 20 watts. Very pleased with the outcome of this. Anyone need a 20 watt toaster?

    So on to the other aspect - generating electricity from this configuration... some interesting developments... anyone follow Dr.Stifflers work? I searched for the strongest signal I could find on ground - remember B&L stated that you could remove all input and still have an output, to me this means they had a resonant circuit connection to the earth. The current loop of the transformer connected to the wire loop to ground forming an LC series resonant circuit. My coil measured in at 10uh and the final twisted connection was in the area of 16pf. I spent 3 hours yesterday adjusting and tweaking the coil loop altering capacitance to match the ground signal but I could get it resonant for very brief self runs. Enough output to run an LED on an AV... It would run for a bit flicker and go out. Needless to say I wasn't successful in maintaining a resonant structure, with the twisted wire relaxing - body capacitance and environmental changes it was just to many variables to overcome - My test rig wasn't optimal by any means and requires a far more stable layout.

    Anyway, I moved on to the possibility of altering the configuration to provide an output without a direct return path back to the inverter and ran into other interesting things to pursue. Making the primary coil series resonant with the load might actually cause the current in the loop to follow another path. This is inconclusive at this point but certainly an interesting path to pursue.

    For now I'm going to turn my attention to the practical successes and develop these into something I can use now then return to the unknowns...

    Below are diagrams that explain the resonant ground as it would apply to the current loop. There are easier ways of doing this. I'm including the series load circuit that I tested only as a reference. This can cause unwanted chatter in the inverter and the primary tends to hammer the core of the toroid which could cause damage to the inverter. The voltage between the cap and primary, where the neutral to inverter is connected can rise to very high levels. Generally will trip the GFI if the inverter is equipped. Experiment at your own risk -

    Off to build a Ni-chrome drum and several other experimental heaters....

    Big thanks to Level for starting this thread and huge thanks to Clarence for inspiring thought !!!!
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • kenssurplus
    replied
    Every other pole grounded

    Clarence, and Wanttomake,

    I do not know if this is common outside of my area, in other countries (Brasil, G.B., S.A. etc.) but the neutral wire from the power company in the USA where I live, grounds each service, plus there is a ground wire running down each power pole into the ground. Somewhere I came across info stating they ground every other pole (not sure if indeed this is true). I can see a ground on every pole that has a pole pig on it. So, the nearest ground would not be the closest substation, unless you are the only customer on your local distribution line. Also, it depends on if you are served with a line that has 3 phase available at the pole (so 3 to 4 wires at the pole) or if you only have single phase (two wires on the pole) how close your nearest ground is.

    Leave a comment:

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